Reworking difficulty levels

[Zonk]

I always play Normal, because the higher difficulties aren't really attractive to me.
They're just penalties for the player and bonuses to the monsters.
You'll face the same monsters, traps...only you'll be weaker and they be stronger.

I think that is a bit 'meh'.

So here's my main idea:

Nightmare and insane would not affect healing or damage suffered/dealt directly. Instead....they would would significantly increase the level of all dungeons but not the exp received(and perhaps make the loot dropped by foes inferior, too? Actually might not be needed, as good loot needs proper stats to equip anyway).

This means FAR more than numerical penalties to the player and bonuses to the enemies.
It means you'd face DIFFERENT creatures/traps and challenges.

For example, on Insane you could regularly fight Elite Skeletons in Amon Sul instead of normal ones, perhaps even Huorns in the Trollshaws.
You could fight drakes where at 'normal'difficulty you'd get hatchlings and so on.
Your enemies would be more challenging - not because they get a +damage% bonus or because you have a penalty, but because they're DIFFERENT and with better talents/special powers.



I also had two other ideas:

1)Higher difficulties could disable/nerf stuff like healing potions, escort quests, shop use...
That would make the player who want a real challenge happy without making the game harder for everyone

2)Some sort of 'hardcore'/'speed'/'heroic' mode that works similarly to the main idea(higher dungeon level), with a very important difference - you DO get the better rewards from facing more powerful opponents, mainly exp.
That would let you level up faster if you can survive(and thus gain more flexibility/cool talents), but you'd still have to face more more dangerous challenges.
Not a real difficulty but an alternate way to play the game - which I do realize could slightly overlap with the 'Infinite Dungeons'campaign.

[Sirrocco]

...but then you get to endgame. Normally, the options for high-level monsters run out about the same time the game does. With this plan, the coders would either have to build an entire new tier of monsters on the top that only higher-difficulty characters basically ever saw (which seems inefficient of coding time) or you'd max out some time before the end, and you'd keep getting better while they all stayed the same. Sure, you could also have the monster level for the individual monsters keep cranking up, but that's a limited boost, compared to actual harder monster types, and somewhat monotonous as well.

[Susramanian]

Great ideas, Zonk. That would make me very excited about playing on harder difficulty levels. I too dislike the current scheme of simply making the player's numbers smaller and the monsters' numbers bigger.

Sirrocco, you're right that the advantages of Zonk's system disappear in the endgame. And the fix of having monster levels boosted isn't an ideal fix, certainly, but it's no worse than the current system. At least it would only be an issue for a portion of the game, unlike now. This issue raises an interesting question, actually. How do we increase the range of monster capabilities without manually adding new monsters? I think one of the keys to making a long, deep game is figuring out how to add content without truly adding content-- figuring out how to add dimensions to existing content. This is why randarts are good. This is why random level generation is good.

My first impulse is to propose ego monsters, analogous to ego weapons. Characters running under harder difficulty levels in Zonk's system will find themselves facing all sorts of unusual horrors in the endgame that other characters wouldn't: shape-shifting orc blood mages, ethereal multi-hued wyrms, reproducing greater demons, etc. These sorts of enemies could show up rarely on normal difficulty, just so everybody gets to enjoy the new mechanic. Maybe they could be used as mini-bosses in certain vaults or something. Darkgod shouldn't really be coding them just for one difficulty level. I'm sure we can find all sorts of fun, appropriate uses of them on all difficulty levels.

My second idea is adding the capacity for randomly generated uniques, much like randarts. As above, sprinkle them around the game on all difficulties, but greatly boost their frequency in difficult mode, especially in the endgame. Quite similar to the ego monster suggestion, but it might be more fun to fight guys who have actual names.

[Gwai]

...but then you get to endgame. Normally, the options for high-level monsters run out about the same time the game does. With this plan, the coders would either have to build an entire new tier of monsters on the top that only higher-difficulty characters basically ever saw

Well, that would be a reason to play Insane! I like having that as an incentive, truthfully.

[Zonk]

The criticism about endgame content is actually valid and something I had not considered. However...
I feel that could be fixed with some higher-level monsters, which perhaps could be coded by players if DG doesn't want to be 'inefficient'.
DO keep in mind it might not be completely wasteful anyway, as monsters that wouldn't normally show in an average-difficulty 'standard' game could show up in 'weird'modes like the Infinite Dungeon.

I've actually wanted ego monsters too - I agree they shouldn't be difficulty-exclusive, although they might be indirectly more common at higher levels, because most ego types would make a monster stronger, although there could be exceptions, say a 'crippled' ego types, or egos that make a monster situational weaker/stronger(for example a 'brutish' monster could have higher str, con, but lower dex and have a worse AI).

Note that monster ego don't HAVE to be magical or exotic. You could even have some that are class based...say a warrior-type ego that gives some monster types higher str, con, dex and fighter talents, a rogue-type ego that gives dex, cunning and stealth talents..and so on.
You DO need to give the ego monsters a proper AI, however.

[Sirrocco]

Actually, one of the cool things about egos here is that after you get a few egos coded, you can start stacking them - with higher difficulties stacking more things.

...so our friend the reproducing splitting regenerating orc blood mage starts being a really *interesting* end-game challenge for the folks playing on insane mode - and as you up your difficulty level, the challenges you face become less predictable, rather than more.

I have no grasp of the code, so I don't even know if this is even sensical, but my understanding is that each monster has a character level and a type level - so a level 4 stone troll would have a character level of 4 and a type level of whatever it is that stone trolls have. Egos, then, would have a type level adjustment associated - something that was of type level 4, with a +4 ego would normally generate in areas that encouraged type level 8. Higher difficulties would increase the type levels of the various locations they were in, leading to harder monster types across the board. They'd also have higher chances for egos, and more egos allowed per monster. Normal might allow one ego at a time, while insane might allow three. While generating a monster, you'd find the overall class level through the normal means, check for egos, subtract the ego levels to find the new class level, and then generate an appropriate monster.

Of course, the possibility of being unexpectedly charged by a "sickly vulnerable naga myrmidon" a dungeon or two before you expected to see any of his ilk would *also* add to the entertainment value. Sure, a lot of the ego setups would make the monsters they accreted to less dangerous that one might expect, by adding together oddly, or adding to the original monster oddly (adding a "phase door" spell to the spell list of a mighty mage who has better things to do with his time just makes him easier. On the other hand, adding it to the spell list of a fast, reproducing monster...). On the other hand, there would also be times when the starts would align *wrong* - and significantly up the challenge. A pack of 4 orcs who are pushovers and one who can very nearly kill you by himself is a lot more dangerous than 5 that are just the standard trouble to chew through.

...and you don't really need to give them a "proper AI". Moar AI = moar better, in the same way that moar stuff = moar better, but you add plenty of extra interesting challenge with simple, easy additions that require basically no AI at all. "Add this useful power, and have them use it sometimes", "give them this interesting passive effect" and "Buff their stats out in this other interesting way" require little to no AI add-on.

[Mithril]

Very interesting topic. To summarize the ideas stated above:

1. Current system. Make current monsters stronger and/or the player/items weaker by applying a multiplier. I do not like it. It feels like the opposite side is cheating.

2. Readjust monster/trap/etc creation to higher levels than on normal.

As noted above, this requires creating new content for the endgame. A simple solution could be creating high-level monsters with random abilities added on to current monsters. This may well create rather strange monsters.

3. Remove specific things helping the player such as healing potions and shops. A problem with it it that it likely will affect different classes unequally.

Some new suggestions:
4. Better AI. No sure if this could be done. But maybe it could, like the monsters always using their best talents first instead of randomly selecting one, attacking with the element the player has least resistance against, if the monster has a breath weapon such as dragons it will use it as often as possible, and so on.

5. More monsters. That is, instead of spawning one monster, on hard two monsters are spawned, if possible, so there are about double the numbers of monsters on the level. Exp per monster halved to preserve current leveling speed per dungeon. This would give a nice epic feel where you are wading though monsters on higher difficulties. May possible create performance problems.

[kingvictory2003]

As long as ego-monsters don't include Lightning Aura + Multiplying Shots, I'll be fine with changes

BRRRZAAAAAAAAAP!!!

[Mithril]

A possible change in monster behavior that would likely make the game different:

1. Monsters avoid corridors. Corridors are helpful for the player since it limit group attacks. So monsters will move to open space and do not follow the player if he enters a corridor. The exception to this are monsters with high speed and very powerful monsters.

2. Monsters that do not have distance attacks place themselves at the corners of the doors or surround monsters with distance attacks (of the non-ray/missile type so the attack cannot be hit themselves).

3. Monsters with distance weapons place themselves in the corners of the room or at the opposite side of the room of a door so that they can see into the corridor and shoot at the player for as long as possible.

[Zonk]

Very interesting topic. To summarize the ideas stated above:

1. Current system. Make current monsters stronger and/or the player/items weaker by applying a multiplier. I do not like it. It feels like the opposite side is cheating.

I don't like that either, that's why I made the thread

2. Readjust monster/trap/etc creation to higher levels than on normal.

As noted above, this requires creating new content for the endgame. A simple solution could be creating high-level monsters with random abilities added on to current monsters. This may well create rather strange monsters.

Again, I don't feel like coming up with new high level content is THAT big of a problem, and as for the strange monsters - I'd enforce sanity by putting a cap on the TOTAL level adjustment(both positive and negative) a monster could have, probably based on the base level of the dungeon/creature.

Sorry sirocco, no reproducing splitting regenerating orc blood mage

3. Remove specific things helping the player such as healing potions and shops. A problem with it it that it likely will affect different classes unequally.

Good point, although it's a bit like that now too. Pretty sure reduced healing matters much more for some classes than for others.

Some new suggestions:
4. Better AI. No sure if this could be done. But maybe it could, like the monsters always using their best talents first instead of randomly selecting one, attacking with the element the player has least resistance against, if the monster has a breath weapon such as dragons it will use it as often as possible, and so on.

I had considered this, but I feel that better AI - which shouldn't ALWAYS mean 'smarter', some monsters should be artificially stupid - should be a feature of individual monsters, not difficulty levels.
So higher-level monsters should (GENERALLY) have better AI, and with my system, you'd tend to face more of them.

To be clearer - when I talk about 'artificially stupid' I mean that for some monsters, acting randomly/stupidly IS in character.
Dragons(at least adult ones) would breathe as often as they could because they're pretty smart creatures, and bandit/rogue/some human NPCS should be very cunning, but I wouldn't want orcish berserkers to be very intelligent in the way they use their talents. Unless it's setting appropriate(perhaps orcs are great tacticians).

5. More monsters. That is, instead of spawning one monster, on hard two monsters are spawned, if possible, so there are about double the numbers of monsters on the level. This would give a nice epic feel where you are wading though monsters on higher difficulties. May possible create performance problems.

I could actually see using this INSTEAD of average just to level up faster
Which perhaps isn't what you wanted. It is interesting, but I'm not sure it's really more challenging, per se.
It might even be more boring if you can say, fight in corridors. It also doesnt' affect classes with area damage too much.



By the way - I mentioned giving exp penalties in my first post, so that you don't level up faster despite facing tougher monsters.
I now realize that there might not be a real need to do that, as the exp system is biased anyway to not give a lot of extra exp for really powerful monsters(except perhaps bosses)

[Mithril]

5. More monsters. That is, instead of spawning one monster, on hard two monsters are spawned, if possible, so there are about double the numbers of monsters on the level. This would give a nice epic feel where you are wading though monsters on higher difficulties. May possible create performance problems.

I could actually see using this INSTEAD of average just to level up faster
Which perhaps isn't what you wanted. It is interesting, but I'm not sure it's really more challenging, per se.
It might even be more boring if you can say, fight in corridors. It also doesnt' affect classes with area damage too much.

Here you could just halve exp per monster so current exp per dungeon is preserved. The effect would likely be different depending on the dungeon. The prides would be much more difficult. You are likely right that such a model would affect different classes differently, but if a class is not affected by having to cast double the number, or at least more, of area spells, then there is something wrong with that class.

[Mithril]

Here is a variant of of suggestion 3 above that has a story reason for increasing difficulty which would be nice.

Hard: Evil is ravaging the land. The land and towns have been devastated. In effect, this means no shops or other city features except as required by the story. To create atmosphere the buildings in the towns could be shown to be damaged and the towns abandoned.

Very Hard: Evil has won. That land has been under the domination of evil forces for a long time. As under hard. Also no escort quests. All artifacts have been found by evil forces and destroyed except as required by the story. To create atmosphere the color of the land could be changed to a depressing, bleak gray.

[Sirrocco]

Mithril - it's flavorful and all, but... well, many of the artifacts you get are taken from the cold, dead hands of evil people that were using them. "Evil has won" isn't going to make there be no artifacts in the world.

Also, these seem better as challenge game switches (in some sort of an option screen that could be pulled up during chargen) than as difficulty levels. I do think that "Ironman: no escort quests" would be a fine switch to put in at some point, though, along with such favorites as "Ironman: no shops" and "Ironman: no artifacts".

[Mithril]

Mithril - it's flavorful and all, but... well, many of the artifacts you get are taken from the cold, dead hands of evil people that were using them. "Evil has won" isn't going to make there be no artifacts in the world.

Also, these seem better as challenge game switches (in some sort of an option screen that could be pulled up during chargen) than as difficulty levels. I do think that "Ironman: no escort quests" would be a fine switch to put in at some point, though, along with such favorites as "Ironman: no shops" and "Ironman: no artifacts".

One can easily invent various reasons for that some evil overforce have destroyed/collected/negated all artifacts. Anyway, that particular story was not the main point, the story was just an example of how there could story reasons for having changed things with higher difficulty levels.

Thinking some more, I am not sure how I feel about simply fighting higher level monsters or randomized buffed up variants of current monsters. Not very different to simply buffing them up as per the current system. It would be nice if something changed beside just buffing up the monsters. So I think 3, 4, or 5 above would be nice, maybe in addition to buffing the monsters.

[Sirrocco]

The point about egos (ie "randomized buffing") is that it will wind up with unusual combinations and unexpected situations, that you'll have to adapt to. They won't just have somewhat different stats (which could get pretty boring) they'll actually have different capabilities, and the strategies that you developed to deal with the base beasties may fail horrifically (or hilariously) in the face of whatever new capability it is that they have.