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PostPosted: Tue Dec 09, 2014 6:06 pm 
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Uruivellas

Joined: Tue May 15, 2012 11:44 pm
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Necromancer already has a lot of class trees and difficulty assigning class points. They don't have nearly enough generic trees and are dependent on getting celestial/light from an escort or playing a race that rewards heavy generic investment in order to have somewhere to put generic points. My cursory examination of necro winners supports this - everyone that I checked had celestial/light.

So, my suggestion is to make the Animus tree generic.

Out of all their trees it is the one with most utility, so it's a good candidate and fits thematically into generic. It's also not unprecedented to have a class exclusive tree as generic, as was done with Dream Forge tree for Solipsists (it was originally a class tree and it's class exclusive).

What do you think?

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 09, 2014 6:39 pm 
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Spiderkin

Joined: Sun Dec 22, 2013 2:22 pm
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I think that your assesment concerning class points vs generics points is accurate. Even a 12 point investment in racials let's you get pretty much everything you want on the generics side (Except premonition which has a non-negliable max mana cost): And that is with Celestial/Light.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 09, 2014 7:10 pm 
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Sher'Tul Godslayer

Joined: Tue Jun 18, 2013 10:46 pm
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Animus seems like a good candidate for being Generic, since it's a heal and a bunch of resource-helper stuff.

While we're trimming Class talents, I'd like for Lichdom to move to Generic -- or a Prodigy -- instead of a Class talent which must be 5/5'd to be useful.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 10, 2014 12:32 am 
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Perspiring Physicist

Joined: Sun Sep 09, 2012 7:43 am
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Would need some modifications to be generic, since it is only useful to Necromancers.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 10, 2014 12:54 am 
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Uruivellas

Joined: Tue May 15, 2012 11:44 pm
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HousePet wrote:
Would need some modifications to be generic, since it is only useful to Necromancers.


Being generic doesn't necessarily mean it's available to anyone other than Necro, as is the case with Dream Forge, for instance.
Or that mindslayer tree that I don't know the name of.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 10, 2014 12:58 am 
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Sher'Tul Godslayer

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supermini wrote:
Being generic doesn't necessarily mean it's available to anyone other than Necro, as is the case with Dream Forge, for instance.
Or that mindslayer tree that I don't know the name of.
Both of the Mindslayer specific trees.

Also several of the Solipsist trees.

Also there's stuff like Gestures which is class-specific.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 10, 2014 1:09 am 
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Uruivellas

Joined: Sat Aug 24, 2013 5:55 am
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As most of you know, I've made numerous attempts at fixing the Necromancer but here's one that might help fix this problem http://forums.te4.org/viewtopic.php?f=39&t=42943&p=192019#p192019. It's at the bottom of the page.

It changes the function of Animus Hoarder in a big way such that I find it unsuitable for the generic category. However, I made a new generic category and move Blurred Mortality and Lichform to it.

I'm also thinking about eliminating the Ice category in favor of another offensive category… one that uses HousePet's grasping claws with the addition of causing disease… then, the next skill would cause his blood burst effect on any diseased enemy as blight damage which could heal undead. Then, an additional skill would cause further blight damage to any pinned enemy.

The last skill is what I call a "blood golem." It requires that you have a ghoul and a vampire and it consumes both in addition to another soul. The blood golem would have low life and a finite duration. However, it would have no max life and any damage it inflicts would heal it. After it's duration, any damage it has above its starting life is granted to you as a heal. If it ends with less, you would suffer the difference.

I realize that this is a radical change to the Necro but I think it's a good one.

Thoughts?


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 10, 2014 2:16 am 
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Perspiring Physicist

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The difference is that those categories could be used by other classes.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 10, 2014 2:22 am 
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Sher'Tul Godslayer

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Delmuir wrote:
I'm also thinking about eliminating the Ice category in favor of another offensive category…

I realize that this is a radical change to the Necro but I think it's a good one.

Thoughts?
On the one hand, I cautiously like the idea of replacing Ice because I feel that the overlap between Uttercold and Frostdusk is inelegant.

On the other hand, I generally like re-using trees.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 10, 2014 2:33 am 
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Uruivellas

Joined: Tue May 15, 2012 11:44 pm
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Delmuir wrote:
I realize that this is a radical change to the Necro but I think it's a good one.

Thoughts?


I was looking at this from the: "lets fix this in an easy and non-coding-intensive-way" perspective, not "lets rework necro". Mostly because I think necro is fine as it is, the talents are great and fun and allow for different builds - just the balance of class and generic is wrong. One less class tree, one more generic tree and it's golden. Animus is a tree that was added when souls were turned into a resource and it seems like it could slot better into generic in purely mechanical terms.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 10, 2014 2:50 am 
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Uruivellas

Joined: Sat Aug 24, 2013 5:55 am
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Doctornull wrote:
On the one hand, I cautiously like the idea of replacing Ice because I feel that the overlap between Uttercold and Frostdusk is inelegant.

On the other hand, I generally like re-using trees.


I agree… I had a thread a while back that made minimal changes to the Necro (just a little bit of shuffling to solve this same problem) and it went nowhere, including the suggestion of making Animus a generic.

I gave up on that a long time ago and the Necro is a class that has gathered unusual attention due to its… problems. Happy to revisit it though.


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 13, 2014 10:14 pm 
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Halfling

Joined: Mon Jan 21, 2013 1:51 am
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This seems like a good idea. It would solve one of the main complaints about necromancers.


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