Class idea - Outrider (with suggestions for mounted mobs)

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Nagyhal
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Class idea - Outrider (with suggestions for mounted mobs)

#1 Post by Nagyhal »

Design Notes

When I originally tried to make a mounted-combat class, I was stumped by one very distracting question- are there even horses in Maj'Eyal, or would that be presuming too much ;)? So, I took my inspiration from the creatures and monsters already in the game to create a beastriding character class, with a rather different flavour to the usual cavalier or mounted knight! The Outrider is a barbarian-cavalier-beastmaster hybrid, with a little inspiration from the mounted archers of our own real-world history barbarian hordes.

I have drawn on the most basic Archery and Two-Weapon Fighting talents already in the game, powered by the familiar Stamina resource, and I have added the Loyalty mechanic which compensates the potency of a blow-absorbing, damage dealing mount with a dangerous temper that when provoked can turn an unlucky player's advantage up on its head. Talents of mobility and endurance as used by the Berserker and Archer classes are also favoured.

I'm proud to have struck upon a concept for a class with superficially mundane abilities yet what I'd call an "exotic" playstyle. No rewriting the rules of reality, here, or power sources with names plucked from obscure 19th century American slang (I jest! Vim is a familiar word, and moreover, I'd never be able to think up these things without the inspiration of my class-designing idol, edge2054.) And this takes the same approach as class ideas like the Brawler or the Charlatan.

I have tried to leave space with the generic "Mounted Combat/ Mobility" tree for a Knight or Cavalier class which shares some of these abilities but uses a different stratagem for discovering a mount. Also, there could potentially be an unlockable (or buyable) tree or two for the Fighter, Sun Paladin, or Captain. I suggest two trees as it might require one for useful abilities and another one for maintenance of the mount. What I'd really like here is to get the concept of mounted abilities out in the open; I know I'm not the only one to have had it before, so those with thoughts, get them out here!

Using a Mount with the Loyalty Resource

Loyalty as I have it in mind will start in the region of 100 and grow slowly, perhaps scaling with Willpower, perhaps being affected by mount talents.

Loyalty is depleted by:
  • The mount taking damage
  • The mount being forced (activated Mounted Combat talents).
At zero Loyalty, your mount will abandon you, and begin to attack you.
  • Talents such as "Subdue the Beast" would rein in your mount's Loyalty even while it is hostile, causing it to relent more quickly. Beware, though, for the Stamina price will be significant!
  • A tame steed such as a pony would rather flee than continue to fight.
At full / good Loyalty, your mount will perform exceptional deeds in your favour:
  • It will rush to return to you when you are knocked off.
  • If equipped with an Infusion, it will share it with you when you are in need.
At low / bad Loyalty, your mount will misbehave:
  • Certain talents will be less powerful.
  • It may refuse to attack (which may involve its free attacks only)
  • It may move more slowly.
  • Low Loyalty may be more detrimental when forcing the mount to fight on its own.
    OR Loyalty depletion is increased when making the mount fight alone.
When in possession of a mount, you gain the Mount and Dismount actions which may be used to move into or out of the square your mount occupies, and to fight either as one or side by side as a formidable unit.

The mount occupies a space in your Party Members panel and can be leashed as normal. Loyalty, however, is a player resource, and appears in the player attributes pane after gaining a mount.
  • Low Loyalty may affect the leashing.
When mounted, enemy blows have the chance to hit either you or your mount.
  • When a blow hits your steed your mount loses Loyalty in proportion to the damage incurred- though if mounted you are then protected from the blow.
  • Mounts take considerable effort to replace when they die, encouraging care from the player.
  • When you are hit by a great or incapacitating blow, you will be knocked from your steed and momentarily left to fend for yourself.
  • Larger steeds like a drake will have an increased chance of being hit, to compensate for their greater bulk.
  • They may also suffer an increased rate of Loyalty depletion to account for their headstrong nature and the difficulty of restraining such a powerful beast.
Mounts will have talent trees similar to the golem, and this will be a large balancing element of the class.

Wild steeds as used by the Outrider may differ greatly from tame steeds such as a hireable pony.

The Talents

I've tried to think about how Outriders could interesting, flexible and fun to create. They're warriors that can follow a STR and CUN build using a two-handed weapon, a STR, DEX and CUN build using a two-handed weapon and a bow, or a DEX and CUN build using a sling. WIL is also useful for mastery over a mount. Mount damage is dependent on Cunning via the mount talents that can be bought; though this reliance on Cunning might not be the case for a tame mount such as a horse or a proud and intelligent mount such as a griffon. Loyalty and access to non-Outrider-specific mounted talents such as Mobility is provided by WIL. CON is deprecated by the mount's readiness to take damage.

Disclaimers:

The numbers in these talents are extremely rough, liable to error, and only added so I can sketch a general outline of the class. Don't pick at them, just help me hone in on the proportions they need to be in.

I have not mentioned scaling in these talents as that level of fine-tuning at this stage would blow my brain, but rest assured that it is intended.

These are just suggestions, and the idea of a mounted class is problematic enough on its own! Most of the "Bestial Dominion" tree is extremely vague, for example. They're only sketched out thus to appear impressive, not because I'm attached to them. Nor am I attached the notion of any of my ideas getting into ToME as a whole, as there are so many great classes in it already, and I'd be happy to collaborate with others on an optional "class pack" for the purpose of fun.

Please suggest more talents and better versions of my own, and options for further Mounted Combat classes.

Also, the list of mounts is far from final.

Mounted Combat / Bestial Dominion (generic)

Challenge the Wilds/ 60 STA, 200 cooldown
Your hurl your fury at the wilderness, letting out a luring, primal call and intensifying every one of your senses so that you might close upon a savage ally, a steed to carry you to victory and spoil. Finding a suitable wild mount takes time and effort; you gain the "Challenge the Wilds" status with a counter of 10+TL*5, and every time you slay an enemy, that counter depletes by 1. As it approaches 0, your chances of happening upon your quarry are increased. The beast that is called will depend on your surroundings: either a wolf, agile and dependable; a spider, ruthless yet versatile; or a rare and mighty drake. You must subdue the beast by blade or bow; it will not come to your side immediately, but after you have asserted your dominance. Care must be taken not to slay it unwittingly. The quality of beast will increase with talent level.

At talent level 3, you learn dominion over some of the powerful distance attacks of wild steeds. Wolves gain a demoralizing howl, spiders learn to spit webs at their foes, and drakes gain a breath attack according to their type. You learn a talent that evokes these effects on a cooldown of 13-TL, and they improve with further talent points spent in Challenge the Wilds.

Subdue the Beast/ 50 STA, 16 cooldown
With a mighty effort, you rein in your mount's feral tendencies, increasing its Loyalty by 10+TL*20. As you master the domestication of wild riding beasts, you are able to still their fury long enough to inscribe them with infusions. You gain an infusion slot for your mount, and may gain others for each Mounted Combat / Bestial Dominion talent you raise to 5/5 (up to 3 slots)

Feral Affinity/ Passive
You share the resistances of your steed, while your steed partakes of some of your own defenses against mental attacks (up to +35+TL*10% confusion resistance).
Wolf: Phys + Knockback
Spider: Nature + Blight + Darkness
Drake: Elem + Stunning

Unbridled Ferocity/ Instant, 80 STA, 50-TL*5 cooldown
You throw caution to the wind and let your bestial steed revel in the glory of the hunt, gaining a 8+TL*4[scaling] increase in physical power for 5 turns, and not depleting but regaining Loyalty with each hit that it endures. However, if you fall from your beast while it is in this furious state, you will not be able to re-mount.

Mounted Combat / Teamwork (class)

Rearing Assault/ 5 LOY, 12 STA, cooldown 8
Your mount rears up and attacks your target for %90 + TL*15 damage, while moving into its space; your mount and your foe will exchange places. If you are mounted you follow through with a crushing strike or a focused shot with a %12*TL increased critical modifier. You may also call upon your mount to use this while dismounted; this does not cost stamina.

Sic/ 25 LOY, cooldown 23-TL*1.5
If you are not dismounted, then you forcibly dismount. Your mount performs a rushing attack on an enemy within 5+TL squares, dealing <rush> damage and dazing it for 3 turns. At talent level 3, you may use Sic on yourself as a friendly command, calling your mount to your side without dealing damage or expending Loyalty.

Flanking/ Passive
If you and your mount both stand adjacent to the same enemy, but not adjacent to one another, then both of your critical strike chances are increased by 8 + TL*5 % against that enemy, and as well, it suffers a 5 + TL*2 penalty to defense.

Bond beyond Blood/ Instant, cooldown 50
You and your mount act as one, allowing you to switch between control of yourself and your mount at will for 7+TL turns. While this talent is in effect, your mount loses loyalty at a reduced rate; all loyalty costs are reduced by 5% + TL *2.

Mounted Combat / Mobility (generic)

Overrun/ 15 LOY, cooldown 15
Riding your mount, you charge to a point up to 2+%TL squares away, trampling over enemies brutally as you do so, your mount dealing %80 + TL*8 damage to all who those who dare obstruct you.

Goad/ 25 LOY, cooldown 16
For 3+2*TL turns, your mount's movement speed is increased by 50 +TL*10 %. You may be riding or adjacent to your mount to achieve this effect.

Savage Bound/ 15 LOY, cooldown 15
Your mount bounds into the air, landing up to 3 + TL/2 squares away. If an enemy is in this square, your mount pounces upon it, dealing %90+TL*5 damage while landing in the square in front of it and pinning it for 2+TL turns.

Mounted Acrobatics/cooldown 13-TL
When you dismount, you may leap a great distance, jumping an extra TL / 2 squares away. All enemies you pass through during this manoeuvre suffer a %80 + TL*8 damage attack, if you are wielding a melee weapon; if you wield a ranged weapon, then you shoot one enemy nearest to you (but not adjacent) when you land for %120 +TL*12 damage. In addition, you may mount from an extra TL/2 squares away.

Mounted Combat/ Barbarous Combat (class, locked)

Brazen Lunge/ STA 12, cooldown 8
You attack for 166%-250% weapon damage with a range of 2, but the massive momentum you attain leaves you disarmed for 3 turns. If you are mounted this will also hit up to two nearby creatures for 50% of its full damage.

Tyranny of Steel/ STA 30, cooldown 12
You release a maniacal display of brutality upon your foes, lashing out with a reckless attack that hits all adjacent enemies for ~%125 damage but with a doubled chance of missing, and scattering those who are puny of will, knocking them back 3 squares. If you are mounted, you may have your beast rise up in a terrifying fashion, knocking back instead all foes within a radius of 1+TL/2.

Bloody Spectacle/ STA 30, cooldown 12
You gouge your enemy for ~%80 damage. If it is killed, then the horrific maiming you inflict spreads terror in all nearby foes, blinding them as they must avert their eyes for 2+TL/2 turns. If you are mounted, then you may raise the severed remnants of your victim high above for all to see, blinding instead all enemies in radius 2+TL/3. If you fail to kill it, however, then your foe continues to bleed for XX over 5 turns as it struggles to recover from your wicked wound.

Gruesome Depredation/ 0 LOY, cooldown 25
Your mount bites your enemy for 190+TL*10% damage. If this kills it, then your mount's bite devours a great chunk of your enemy's carcass, restoring 5+TL*2 Loyalty and healing your mount for XX.

Mounted Combat/ Skirmish Tactics (class, locked)

Beastmaster's Mark/ 15 STA, cooldown 10
You let off a jagged missile that fills your steed with a savage thirst for blood, enraging it. You shoot your enemy for 80+TL*8 damage, bleeding it for (dam/12) each turn and marking it with the Beastmaster's Mark for 4 + TL turns. While this is in effect, your steed concentrates solely upon this foe, moving and attacking 120 + TL*5 faster, but if you hold it back it will lose 5 Loyalty per turn that you do this.

Set-Up Shot/ cooldown 8-TL/2
You shoot your enemy for 100% damage, granting any adjacent alllies a free attack for %120 +TL*8 damage. This shot consumes no stamina. Extra talent levels increase the damage and reduce the cooldown.

Loose Rider/ 30 STA, Sustain, cooldown 30
You may only activate this sustain while mounted. If you dismount, it deactivates. If you or your mount are hit for over 20% of your max health (but not enough to kill you), then you take only 50% of that damage, this sustain deactivates, and you gain a movement speed increase of 600% for one turn and may dismount freely--but if you do anything other than dismount or move while dismounted, then this bonus ends.

Daring Vantage/Instant, 30 STA, cooldown 30
Gathering your pluck, you stand tall on your mount for 2+TL turns, taking a sweeping view of the battlefield and allowing you to fire shots that seem to fall from the sky. Your basic shots now travel instantly and you may hit any foe who is visible to you, and also they deal +10*TL% damage. However, if you are hit while in this stance, you will be knocked from your mount.

Other talents that should or could be included:

Technique / Two-Handed Weapon Offense
NOTE: Outriders are capable berserkers, but need to be more careful of endangering their mount or allowing themselves to be knocked off.
Technique / Archery Training
Technique / Field Control (not known)
Cunning / Survival
Technique / Combat Training
Technique / Superiority (not known)
Technique / Warcries (not known)
NOTE: I would be interested in updating Warcries as it seems little-loved, particularly to turn it towards a tree of rousing, ally-rallying shouts that Thalore, Yeeks and quest-NPC-fearing characters could invest into, but especially for martial leaders like Outriders and Captains. Shattering Shout for example could damage enemies and heal allies.
Technique / Combat Techniques (not known)

Mounts will have talent trees similar to the golem, and this will be a large balancing element of the class. More on this in a later post.
Last edited by Nagyhal on Sat Feb 02, 2013 5:13 am, edited 1 time in total.

Postman
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Re: Class idea - Outrider (with suggestions for mounted mobs

#2 Post by Postman »

Like it a lot.
Some comment:
If overrun represent charge (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shock_tactics ) it should add big bonus to weapon damage.Also possibly fear or stun enemy, player disarmed after attack for x turns
Charge could also be represented as separate talent, without mount bonus.
Also cavalry shock weapon - lance (1 handed, damage as 2 handed, only can be used while mounted), would be good to have. Can be classed as exotic.

darkgod
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Re: Class idea - Outrider (with suggestions for mounted mobs

#3 Post by darkgod »

I like the idea:)
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Re: Class idea - Outrider (with suggestions for mounted mobs

#4 Post by jotwebe »

Wow! This positivily drips flavor.

I like pretty much everything, and would love to see it in the game. Mounted acrobatics especially gave me hilarious mental pictures.

Anyway, Loyalty: How is it regenerated?

And seeing as Loyalty and Stamina are the two resources used (and shouldn't Loyalty be called "Dominance" or "Control" or something if it's a resource of the main character, not the mount?) - wouldn't it be interesting to tie the regeneration rates to the mounted/dismounted state? One would give you faster LOY regen, the other faster STA, only which would be which?

One could argue that riding is less exhausting than walking/jogging/whatever the PC usually does, and that the mount is happier running free, and thusly being mounted would lead to higher LOY and lower STA regen.

OTOH one might say that riding reinforces the bond between the rider and his/her trusty mount, and is maybe exhausting, as it's not a harmless little horse we're taling about.

Or Loyalty gains for kills?

Right, going down the talents as suggested, skipping where I don't have any brilliant brainstorms or cutting criticisms at the moment:

Bestial Dominion

Plus the noble lion, please. Stunning/Dazing roar, Pinning + Fear + Conf res for Feral Affinity,.

Teamwork

Give chance for pinning on Sic, with increasing TL? Or pinning instead of dazing? I can see that wolf gnawing on a poor orc's leg, while his fur-and-chainmail-bikini-clad mistress takes her time of a nice, aimed shot... and if the victim is only dazed, the next thing the mount is going to do is attack and break the daze, unless you keep the leash really short. But what kind of a Sic would that be? Good doggy, fetch me that bone?

Oh, and rename "Sic" to "Cry Havoc!". With the exclamation mark.

Mobility

Love all of these. Need a better name for the tree. Stumped.

Barbarous Combat

Don't like the "Brazen" in "Brazen Lunge". How 'bout "Reckless Lunge"? "Fearless Lunge"? The other names rock.
Bloody Spectacle: Maybe dazing, with blinding in case of a bad failure on the resistance roll or something? But then dazing all that can see you? Making it more difficult ro resist if you are mounted?

Skirmish Tactics

Lot's of interesting mechanics here, esp. Beastmaster's Mark and Loose Rider. Maybe call "Loose Rider" "Wind Rider" instead? "Loose" sounds a bit bland, and seems to imply a bit of a lack of control... just lacks that certain bit of barbarian boastfulness...
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aberk
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Re: Class idea - Outrider (with suggestions for mounted mobs

#5 Post by aberk »

I am super exited about this class, but I have a question. How is a mounted rider supposed to wield a two handed weapon. Shouldn't they be restricted to one handed weapons and possibly shields?

Hedrachi
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Re: Class idea - Outrider (with suggestions for mounted mobs

#6 Post by Hedrachi »

IIRC medieval knights had a special joint or socket on their saddles to let the horse carry the majority of the weight of their lances. You could probably train a horse to respond to leg movements instead of a reins and bridle setup as well. For the saddle joint/socket idea, you could just limit twohanded weapons an Outrider can use to hafted weapons (greatmauls and greataxes, maybe tridents too). For the "leg movements" thing, could tie ability to use two-handed weapons to mounted combat skill, and have it enable use of twohanded weapons while mounted at Mounted Combat skill level 3, as an example.

Just some ideas.
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Nagyhal
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Re: Class idea - Outrider (with suggestions for mounted mobs

#7 Post by Nagyhal »

Lovely positive feedback from you guys!

I was homeless for a while, and on top of that certain Tome releases started to be unplayable on my netbook, so I stopped playing or being interested in gaming as a whole. Really enjoying these latest betas now, though.

I'll start coding this after the next few days. Need something to refamiliarize myself with the game's source (as much as Lua itself) in the meantime.

You make a lot of good points I'll take into account, if taking account can ever mean the same thing as direct appropriation.

Also, I have some cool new talents to post after I've cleared them up, based on actual Mongol terror tactics! (Howling Arrows, Living Shield, Impalement, drinking their steeds' blood as sustenance, etc). Those and some clarifications soon to follow.

jenx
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Re: Class idea - Outrider (with suggestions for mounted mobs

#8 Post by jenx »

Great idea. I think they should be prohibited from wielding short weapons, daggers etc
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bricks
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Re: Class idea - Outrider (with suggestions for mounted mobs

#9 Post by bricks »

Awesome design. If you are looking for more mount ideas, how about a sandworm? The tunneling abilities would have to be toned down, of course. Further, I think each animal should have its own talent tree (and perhaps one or two shared trees), and every time you get a new beast, you should be able to reallocate stats. It would add a lot of variety to the class, and I don't think it would be too in the face of the "no reallocation" policy for player characters.
Sorry about all the parentheses (sometimes I like to clarify things).

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Re: Class idea - Outrider (with suggestions for mounted mobs

#10 Post by catwhowalksbyhimself »

No, a better way to do it would be for the mounts to have their own skill trees which you could level, like with the alchemists golem. Get a new mount, he'd be automatically leveled to the same as the old one or according to whatever skills you have, then you simply allocate the points on the new mount.
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bricks
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Re: Class idea - Outrider (with suggestions for mounted mobs

#11 Post by bricks »

catwhowalksbyhimself wrote:No, a better way to do it would be for the mounts to have their own skill trees which you could level, like with the alchemists golem. Get a new mount, he'd be automatically leveled to the same as the old one or according to whatever skills you have, then you simply allocate the points on the new mount.
Yep, that was what I meant. I could have been clearer.
Sorry about all the parentheses (sometimes I like to clarify things).

jenx
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Re: Class idea - Outrider (with suggestions for mounted mobs

#12 Post by jenx »

I hope someone can code this class!
MADNESS rocks

marvalis
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Re: Class idea - Outrider (with suggestions for mounted mobs

#13 Post by marvalis »

Would be interesting if you can stable and capture beasts. For example, if you want to ride a sand drake then you have to capture it. Dismount, cast 'stable' and stable your horse (this is magical and not very realistic but who cares). then you fight the drake one on one to tame it. Then you call the stable and choose the pet you want. This way you can keep a nice collection of beasts. Stable only works if nothing is within LOS, just like teleport to angolwen.

If the player can stable a large selection of breeds, then there is no need for a skill that summons a random creature. This way if you want a dragon you have to go hunt for it. You can add some new area's with special monsters that can be tames. Perhaps have a special kind of dragon that can be tamed at the end of a quest chain (prismatic dragon for example, that gives better resistance bonuses) (other classes can kill this dragon for the loot).
jenx wrote:Great idea. I think they should be prohibited from wielding short weapons, daggers etc
Nope, berserkers can wield staves. In tome 4 there are no restriction to what weapon you use, but some work better with certain skills.

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Re: Class idea - Outrider (with suggestions for mounted mobs

#14 Post by rexorcorum »

As Nagyhal was just asking on irc for opinions and ideas, I realised that I've never pushed my concepts for the outrider in the thread. So here they are now - with some new retouches and stuff :)

Image

Image

Cheers!
Last edited by rexorcorum on Thu Mar 02, 2017 1:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Nagyhal
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Re: Class idea - Outrider (with suggestions for mounted mobs

#15 Post by Nagyhal »

Oh yeah, Rex, these are inspiring, gorgeous, basically I never believed things could be so good.

You've really given me the inspiration I need to get cracking on the code front!

So far mounts are working, loyalty is working, the new things are working stupendously well in general... I'm halfway through implementing spiders and have got an excellent set of talent trees for wolves already...

I'll try to start pushing a change to the code every day as I have been doing for Beholders!

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