Spell / Phantasm re-work

[Doctornull]

Illuminate and Ambuscade are nearly the only things keeping Shadowblade from being a regular Rogue, in practice, the other being Shadowstep. Nimble movements + Flurry isn't exactly like shadowstep, but in practice...

I'm not saying don't nerf Illuminate; I am saying it is the only thing making the class playable for me right now (I'm not an Ambuscade user). If this gets nerfed, can we rebalance a bit to make these guys somewhat less pitiful? The stat point investment is pretty deep, unless you want to neglect magic, and have... a Rogue. Without poisons or traps. I think the classes with wide stat point spread should have some payoff that makes it worth it.

I am 100% behind making the Shadowblade both non-broken and non-pitiful.

My addon class (the Striker) is an attempt at making a non-broken and non-pitiful Stealthy caster.

Part of why I want to change Phantasm is to make the 2nd talent better for a Shadow Blade, so they'd get a persistent Stealth bonus out of their Magic investment, along with their Defense bonus.

I think maybe what the Shadowblade needs is a tree of spells which do low damage but have a chance to Stun the opponent, so your Dirty Fighting tricks could pay off more often (and so you could use them to escape). The low damage would necessitate Stealth rather than breaking it.

[Earwicker]

The smallest fix is the rebalance the damage on illuminate to reflect how cheap it is to get and use.

If possible, that would be great. What value would allow it to remain useful for NON-Stealth users, but not be broken for Stealth users?

I am currently unable to find such a value, so I propose splitting the effect into a "stealth-compatible" version and a "no stealth" version.

Putting lower damage on the "stealth-compatible" version could work for stealth-users, but it seems to me that the regular no-stealth version is already just about right for use by an Archmage.

Maybe just have Illuminate deal base_value x (100 - stealth_value)% damage? Seems both thematic and an easy fix.

[SageAcrin]

You miss the point: Ambruscade is currently broken, using Ambruscade optimally removes lots of danger, and therefore Ambruscade needs to be fixed.

The same chain of logic applies to the current Illuminate.

Okay, I'm done with this conversation.

Illuminate is a standard damage+status skill with a very low base-even double damage on it is comparable to a normal Fireflash-and requires specific effort to boost that no other attack on the class has. Like any status skill, it can be resisted, and relying solely on it has a CD issue, which in turn requires relying on Stealth checks even when you don't break Stealth, etc., a lot of reasonable balances and checks.

It's great, but classes-particularly sidegrade builds of classes-need good points. In this case, it's rather hard to build Spellpower-in order to deal damage or status people-with a Shadowblade.

Ambuscade is probably the best defensive skill in the game, and a powerful offensive skill, both at once, literally making it impossible to die in many situations, and it does not notably require Spellpower or Magic beyond what you need to learn it.

You saying "They're the same thing" (Effectively what you did, though specifically phrased so that you could back out-a pretty good words-juggling tactic.) shows that you're not into an intelligent conversation, but instead are into winning, and I think it's extreme enough of an example to show it to anyone. So, I'm done here.

[Doctornull]

You miss the point: Ambruscade is currently broken, using Ambruscade optimally removes lots of danger, and therefore Ambruscade needs to be fixed.

The same chain of logic applies to the current Illuminate.

Okay, I'm done with this conversation.

And yet you kept talking. I'll respond to your points anyway.

Ambuscade is probably the best defensive skill in the game, and a powerful offensive skill, both at once, literally making it impossible to die in many situations, and it does not notably require Spellpower or Magic beyond what you need to learn it.

Optimal play with Illuminate is very similar, in that:
- It is powerful offensively and defensively, since you use it from across the map and near cover, and it usually kills everything, AND if it fails to kill a thing it may leave the thing blind.
- It is a boring playstyle which negates or avoids the majority of danger on a map.

You saying "They're the same thing" (Effectively what you did

And this is where you're just plain wrong.

I'm saying that Stealth + Illuminate have some of the same issues as Ambruscade, which I use as an example because it seems like everyone agrees that Ambruscade needs to be fixed.

you're not into an intelligent conversation

Dude, what the hell?

[SageAcrin]

I was explaining why I was irritated at you.

It's more polite than just posting "I'm done with this conversation", in my opinion-much like explaining this is more polite than just ignoring your comment on it.

I am, otherwise, done with the conversation.

[donkatsu]

you're not into an intelligent conversation, but instead are into winning

Funny how this applies to like 25% of your own posts.

[Canderel]

Guys. Keep it civil. Respect each other, and enjoy the game.

[Doctornull]

@ Canderel - thanks!

Everyone else - let's not let one uncivil, thread-crapping troll derail the topic. Please, let's get back to discussing how the current Illuminate can (or can't) be abused, and what can be done to fix it.

Most of us here are able to discuss things in a civil way, which is a thing I generally like about this community.

--

Now, back to the topic:

- Is there a scaling value which retains usefulness for an Archmage but disallows screen-wide vaporization by a Shadowblade? (I can't find one.)

- Just disabling Stealth before calculating the crit value for Illuminate would fix the vaporization issue.

- It sounds like the Shadowblade is not really working as a class: it's got two mechanics which are brokenly good when abused, and the rest of its mechanics are sub-standard. A full Shadowblade re-work might be too big of a topic for this thread, but Phantasm is part of Shadowblade so I'd like to her people's thoughts on how a re-worked Phantasm could better support the Shadowblade.

[SageAcrin]

Oh, alright, I'll give actual discussion, since you really seem to want it that much. I don't think I'd have gotten insulted that many times if it wasn't important to both of you, after all.

Let's see.

Every single point I made about how Illuminate vs Ambuscade was ignored, including that Spellpower is an extremely off-beat investment for a Shadowblade. Magic is extremely hard to float for an early or midgame Shadowblade(They have a strong multi-attribute dependancy, and while a straight Str/Dex/Mag build is eventually valid, it's very hard to keep physical power going without strength, and very hard to keep...anything else going without Dexterity.), and whereas skills like Ambuscade only really require the basic requirement, you need every bit of Spellpower you can get for a damage/status spell.

That you're attacking one turn in fourteen due to having no other true spells and that this is extremely dangerous due to Stealth constantly breaking was also ignored. So, using a Staff oriented build is extremely questionable, yes? I'm sure you could do a sidegrade, but you're ditching an amazing amount of your skillset.

Illuminate is a 28, 180 attack spell, meaning it is about 3/4ths of the power of, say, Fireflash. Blood Boil uses a very similar damage formula, has a similar debilitating effect(Slow) and is backed up by a constant critical multiplier that does not fail at random(It is, admittedly, about half the impact of the one in question, but Blood Boil also has a much lower Cooldown, and is paired with Blood Spray at similar power and with another secondary, rather good, effect.).

Somehow, those spells aren't overpowered enough to need corrective action. Funny thing, that, given that they require very little extra effort to access and no real sidegrade builds!

You, Doctormull, have never played, that I can find, a Shadowblade. Your only known clear was in fact with an Adventurer, and you talk of an addon style class, so I can only assume you have no actual experience with this class' abilities with Illuminate, only assumption.

And you have been insulting, telling me repeatedly that I am wrong outright without giving reasonable justification for it, instead giving your opinion why I am wrong. Then calling me a "thread-crapping troll" while thanking the person who said to keep the thread civil. (Edit: Or possibly donkatsu. It's questionable either way...)

Have I got everything straight?

Can this thread please either be locked or have actual enforcement? This is ridiculous-I'm very tired of people getting angry at me because they disagree with my points, insult me directly, etc., and most forums have more moderation than that.

[HousePet]

Illuminate does have a very wide radius.
And since it is really a disable spell the damage does seem a bit high. Especially with the low cost.
I think dropping the damage to 20, 120 would be fine. No additional change is needed for Shadowstrike, as there is nothing wrong with using Shadowstrike in this way.

[SageAcrin]

I dunno...the power is weird, because for Archmage it's extremely odd to strengthen Light damage.

(It's on Starstaff and not Magestaff, so most mages won't be able to strengthen it as easily. Some Stone builds can do it, but not most Archmages in general.)

I think that's part of why the power's relatively high?

[Doctornull]

(They have a strong multi-attribute dependancy, and while a straight Str/Dex/Mag build is eventually valid, it's very hard to keep physical power going without strength, and very hard to keep...anything else going without Dexterity.), and whereas skills like Ambuscade only really require the basic requirement, you need every bit of Spellpower you can get for a damage/status spell.

Why would anyone build Str?
Your daggers work off Dex+Cun thanks to Lethality, which also directly buffs Shadowstrike Illuminate.
The stat allocation is Dex, Mag, Cun and nothing else.
It's quite viable.

That you're attacking one turn in fourteen due to having no other true spells and that this is extremely dangerous due to Stealth constantly breaking

That's actually addressed in my earlier posts: the playstyle which abuses Stealth + Illuminate is rest, Stealth, autoexplore, Illuminate, rest, repeat. That 'rest' is for Illuminate and Stealth to both cooldown.

Also, Stealth never breaks until I cast or attack.

Illuminate is a 28, 180 attack spell, meaning it is about 3/4ths of the power of, say, Fireflash. Blood Boil uses a very similar damage formula, has a similar debilitating effect(Slow) and is backed up by a constant critical multiplier that does not fail at random

I guess you don't understand how Shadowstrike works.
It never fails at random.
It never fails at all.
If you cast from Stealth, you crit plus plus, period.

(It is, admittedly, about half the impact of the one in question

Seems that half the impact is less problematic.

You, Doctormull, have never played, that I can find, a Shadowblade.

You ought to be aware that people who write and test addons are forced to play offline quite a bit.

If you've got a way to play online with a folder full of unvalidated addon code, I'm eager to hear it.

[Doctornull]

Illuminate does have a very wide radius.
And since it is really a disable spell the damage does seem a bit high. Especially with the low cost.
I think dropping the damage to 20, 120 would be fine. No additional change is needed for Shadowstrike, as there is nothing wrong with using Shadowstrike in this way.

Yeah, it's the huge area PLUS the one-shot damage which makes Illuminate problematic.

I'm proposing a way to eliminate the damage, but reducing the damage area would also work... maybe something like, you illuminate the whole screen, but you only damage monsters CLOSE to you in a small radius? Or damage drops off with distance from the caster?

[SageAcrin]

Why would anyone build Str?
Your daggers work off Dex+Cun thanks to Lethality, which also directly buffs Shadowstrike Illuminate.
The stat allocation is Dex, Mag, Cun and nothing else.
It's quite viable.

Physical power, but you're right, I forgot Lethality for a moment.

Somehow.

My bad, apologies.

Strength's still useful, though, and it doesn't really invalidate my point...just replace Strength with Cunning, it's still difficult.

That's actually addressed in my earlier posts: the playstyle which abuses Stealth + Illuminate is rest, Stealth, autoexplore, Illuminate, rest, repeat. That 'rest' is for Illuminate and Stealth to both cooldown.

Works pretty well for early/midgame, certainly, but many of the most dangerous later-game enemies will not allow you to do this easily, if at all, I find?

Also, it generally applies to Shadowstep, it just takes longer to do with Shadowstep. It's honestly the methodology I used to get through with a Rogue at all...

Also, Stealth never breaks until I cast or attack.

Enemies can temporarily see through stealth; Every single turn an enemy is in your viewing range, they make a See Stealth check vs your Stealth rating.

If it succeeds, they can "see" you for that turn, and intelligent AI enemies will have a general idea of where you are at all times after that, and fire in that general area with spells/move towards your location and attack generally at you, as well.

I guess you don't understand how Shadowstrike works.
It never fails at random.
It never fails at all.
If you cast from Stealth, you crit plus plus, period.

I do understand how it works, though I'm unsure of one element on spells.

For physical attacks, there is a See Stealth check made just before the attack hits-if successful, the Shadowstrike fails.

I don't know if this is reproduced on spells, however-it's a rather hard thing to code dive for. Maybe this is the real problem here?

It fails at random and it fails just fine with everything else, however.

You ought to be aware that people who write and test addons are forced to play offline quite a bit.

If you've got a way to play online with a folder full of unvalidated addon code, I'm eager to hear it.

Validate and publish your addons. People like addons.

It's how I handle the ten or so I've made.

[Doctornull]

Physical power, but you're right, I forgot Lethality for a moment.

Somehow.

My bad, apologies.

Strength's still useful, though, and it doesn't really invalidate my point...just replace Strength with Cunning, it's still difficult.

You can max three stats by game end, and that still leaves enough points to buff up Con a bit for everyone's favorite Resist All talent.

In what way is it difficult for those three stats to be Dex, Mag and Cun?

Note that for the Shadowblade, Cunning also boosts Spellpower.

Works pretty well for early/midgame, certainly, but many of the most dangerous later-game enemies will not allow you to do this easily, if at all, I find?

That's hopefully true. I was able to clear through level 30 with this methodology before I got too bored to continue.

As I mentioned upthread, Rares and Bosses were the only things which remained fun -- which is to say, the only things which didn't evaporate immediately upon coming into my LoS.

Even if that guess is correct, though, making the mid-game boring is an unforgivable sin, and merits correction.

Enemies can temporarily see through stealth; Every single turn an enemy is in your viewing range, they make a See Stealth check vs your Stealth rating.

True, but this does NOT break Stealth.

If it succeeds, they can "see" you for that turn, and intelligent AI enemies will have a general idea of where you are at all times after that, and fire in that general area with spells/move towards your location and attack generally at you, as well.

They're almost always dead by that point.
They had one turn to respond to me, which was the turn they came into my LoS.

If something survives my Illuminate, I can usually walk away (around a corner). If I meet a boss, then he might be blind by this point, which makes his pathing and ranged attacks very random.

I do understand how it works, though I'm unsure of one element on spells.

We're only discussing how Shadowstrike works in conjunction with spells.

C'mon.

I don't know if this is reproduced on spells, however-it's a rather hard thing to code dive for. It fails at random and it fails just fine with everything else, however.

It actually has the same behavior for spells and mental attacks, UNLESS the mental attack goes through the melee code.

This is why my psychic Stealth guy uses Gesture of Pain, and why his main ranged attack power cannot crit.

Those are NOT broken in the same way as spells and other mental powers.

The code is spread out, sure, but it's not actually difficult to understand.