"Odyssey of The Summoner" is OUT!! Find it here...

[emblempride]

Quoting is a pain on my phone but - @nekarcos - There is a point, and this is a problem with some base classes as well, that inventiveness and promoting several unorthodox play styles within the same class gets in the way of efficiency and design. See the berserker's many useless trees. A bow wielding Berserker with battle cries is not going to be as effective as a melee build. I've only really played Hydra, and it seems like the melee tank/lurker play styles are very distinct and well-defined which is great, but putting a talent point in something that feels useless for you or too situational in order to get to something that does work for you is always irksome. I mean most RPGs have this problem and this gets trickier when you have things like specific talent-enhancing passives, but since I have the opportunity to give direct feedback wouldn't' you rather style-specific talents have some kind of utility or positive contribution to other play styles? That's the only way to make those choices truly conflicting and immersive. Now, again as for specific suggestions, I'v got nothing lol, but philosophically I think it's somethin to consider.

I also think it's worth noting that patient play styles are only really fun and worth it on higher difficulties when Normal/Adv can be steamrolled by any class with any talents with enough experience, and that patient play styles would probably have to be viable for those difficulties.

[nekarcos]

@Arsonius
RE: The quest
Hehehe... Don't you worry about that-- That is no bug. Your service to "The Summoner" isn't quite complete yet.

RE: Heads
We'll see. It's actually not "bad" where Hydra currently is-- But I DO have other things in mind for it.

RE: Ejection CD
Oh god... Yeah, I'll fix this right away! What a great interaction, hahaha!

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@nsrr
I'll remove that line for good-- But let's hope there wasn't a good reason for it being there, heh...

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@emblempride
I kinda got lost in the wordiness of that post (I'm still not quite clear after reading 2-3 times)... But I take it you're saying it's unpleasant to have "filler" talents in RPGs-- Especially when they require valuable "points" and get in the way of "better" ways. Assuming that's the case...

RE: Spending precious points on useless things sucks
Not so fast. Stuff like "Voracious Feast" aren't "useless", per se. It gives you a nice bonus heal/equilibrium whenever you kill something. Just... It's not the type of talent you would put more than 1 point into (since Hydra's problem isn't several small enemies-- it's big, armored ones).
That said, "OoTS" talents can be quirky, but there's not a single "useless" one (except for "Relief", which literally does NOTHING useful right now due to "Gluttony"). The tanky/lurky gameplay split of Hydra is supposed to enable "stealth" whilst promoting an ENORMOUS margin of error. You can also use them inversely-- That is to say, since Hydra relies so much on slow heals and regeneration, stealth/lurking gives it a VARIETY of ways to "stall" for time amidst heated combat-- And thus, regenerate back up. If you're VERY inventive, your "sneakiness" and/or "cleverness" can sort of become like a sort of healing-- Especially if you manage to give your opponent the slip entirely. To put it in a silly way: Hydra is a class that is OVERLY (maybe even somewhat UNNECESSARILY) concerned for its health and safety, and most of its gameplay revolves around simply that. It's a "survivalist", and much less of a "fighter".

... But bleh-- I won't even pretend like every talent is polished at the moment, or that everything is in any kind of working order. There are plenty of talents which AREN'T working as intended, and truly ARE making themselves useless/unappealing-- "Buzz-Off" was one that I recently fixed, and there's still a lot more to go...


RE: Higher Difficulties
I'm so glad you brought this up-- THIS is ANOTHER reason why some of these "patient" talents exist. If you utilize them to the fullest, they can be the kinds of things that allow you to "easily" beat the game with one life, no deaths... Stuff like "Predation", which lets you see everything around you; "Still As Death" which gives you a threshold of safety beyond death (and can be the only reason you live through something)... The "higher" difficulties are going to draw out the TRUE potential of these types of talents, and once I'm done balancing normal gameplay, I'll be interested in hearing the new "meta" of gameplay for higher difficulties. However, for now... You construct a building from the bottom, not the top, right...?


PS: I forgot to mention one more thing-- I have a tendency to "hide" VERY POTENT, HIGHLY-POWERFUL talents behind a long range of "strange/quirky" talents-- That is to say, if you want the "power" that this particular talent gives, you have to master all the strange ones before it. "Wild-Heart/Strewn" is easily the best example of exactly this!

[jenx]

Firedrake requires investment in all stats except magic, making it very difficult.

Almost all classes require 3 stats. Those that require more like Mindslayer have a talent that boosts the other two stats.

So i suggest either adding such a talent or removing need for two of the stats. For example you have to invest in will to manage equilibrium and for talents, yet mind power plays no role at all. Meaning you have to also invest in strength. With generics you can get accuracy but wing talents require dexterity.

The easiest talent to remove as a requirement would be dexterity.

[nekarcos]

Firedrake requires investment in all stats except magic, making it very difficult.

Almost all classes require 3 stats. Those that require more like Mindslayer have a talent that boosts the other two stats.

So i suggest either adding such a talent or removing need for two of the stats. For example you have to invest in will to manage equilibrium and for talents, yet mind power plays no role at all. Meaning you have to also invest in strength. With generics you can get accuracy but wing talents require dexterity.

The easiest talent to remove as a requirement would be dexterity.

The stat requirement in every inheritable tree is already reduced, so you really don't need as much stat as you might think (30 stat to max out each category).

Also, there really isn't a need to invest in EVERY talent tree until late game (when you run out of things to spend them on)-- That's not really good for you or your Drakelings, to be honest-- You'd be better off focusing on one at a time, then training your Drakelings the same talent in order to double, triple, or even quadruple your gains. With the help of "Idealists", it's possible to teach your Drakelings Lv5~6 moves with only Lv1 of the talent learned.

Finally, Fire Drake gets 6 Decoration slots PLUS a "mouth" slot-- All of which can be filled with "Stat-boost" gems, so Fire Drake honestly DOES NOT need more stat points, nor does it need lower stat requirements. Right from the start of the game, it can get +7 to every stat, then +14, +21, +28, +35...-- And this is just gems. Some "rings" can give very huge stat boosts in specific areas as well.

So, with that all said... If there were TWO things I don't feel Fire Drake needs AT ALL... It's "more stat points" and "lower talent requirements".

[jenx]

Firedrake requires investment in all stats except magic, making it very difficult.

Almost all classes require 3 stats. Those that require more like Mindslayer have a talent that boosts the other two stats.

So i suggest either adding such a talent or removing need for two of the stats. For example you have to invest in will to manage equilibrium and for talents, yet mind power plays no role at all. Meaning you have to also invest in strength. With generics you can get accuracy but wing talents require dexterity.

The easiest talent to remove as a requirement would be dexterity.

The stat requirement in every inheritable tree is already reduced, so you really don't need as much stat as you might think (30 stat to max out each category).

Also, there really isn't a need to invest in EVERY talent tree until late game (when you run out of things to spend them on)-- That's not really good for you or your Drakelings, to be honest-- You'd be better off focusing on one at a time, then training your Drakelings the same talent in order to double, triple, or even quadruple your gains. With the help of "Idealists", it's possible to teach your Drakelings Lv5~6 moves with only Lv1 of the talent learned.

Finally, Fire Drake gets 6 Decoration slots PLUS a "mouth" slot-- All of which can be filled with "Stat-boost" gems, so Fire Drake honestly DOES NOT need more stat points, nor does it need lower stat requirements. Right from the start of the game, it can get +7 to every stat, then +14, +21, +28, +35...-- And this is just gems. Some "rings" can give very huge stat boosts in specific areas as well.

So, with that all said... If there were TWO things I don't feel Fire Drake needs AT ALL... It's "more stat points" and "lower talent requirements".

I'm basing my comments on actual game play, not theory.

[jenx]

Backdraft both damages and stuns the player if cast within range. This is pretty unhelpful. Can it be changed, perhaps just at 5/5 level?

[jenx]

you've made no changes to tannen's tower, despite my feedback

[nekarcos]

Backdraft both damages and stuns the player if cast within range. This is pretty unhelpful. Can it be changed, perhaps just at 5/5 level?

That's not a weakness-- That's definitely design. However, maybe I'll only allow the "crashing" to affect "enemies" and NOT allies, heh...

you've made no changes to tannen's tower, despite my feedback

I changed the effect so that you aren't losing Wild Power, but that's it. You will still have to deal with your "transformation"; don't bother asking me to get rid of this-- This is "Odyssey of The Summoner" plot, and I am taking absolutely NO suggestions about that-- Kick, beg, scream, or cry.



*** On a completely irrelevant (but still relevant) note-- I have started a "Fire Drake" bubble:
In regards to jenx's earlier comment:

I'm basing my comments on actual game play, not theory.

I decided to start a Fire Drake bubble in order to refute this-- I am playing through "Fire Drake" at the moment, and I have discovered QUITE a few anomalies and bizarreness concerning THIS class... Things many have missed-- Or these were perhaps anomalies only a "developer" could spot.

Particularly, I discovered that the Drakelings' were not changing their auto-levelling scheme, even though they changed styles. This meant, even when you were building a team of "Wing" Drakelings, some might continue investing into Strength or Willpower (instead of going all-out Dexterity). To make matters even worse, this meant Newborn Drakelings were NEVER changing their levelling scheme, and kept investing in Cunning and Constitution... YIKES!! If you have ever felt like Drakelings were ALWAYS starved of points-- That's because they WERE, and have NOT been investing their points correctly!!

Anywho, even with this bug in play, I have encountered absolutely ZERO, NIL, ZILCH problems WHATSOEVER with learning talents or gaining stat points. Fire Drake's early game has been absolutely BREEZY and my Drakelings are all singing happily as I, one-by-one, teach them Talent Level 6 versions of my various talents (although, due to my error, this isn't exactly "doable" in the current version-- I need to patch this).

I can safely say Fire Drake is behaving as intended-- And I am actually quite dismayed by the enormous amount of buffs that were requested. I even killed Bill without needing to escape or level up at another dungeon. However, let's see what happens in Tier 2-- After all, this was only my Tier 1 experience thus far-- And that's the "easy" part, hehehe...

More on my bubble later-- But for now, this is what I have to report.

playerlll-20160828-220927.txt

Fire Drake Bubble (Tier 1 progress)

(19.53 KiB) Downloaded 310 times

[nekarcos]

... Hahaha... Oh man. There are SO many problems... I KNEW a few bubble runs was LOOOOOOOOOONG overdue. The INCREDIBLE amount of PROBLEMS I discovered is... FRIGHTENING...


For example, did you know the Lv3 Parental Bond effect was broken this whole time? When I implemented the Volatile Change, it was causing ALL fire effects to work under Parental Bond (without having to be Lv3)-- But guess what? ALL healing caused through Fire damage was being considered as having "10/tick" healing power-- Meaning NO MATTER how STRONG your fire attack might have been, it was ALWAYS healing for ONLY 30 HITPOINTS!
... Can you see how EASILY this could mislead Fire Drakes and get Drakelings killed...?! This is a GRIEVOUS error, and could EASILY be what has been causing such great frustration for Fire Drakes all around!!


... Though, of course, I only really noticed this at Level 15 after beating the Old Forest boss (still no fatalities). I decided to tank a mob with my Drakelings and noticed my apparently "330" Nurturing was healing for all of 30HP. Considering I got this far with an entirely GIMPED heal means Fire Drake healing was, in fact, TOO powerful, if you look at it like this!

... Though, let's see what else this Bubble turns up first, hm? The point of a "Bubble" is to play through the whole game whilst taking note of things-- Then, when the run is done, correcting everything all at once and starting from the beginning again. We'll see how many more ATROCITIES I can find before this bubble is over, hahaha...

[jenx]

lvl 47, and still the @#$%@ drakelings die all the time. they need serious fixing.

[jenx]

... Hahaha... Oh man. There are SO many problems... I KNEW a few bubble runs was LOOOOOOOOOONG overdue. The INCREDIBLE amount of PROBLEMS I discovered is... FRIGHTENING...


For example, did you know the Lv3 Parental Bond effect was broken this whole time? When I implemented the Volatile Change, it was causing ALL fire effects to work under Parental Bond (without having to be Lv3)-- But guess what? ALL healing caused through Fire damage was being considered as having "10/tick" healing power-- Meaning NO MATTER how STRONG your fire attack might have been, it was ALWAYS healing for ONLY 30 HITPOINTS!
... Can you see how EASILY this could mislead Fire Drakes and get Drakelings killed...?! This is a GRIEVOUS error, and could EASILY be what has been causing such great frustration for Fire Drakes all around!!


... Though, of course, I only really noticed this at Level 15 after beating the Old Forest boss (still no fatalities). I decided to tank a mob with my Drakelings and noticed my apparently "330" Nurturing was healing for all of 30HP. Considering I got this far with an entirely GIMPED heal means Fire Drake healing was, in fact, TOO powerful, if you look at it like this!

... Though, let's see what else this Bubble turns up first, hm? The point of a "Bubble" is to play through the whole game whilst taking note of things-- Then, when the run is done, correcting everything all at once and starting from the beginning again. We'll see how many more ATROCITIES I can find before this bubble is over, hahaha...

i have no idea what you're trying to see here, or in the previous post. it is gobbleydook to me.

I started investing in drakeling talents at lvl 45 or so and then died at lvl 48 (not in vault for some stupid reason ). wish I hadn't even done so then.

so, can i make a suggestion: make the core drakelings talent class points rather than generics. class points are not nearly so precious for fire drakes, but generics are.

btw, my lvl 48 fire drak had 124 physical power, 104 accuracy, and 500 armour

[Almonihah]

I should note, I was intending my comments mostly to give you another 'pair of eyes' on things. I know, as a developer, how easy it is to get lost in your own way of thinking, and not realize that something may not be clear to another person, so I tried to write my thoughts and analysis on the class talents in such a way that you could see how they look from another perspective. So there's no need to justify yourself to me.

RE: Not Imperiled?
Were you getting healed when they died? Hmmm... I'll double-check it, just to make sure it's working.

Nope, even though I'd usually melee them to finish them off. I'd hit them with a breath that would deal ~60-75% of their HP, then walk up and bump them once, and wouldn't get anything. It was really odd--it seemed like it would work and then not work in 'waves', like I'd breathe once and all of the targets would get imperiled, and then the next breath a little while later no one would... but I wasn't paying close enough attention to tell you if it was really as off-and-on as that.

RE: Heads not threatened enough
This is definitely true. I never worried about losing heads my entire run. I think once or twice I noticed I'd lost all of one kind? So yeah, there aren't any enemies to speak of that do enough status effects to really exercise the mechanic, as you've noted.

RE: Hydra stat distribution
I actually did 2 Will 1 Con for most of my level-ups until about mid-game, where I started building Strength. The fact that I built Con at all was unusual, but was based entirely off of the fact that, if I recall correctly, some of the talents I was using specified that they scaled off of Con. So I think there was one design goal you've at least partly accomplished. From my (admittedly low-skill) analysis, putting points into a stat for survivability is a losing battle. Con's 4 hp per point is so laughably small that it's essentially ignorable (especially with avatars, that can have ~3000 hp by end-game without bothering with Con at all), and the Defense from Dexterity scales so much worse than the natural Accuracy gains from levels that you have to plan your entire build around keeping Defense relevant to, well, keep it relevant. So I always invest stat points (and look for stat-boosting items) that my talents scale off of.

RE: Swallow Whole
I recognized it as a talent that needed some careful evaluation to use. I still put max points in it anyway. The problem I found I had with it was two-fold: one, it was very hard to analyse when it was appropriate to use, and two, even when I tried to use it, it failed much more often than I anticipated.

For the first point, in order for me to really analyse when it's good to use, I needed to be able to estimate how long my belly would hold out against a particular enemy. But in order to do that, I found I had a huge list of questions I needed to answer: 1) Does my belly get any of my resists? 2) Does the enemy attack it with its normal abilities, or does it just do some sort of calculated damage value? 3) What does it mean when it says the enemy 'weakens' while in my belly? Is there some sort of reduced-damage-over-time effect? If so, how much is it? 4) After using it a couple of times, it seems like there's also a timer of some sort on how long the enemy can be in your belly? It seemed plenty long (and I can see how you wouldn't want an acid-immune enemy stuck in there eternally), but it would be nice to have some mention of that in the ability description.

So yeah, to summarize, I was trying to over-analyze the ability and finding I didn't have the data to do so. XD I recognize that you don't want to write a ten-page essay on the mechanics of the ability, but it would have been nice to have a few more details on it so I could have at least estimated how well my belly could hold up.

For the second point, my assumption was that it was a physical ability, i.e. it checked physical power vs. physical save. However, even though I had a pretty monstrous physical power thanks to eating a lot of nature-infused artifacts, it still seemed to fail an awful lot against the uniques & bosses I was trying to use it on. It made me wonder if it was subject to some kind of immunity--maybe knockback immunity? Or stun immunity? Whatever the case, I only got it to work on non-trash monsters a couple of times.

So there is more of my thinking on Swallow Whole than you probably wanted. XD Do what you will with it, but I got the impression from your comments that you misunderstood what I meant with my comments on it.

[nekarcos]

@Almonihah
RE: No need to explain
Heh... That's pretty contrary to what I'm used to... I appreciate it!

RE: "Voracious Feast" is not very perilous...
This has been a problem I've noted for a VERY long time now. Its behavior is VERY on-and-off, and I eventually need to get around to figuring out why it happens. So, in short: It's definitely not you.

RE: CON still sucks.
We'll see about that!
... Hrrrmmm... But I suppose "Prudence" wasn't that appealing to you, huh? That's to be expected, really. It only exists for that first talent, hehehe...

RE: Why can't I eat anything??
"Swallow Whole" goes through 4 checks to determine if something can be eaten:
> 1. Accuracy Check ~ Did the attack even hit? It behaves like a standard "random attack" in that it hits everyone around you-- However, this one is different: It can use ANY head, not just Ferals
> 2. Can the target be "moved"? ~ This talent is capable of "displacing" actors, so it can't be used on a target that is otherwise unable to move (this includes being affected by "Pins" and such)
*** Remark: "Tales of Maj'Eyal" is EXTREMELY weird about "how" it handles being pinned/bound. For example, being "Dazed" causes the same type of "Don't Move" state that being "Pinned to the Ground" or "Frozen Feet" might cause. Also, being "Overencumbered" applies this "Don't Move" state as well, strangely enough-- And note that you are IMMUNE to Knockbacks when in a "Don't Move" state! But yeah-- becoming "Imperiled" and reaching low HP ALSO applies a "Don't Move" status (which I am 190% certain DOESN'T get removed when you use "Swallow Whole"... So, somehow, they're "too scared" to be eaten... The hell??)
> 3. Is the target "Smaller" than you? ~ Size Class shenanigans. Not much to be said here.
> 4. Can the target be pinned? ~ Ironic, isn't it? A move that fails to work if something is pinned... REQUIRES the target to be PINNABLE. To simplify the syntax: "Is the target pinnable, but not currently pinned?"


RE: How does eating work?
Here are some point-form notes that should make it easy enough to understand:
- "Eating" a target removes them from existence entirely (they don't cooldown, effects don't tick, resources don't regenerate, etc...)
- Upon successfully "eating" something, you will get the "Digesting" effect, which tells you the remaining "HP" of your "belly" (for convenience, I even hooked the icon up with the "fractional" display, so you can visually see exactly how much is left).
- Each turn, the removed target will make a STANDARD melee "bump attack" against your belly (think of it like a "Damage Shield").
- The target's overall "damage" is reduced by how much HP% they are currently missing (so a 60% dead victim will deal 60% less damage)
- In return, each turn, you perform a mock "Acid" attack on the target, converting the damage into healing (think of it like "Life Steal")
- If your belly reaches 0HP, the effect will end immediately, but you will RETAIN the digesting penalties (the reduced combat speed, etc...)
- If the time runs out, you will spit them out anyways, but you WON'T have a bad ending.
- At current, I believe you can cancel the effect any time you want without penalty, so you can always "bail out" if you don't think your stomach can handle it.

This talent is, unfortunately, EXTREMELY loaded-- But this is because it functions along the same lines that "Dreamscape" and "Fearscape" function-- In that it's intended to "remove" actors in a VERY intense way. At some point, this will be usable on players too-- Which will allow for some hi-lar-i-ous shenanigans~~



PS: *thumbs up*

[Arsonius]

Getting lua errors on triggering traps in non-watery Lake of Nur. Error doesn't pop on every trap, so maybe it comes from trap avoidance which I leveled more than usual. http://imgur.com/a/rpX54

Equipped amulet on drakeling by dragging it... somewhere. After some testing, apparently all drakelings can be equipped an amulet this way, but after the first other amulets will go to Decorations slot, so no way to replace it. May have something to do with the fact amulets have standard Wield/Wear instead of Decorate when in drakeling inventory.

For some reason, you have to move or start using a talent (not actually use it) to update Predation. If you turned it on and just wait (by hotkey) in one spot, you won't ever see any enemies.

[nekarcos]

@Arsonius
RE: Trap Errors
That LUA error is being caused by "Menace" attempting to spook a "Trap". "Menace" arbitrarily tries to spook ANYTHING that projects against the user (and thus, its raising errors because a non-actor is projecting on the player, and "Menace" is trying to access properties an actor would have, but a trap DOES NOT).
It's fixed now though-- Hopefully.

RE: Equipping Necklaces
Whoops!
There was some remnant code that defined Drakelings as having Necklaces slots-- But I ONLY removed it on the equipment doll. Fixed-- But I'll have to force the Drakeling to UNEQUIP the necklace in the next patch...

RE: Delayed ESP for Predation
This is due to the way ToME works and "Predation" being an "Instant-Use" talent. I'll see what I can do about making it act more responsively though.