Quidix wrote:
To be clear - actually I don't think any of the things I mentioned are truly exploits, I think they are just incredibly OP skills, similar to what was used in the Wyrmic run. The argument was more that, either in they are all using exploits, or they are all using OP skills. Also the point was the 'invincibility' is as much an exploit as 'extreme damage'.
In general, you speak as you're 100% sure that all these wins are not legit? What proof do you have of this claim beyond not having seen the proof? Genuinely curious as I haven't heard / seen it. Also, you seem to refer to a shift in the community opinion on how to view this, what is this based on? I haven't seen anything on it myself, but I might have missed it. I'm in the chat a lot, and certainly haven't seen in there, and if here on the forum, I must have missed it.
In my mind there's three different steps (1) legitimate and proven, as the possessor run you mentioned, (2) legitimate but not proven, or (3) illegitimate. Point here being that just because you don't trust it, that doesn't mean that the win is not legitimate - in my mind (2) would still be a real win. Of course, people are allowed to not trust (2), but that is a completely separate point. The AM/AB/PM/SB/Brawler wins are all either (2) or (3) - from what I know there's no way to know. Calling everyone cheaters just because they haven't recorded their game-play for 24+ hours feels rather harsh to me. Finally, even when recording, surely one can still savescum by editing out parts? Unless it is all streamed live?
On a small separate note, I've personally got past Vor A with PM (died in second Pride), without any savescumming at all. Of course, as per the discussion above you're free to not believe in that, but I don't really have any reason to lie about a character that didn't win. So, I well understand how the temporal fugue stuff works.
Minmay: Didn't realise stone wall was even more broken than I thought!
I'm 100% sure that no shesh win is legit, and there is proof out there of it.
and btw I do believe you when you say you got to the prides on a PM
The shift in the community is easy to explain. It started when I exposed Archmage's weakness giving fact after fact of how they aren't the best class in the game, which is a lie that's been passed down to new players and the cycle continues. I talked to 100's of people on the reddit, discord, and steam forums about how AM isn't that great and at first people didn't want to believe it, as it's hard to go against something you've been conditioned for years to trust. Then I started talking to lots of vets of the game in discord about it daily until they finally understood where I'm coming from. I finally realized that the ONLY reason these lies get passed around are because of the so called AM & AB "madness wins". Here's some proof of what I'm talking about
viewtopic.php?f=39&t=48418&hilit=arcane+blade"They have enough damage to clear madness" this is what almost everyone goes with & "they have aegis/disruption shield etc." When all the points the OP made are true, AB isn't good or fun anymore. Just because there's an AB so called "madness win" doesn't mean the game is balanced around madness. Same goes for Archmage. So these classes are kept in their weak state because of "wins" when there is NO proof of the runs being legit. In 1.4 you couldn't even do the infinite Stone Wall exploit yet there's not a single 1.5 AM or AB madness win when they can now achieve immortality? Kinda strange right?
So I started talking to people about madness wins, and again no one believed me. They said they're legit just because they "trust" or "want to believe" the player is legit. They said the burden of proof is on me to prove these wins aren't legit.
This changed when Mex actually started playing again to prove that he can win madness legit on AM, and this time he started streaming the entire run on twitch, even the drowning part. There isn't proof of the AM win in 1.4, but there's proof that me & 100's of people all witnessed on twitch that AM isn't good on madness, and can't even make it to the east in 1.5. It proved everything I've been saying about AM to be true. If Mex, who is THE Archmage, couldn't do it then how is the class that great at all? After that both Mex & Ster (Ster also did a PM run proving the superiority of the class & exposing AM even more) did stream entire madness possessor runs and won on twitch.
If the guy who's known for winning on AM & AB (and people blindly trust his wins to be legit) knew that there IS validity in my statements and doubt, and started to stream madness runs after not playing for a long period of time, then that's saying something. If players are truly looking to complete a legit roguelike madness win they will follow his example & stream it if they're doing it for some sort of "glory" or whatever. If they're doing it for fun and don't really care if people know about the win then proving themselves won't really matter, but the fact stands that the burden of proof is now on the player
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please try not to be so condescending. I play on Madness.