Xorn Race [0.03] Any Class Edition

[Dracos]

Ah. Well, random opinion anyway:

With a 90 percent xp mod, it really wouldn't matter what benefits it gave, it's a huge disincentive to play around with at all.

Rephrased: With Xorns, you must kill 10x as many enemies as a Cornac to reach level 50.

Sure, being always low-leveled will pull that number down a bit, but even if it is only 5x, that's just an excessive amount more dungeon on normal (probably even on nightmare). Characters with 40 percent already often have to do an extra few dungeons to reach 50. That's more than doubling the slowest rate currently used.

[Theo Seraphimus]

I have to agree with the previous poster, I understand you want to keep the race balanced, but you also need to give people a reason to play the race. I 'm REALLY interested in the idea of a four armed race but you are punishing them threefold for it. The 90% XP mod makes the race really grindy, Like the previous poster said, with the amount of extra they need to do to make level 50 it may not even be possible for them to do it by end game without doing almost EVERY SINGLE dungeon, and that just gets boring and frustrating. the 50% heal mod makes the race really hard to play even with increased damage output(Negative heal mod is one of the more punishing mechanics I have personally noticed because it affects everything even natural regen) and then the 8 HP/level makes them really squishy(which is even doubly punishing with the negative heal mod in effect). The race so far has literally nothing going for it except extra damage and moving through walls. and as cool as the idea of four arms is, I can't get past that enough to even actually try it.

However balance wise I actually liked the idea one person had of limiting other equipment, Why not make it so they can't wear body armour? Helms and gloves and everything else sure, But with four arms, your plate mail just doesn't fit. Maybe it would help balance them out a bit so you could reduce some of the other penalties. Give them a racial that gives a bit of natural Armour to keep them from being one shot, they get two equipment slots for one so it have to be a big bonus. Or even prevent the damage from stacking 100% from each weapon. Like if you are using two 2-handers or four 1-handers(shields included) The difficulty of maneuvering all your limbs effectively in combat prevents you from striking with full force. so you only get like 80% efficiency from each piece of equipment if you are using more than two hands. You could maybe even have a racial skill and have it start at like 60% efficiency and scale it up with skill points. forcing long term investment into making the most out of multi weapon fighting.

this is just my two cents though, and as I admitted I've not even tested the race out.

when it's more complete I'll Probably give it a shot anyways, like I said it's a really interesting concept, and I wish you luck getting it properly fleshed out and dealing with all the bugs/balance issues.

[xnd]

The latest xorn is from isaacssv552 if he maybe wants to do this.
http://te4.org/games/addons/tome/xornModded
comments wont post there though.

Yeah, I do think something as clear as this size difference should not be ignored, and with ogres also. I commented in ideas about that with ogres actually.

I'd also like the xorn tile to be like the xorn we fight, normal size, which is actually the opposite of big but just looks better.

Xaren! Yes, scrap the Xorn and give us the super Xorn! Sure, if a Xorn has evolved enough to be a pc it should be one of the Xaren, the evolved version!

But also, as with some characters like superhuman, if you play them, you know you are playing a little outside the balance. So maybe you play nightmare+ then as your balance.

I think the Xaren should be just as better for a player as it is for a monster. That is what you get if you play a monster race. And the inability to use many humanoid items comes with it also but could have some way to xornify some items.

Theo it won't take long to test the race out...

I was thinking it would be nice to be able to 4 arm any race. I'll open a thread for it since you seem interested.

[Trea]

The latest xorn is from isaacssv552 if he maybe wants to do this.
http://te4.org/games/addons/tome/xornModded
comments wont post there though.

Yeah, I do think something as clear as this size difference should not be ignored, and with ogres also. I commented in ideas about that with ogres actually.

I'd also like the xorn tile to be like the xorn we fight, normal size, which is actually the opposite of big but just looks better.

Xaren! Yes, scrap the Xorn and give us the super Xorn! Sure, if a Xorn has evolved enough to be a pc it should be one of the Xaren, the evolved version!

But also, as with some characters like superhuman, if you play them, you know you are playing a little outside the balance. So maybe you play nightmare+ then as your balance.

I think the Xaren should be just as better for a player as it is for a monster. That is what you get if you play a monster race. And the inability to use many humanoid items comes with it also but could have some way to xornify some items.

Theo it won't take long to test the race out...

I was thinking it would be nice to be able to 4 arm any race. I'll open a thread for it since you seem interested.

I'd like to point out that Isaacssv552 released the modded file without my permission, without even asking me.

[xnd]

hmmm, plus it doesn't do exactly what it says, like the +4 Strength.

but he does say its "a personalized version of Trea’s Xorn Race mod." its not like he put it there without that.

if someone did another version of a xorn and people tried that version, just as there are different versions of human, should they really have to ask? not that I can program anyway, but I dont really see what is wrong here.



Racially, I’d give the Xorn the following for free:

1.Xorn 4-arm fighting:
--would let them use any one handed weapon in each hand with two main hands and two off hands, (no reaving corruption blight stuff, just the 4-arm fighting).
--4-arm grappling basics (could lead to a “drag into earth” Talent)
--4-arm counter: If counter fighting talent is bought, the Xorn gets this instead, chance to counter once even if hit, or to double counter if not hit.
--4-armed threat: single enemies more likely to attack at range and only close in with flankers (this is a penalty but probably hard to code since it affects enemy behavior?)

2.Xorn Earth magic affinity:
Spell/Earth Category, free
Stone Skin, 1 free pt
Body of Stone, 1 free pt, available at lev 1
Earth missiles, 0 free pts, available to buy at lev 1
Drag Into Earth: at lev 10 (?) available to buy. Makes you unequip your weapons as part of the time cost for this talent, and then attempt to drag an enemy into the earth with nature power, which they get to try to resist and which pins them and suffocates them till they die. But any enemy this reliably worked on probably would be balance with your other abilities anyway.

3. Xorn Senses:
Tremorsense: Talent vs. invisibility/stealth, 1 free pt.

4. Dig: Just the racial ability to dig without a pick at a fast speed.

5. Note re: Beyond the Flesh, and whatever else causes like 60% of another stat to affect all weapons. If Xorn gets one of these, they do much less % with 5 weapons than if they had the 4, right? If they eventually get Psionics/Finer Energy – Resonant Focus, they could build up the % at a high level spending a lot of talents. So if they try to get a 5th weapon slot they do have to suffer for it for a while where 2-handed psi users get it as a benefit. Ok, so its racially not easy for them, fine. Or it could be adjusted a little, maybe start at 75% instead of 60%, idk, still be a penalty.

5. Anything that mentions 2 weapons as causing a benefit should be increased by having more than two (blade ward, dual defense, etc.).

6. The Xorn tile’s head goes under the bases of trees and messes up a lot so I'd just use the one we encounter an an enemy. Even the custom tile set for donators doesn’t have the xorn or xaren we fight in it, or I didn’t see it.

[Trea]

hmmm, plus it doesn't do exactly what it says, like the +4 Strength.

but he does say its "a personalized version of Trea’s Xorn Race mod." its not like he put it there without that.

if someone did another version of a xorn and people tried that version, just as there are different versions of human, should they really have to ask? not that I can program anyway, but I dont really see what is wrong here.

True, and upon double checking I did release it with a license that indicates he could do exactly what he did, I was just off put by the fact that it happened and it felt rather rude to me at the time.

Racially, I’d give the Xorn the following for free:

1.Xorn 4-arm fighting:
--would let them use any one handed weapon in each hand with two main hands and two off hands, (no reaving corruption blight stuff, just the 4-arm fighting).
--4-arm counter: If counter fighting talent is bought, the Xorn gets this instead, chance to counter once even if hit, or to double counter if not hit.
--4-armed threat: single enemies more likely to attack at range and only close in with flankers (this is a penalty but probably hard to code since it affects enemy behavior?)

2.Xorn Earth magic affinity:
Spell/Earth Category, free
Stone Skin, 1 free pt
Body of Stone, 1 free pt, available at lev 1
Earth missiles, 0 free pts, available to buy at lev 1


3. Xorn Senses:
Tremorsense: Talent vs. invisibility/stealth, 1 free pt.

4. Dig: Just the racial ability to dig without a pick at a fast speed.

Where were you when I was looking for help months ago

5. Note re: Beyond the Flesh, and whatever else causes like 60% of another stat to affect all weapons. If Xorn gets one of these, they do much less % with 5 weapons than if they had the 4, right? If they eventually get Psionics/Finer Energy – Resonant Focus, they could build up the % at a high level spending a lot of talents. So if they try to get a 5th weapon slot they do have to suffer for it for a while where 2-handed psi users get it as a benefit. Ok, so its racially not easy for them, fine. Or it could be adjusted a little, maybe start at 75% instead of 60%, idk, still be a penalty.

I'm not sure what you're getting at here

5. Anything that mentions 2 weapons as causing a benefit should be increased by having more than two (blade ward, dual defense, etc.).

The problem is that most of the already existing skills are hard-coded and are difficult to change without breaking the add-on for other add-ons.

6. The Xorn tile’s head goes under the bases of trees and messes up a lot so I'd just use the one we encounter an an enemy. Even the custom tile set for donators doesn’t have the xorn or xaren we fight in it, or I didn’t see it.

That's probably got to do with the fact tree graphics were changed in the latest, I haven't looked at it in a while so I'm not sure how easy of a fix that is

--4-arm grappling basics (could lead to a “drag into earth” Talent)
Drag Into Earth: at lev 10 (?) available to buy. Makes you unequip your weapons as part of the time cost for this talent, and then attempt to drag an enemy into the earth with nature power, which they get to try to resist and which pins them and suffocates them till they die. But any enemy this reliably worked on probably would be balance with your other abilities anyway.

Just No. I looked at that beast in the eyes and I ran. I RAN okay. Grappling code is really really REALLY difficult to deal with and unless it's been changed in the latest versions it's something I'm not willing to touch.

The original idea for this racial mod was that once I had completed the dedicated classes for it I would re-balance the stats and penalties to make it more in line with already existing races, as it would be dedicated classes only I wouldn't have to worry about the potential breaking of other class skills like a rogue Xorn having 12 attacks using Flurry, along with the fact that certain class skills will use one way of attacking, which like flurry allows all the weapons to work or a different way, which only uses mainhand[1] and offhand[1].

Your ideas are interesting, almost tempting enough to start working on it again...

[xnd]

What if, instead of changing code for those existing skills, it just checks if you are xorn and if using certain skill, then do x also, a totally different skill just done also? Then there'd be no need to touch the actual skill code? Doing x while Xorn = add y bonus also.

[Trea]

What if, instead of changing code for those existing skills, it just checks if you are xorn and if using certain skill, then do x also, a totally different skill just done also? Then there'd be no need to touch the actual skill code? Doing x while Xorn = add y bonus also.

Unfortunately as most things to do with programming, that is easier said than done.
The grappling code, as it was written when I last checked (as far as I remember), was a disorientated and odd mess.
If I remember correctly I couldn't even figure out how it worked let alone how to make it work for me. Which is a shame because I had an entire grappling tree planned and plotted out.

[Nagyhal]

It's true, Trea. The grappling code is just an unapproachable, unmodifiable "blob". The opposite of what I'd call modular.

Still, I reckon you can do whatever you need to do without too much mayhem and devastation.

In one case I replicated the startGrapple method wholesale, restyling it for the talent I had in mind. That seems to be one of the best ways of dealing with it. So, in your case, I'd make a new method in Combat.lua called "startXornGrapple", and this new implementation would remove all reference to Brawler talents and only reference Xorn stuff. You can still use the basic Grappled / Grappling effects, only now you'll have them dancing to your tune.

If you want dragging or anything like that, I can probably find you some code of mine that does the trick.

So be bold and be brave, and don't hold back in your designs. Only, please ping me back if you can think of anything I might be able to clarify for you!

[xnd]

edit: nvm. its not this addon doing it.

[xnd]

Ah what I meant with the Beyond the Flesh is like:


Xorn Telekinetic Ambidexterity:
Due to the multi-dexterous mind of the Xorn, psionic Xorn can manage 2 telekinetic grasps instead of one.

(This also counterbalances the 60% stat use penalty that Beyond the Flesh puts on each weapon, which effects the Xorn twice as much as it does 2-armed races. 2-armed races would have 3 weapons for 60%x3=180%+3effects vs. 100%x2=200%+2effects, but the Xorn would have 60%x5=300%+5effects vs. 100%x4=400%+4effects, so no reason to use Beyond the Flesh. So a 2nd Telekinetic Grasp would give the Xorn 360%+6effects. (The 100% of each = what any weapon would normally due after off-hand penalties or whatever.) That is still a -40% penalty to damage done in exchange for some more effects from a weapon’s ego, at least until much higher levels when could reduce the penalty.

But ignoring that, the multi-dexterous mind of the Xorn allowing a 2nd telekinetic makes flavor-sense, and from playing a lot of soon-dead Xorn, I don’t think it would break things and would make Beyond the Flesh not something to avoid so much.

----

What about this instead of grapple:

Xorn INFUSION!: Drag Into Stone:
Look at “Vine Lasso Infusion of the Warrior”. It says it grabs, drags, holds down, strangles, and damages the target also. Or so it says… (haven’t had any luck with it pinning anyone).
This gave me an idea:
Xorn have 4 arms, more body parts for infusions, so what if this were a racial infusion similar to this vine infusion, an infusion that enabled the Xorn to pin the target in the ground where they are, starting the asphyxiation on them, and they would get chances to resist. So, this would ignore all grappling code but enable the xorn to accomplish the same effect of trying to pin-in-stone and asphyxiate. It could be a new infusion Xorn would get for an extra racial infusion slot. In flavor-theory it would be an infusion the Xorn made to enable them to carry someone else with them through stone, and they found it can be weaponized like this against an enemy. It would have a cooldown. It could have 2 uses, like the 2 extra arms? After all, there is chance an enemy could resist anyway.

[xnd]

well, if you or someone wanted to walk me through how to do some things, I might be able to try putting some of the simpler ideas of this into it?

[Trea]

well, if you or someone wanted to walk me through how to do some things, I might be able to try putting some of the simpler ideas of this into it?

You're very insistent I might get back into it, give me a few days to consider it.

[xnd]

I've actually fixed the problem with the character tile top going under tree stumps and looking clowny.
I simply swapped in the xaren tile from the game and I think it looks so much better and prevents this problem.

I also staggered the inventory so that the items do not all write on top of one another, since I am working on something.

well, this is on my own system so far but it could be done for any xorn.

[Trea]

After a while of contemplation, I'm not going to come back to this addon, so I give whomever wants to work on this addon, permission. Feel free to use my code for whatever. My only stipulation is that I am given some credit for the addon. Have fun