Anorithil resource system

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Doctornull
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Re: Anorithil resource system

#61 Post by Doctornull »

donkatsu wrote:A new thread for a new proposal seems reasonable, provided the proposal is well-thought out. Some people are just shotgunning out random ideas without taking more than a minute to think about the obvious ramifications.
Makes sense, I'll go post it.
EDIT: Here http://forums.te4.org/viewtopic.php?f=39&t=42951

(PS: Yeah I dislike the shotgun "idea" spam. Dunno if I even want to dignify that behavior as "ideas", since it seems antithetical to working out actual practical ideas.)
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HousePet
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Re: Anorithil resource system

#62 Post by HousePet »

Red wrote:Fair enough. I can't argue that I'm not a fan of starting with most my abilities unavailable, but you like the concept, so we'll have to agree to disagree on that.

Thematically, though, I think the Luminosity system is better. Anorithils are supposed to be about the balance between light and dark, but as it stands currently, Anorithils are about abusing light to get to the dark power. Not exactly a healthy balance there. And while Luminosity does let you work entirely on light and use dark to power it or vice versa, it's also got a better balance mechanic that encourages people to try to balance the two elements instead of treating one like a charger for their actual spells. I personally think the changed resource system would work better than your skill changes to restore Anorithils to what they're supposed to be, since it actually grants significant bonuses for balancing your spells out, whereas yours is still use light to charge dark. A better light, but it's still just a charger against the real powerful foes.

If you think the class, crunchwise, should stay as a use light to charge dark and doesn't need to reflect the balance that they're supposed to have according to lore, then I guess there's no reason for you to want the system changed. Plenty of other people do, though, so I suppose we'll just have to see who Darkgod ends up listening to.
In reality you wouldn't really go into combat with most of your abilities unavailable. Like I said earlier, most battles are close enough that your bars never reset to minimum anyway.
And the reason I see no benefit to changing to the Luminosity system is that the balancing elements could easily be applied to the existing resource system. (I forgot to mention an idea about making a talent similar to the Natural Acid and Corrosive Nature talents from Oozemancer)
To be really clear: I object to the suggested changes because they make unnecessary changes to the resources and end up with effectively the same system. The balancing stuff for supporting the balancing of light and dark spells can be easily added to the existing system.
donkatsu wrote:There are serious mechanics issues though, and Housepet's only defense is... play another class? Okay, I'll play a Brawler instead, ie a class with an actually sensible "charging up" mechanic.
I also have several runes and infusions for defense, but that is irrelevant as the target of this discussion is Anorithil, not me.
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Red
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Re: Anorithil resource system

#63 Post by Red »

I'm afraid I'm not making the same connection you are. Luminosity seems like a rather different system. Could you explain how we could accomplish the things Luminosity does within the current system?

The two main points I feel Luminosity does better than the current system are as follows:

1) Offering bonuses for light or dark based on your energy content, allowing you to have (mostly) pure light or pure dark builds.

2) A balance mechanic for Corona that's mutually exclusive with the bonuses pure builds have.
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donkatsu
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Re: Anorithil resource system

#64 Post by donkatsu »

I think he's saying you can have the same system with positive and negative energy bars, without having to change the name (obviously, the name doesn't matter) or merging the two resources into one (again, obvious, you just end up with redundancies). Make it so that every talent has a positive and negative energy cost, except they're always the additive inverse of each other, ie if something has a positive energy cost of 10, it has a negative energy cost of -10. Then everything maps as follows:

positive=negative => 0 luminosity
Max positive and 0 negative => max luminosity
0 positive and max negative => min luminosity

You'd still have to make the changes to Twilight to give resource-based bonuses and function as a Spacetime Tuning-esque sustain. Once you've done that it's effectively the same system. I have no strong objection to doing it that way; the difference would be purely cosmetic. You'd have a completely redundant extra resource bar but it wouldn't affect gameplay in any way.

HousePet
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Re: Anorithil resource system

#65 Post by HousePet »

Its not completely redundant. Depending on the bonuses given it might be possible to get a bonus from high positive energy and high negative energy at the same time. Which would be useful for reinforcing the use of both light and darkness, as then you wouldn't get stuck in the middle with no bonuses.
It also allows you to do interesting things with talents that cost or build both resources.
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Red
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Re: Anorithil resource system

#66 Post by Red »

I would actually rather see the bonuses stay mutually exclusive and have both sides and the middle be usable build choices. Balance is their theme (and should likely be encouraged as the main build choice) but I wouldn't mind having the option of going pure light or pure dark as some kind of extremist Anorithil.

And I think it would work a lot better as just one resource bar-both to avoid clutter, and to make Corona a more interesting ability. Unless you have a good way to make Corona fit the balance that Luminosity has, with the requirements for Corona excluding bonuses available to a more single element focused build, I'd still go with that over a modification to the existing system.
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donkatsu
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Re: Anorithil resource system

#67 Post by donkatsu »

HousePet wrote:Its not completely redundant. Depending on the bonuses given it might be possible to get a bonus from high positive energy and high negative energy at the same time. Which would be useful for reinforcing the use of both light and darkness, as then you wouldn't get stuck in the middle with no bonuses.
It also allows you to do interesting things with talents that cost or build both resources.
If anything allows you to build both resources at the same time, under the rules outlined under luminosity you would sit at max or close to max positive and negative energy the majority of the time, which is the exact problem the luminosity mechanic was meant to solve.

HousePet
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Re: Anorithil resource system

#68 Post by HousePet »

But wouldn't people just set their Luminosity to full dark anyway?
Luminosity allows the same problem to occur and rewards them for doing it.
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donkatsu
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Re: Anorithil resource system

#69 Post by donkatsu »

donkatsu wrote:Final comments:
Ultimately, you have three choices. 1.) Specialize in darkness damage, setting your Twilight level to its minimum and only using Sun spells to keep your darkness spells powered up. This also gives you better utility from the Eclipse tree. 2.) Specialize in light damage, in which case you don't need to sustain Twilight at all (but you can still benefit from its passive effects). Only use Star fury spells to keep your light spells powered up. This has the utility benefit of powering up your Light tree. 3.) Specialize in a balance, setting your Twilight level to 0, bouncing back and forth between positive and negative, allowing your light and dark spells to power each other up. This choice is supported by Corona, which only works within a certain range centered at 0.
To elaborate, full dark should be a viable choice but it comes at the cost of a half power Bathe in Light, half duration Providence, and zero Coronas, among other things. It's far from an obvious optimal choice.

Also the latter half of the post details buffs to the Sun tree across the board, putting it on par or close to par with Star-fury. "Well then people will just go full light" you say, and I will pre-empt that by again pointing out the loss of Corona, as well as dark support spells such as Mindblast, Totality, Blood Red Moon, Jumpgate, Shadow Simulacrum, and Darkest Light (assuming Darkest Light is made useful).

Red
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Re: Anorithil resource system

#70 Post by Red »

I've made another thread to try to figure which system everyone thinks is best. Hopefully this will help everyone cooperate on one system instead of trying to build three different ones.
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It hasn't worked yet.

HousePet
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Re: Anorithil resource system

#71 Post by HousePet »

Nothing wrong with a full dark or full light build being viable, but by going with those you get lots of easy synergy from stack +element or +mastery options, which light+dark builds get less from.
The system needs some benefit for using both, which Luminosity doesn't really give.
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Red
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Re: Anorithil resource system

#72 Post by Red »

Corona is only usable if you're in the middle. It disables at either extreme, so if you want full bonuses for light or dark you lose Corona.

In addition, it weakens the other half. So full dark makes you offensively killer, but weakens your defenses a lot and vice versa for light.
I'm not crying. I'm offering a sacrifice to DarkGod in hopes he'll show favor to me.

It hasn't worked yet.

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