ToME: the Tales of Maj'Eyal

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 01, 2013 6:22 pm 
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Cornac

Joined: Sun Jan 20, 2013 8:49 am
Posts: 33
StarKeep wrote:
Upon finishing the digestion of the Half-Finished Bone Giant as a skeleton, the game will strait up crash. No error messsage popup.
This should be fixed in the next version, in which you can't Devour self-resurrecting creatures.

Sradac wrote:
Also, I seem to be missing the point of this class but...whats the point?

I admit I didnt play long, only cleared 2 starter dungeons, but the entire time I was eating whatever enemy I could (obviously not bosses). And I get nothing from it. No stat points, no talent points, didnt learn any new talents.

It would be super cool if it was like the blue mage from FF9 (Quina) where eating enemies let you learn their talents but, it dosent seem to be happening?
In the next version, you can gain talents from any creature.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 01, 2013 7:27 pm 
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Sher'Tul

Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2007 3:18 am
Posts: 1081
Location: Angolwen
I have a question on catabilize.

If I eat a rare or boss, and use that talent, do I get BOTH the normal bonus's plus the temporary buff? I'd hate to catabilize a nice boss and only get a temporary buff from it.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 01, 2013 7:30 pm 
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Sher'Tul

Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2007 3:18 am
Posts: 1081
Location: Angolwen
ooh that sounds cool... Would it be possible to totally randomize what you get from yard trash? Eating say 10 snow giant boulder throwers could become pretty insane. It'd be nice that not only a chance to get a talent, you could get (at a very minor level) any +%resistance, +%damage type, +%res pen, etc. But have it totally random so you only get 1 thing per enemy.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 01, 2013 10:52 pm 
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Cornac

Joined: Tue Feb 05, 2013 1:48 pm
Posts: 34
Now that every creature gives a talent the class became a little OP.

I'm obtaining talents at insane levels and I just started... wondering how much of weapon mastery and armor mastery I could get....

So maybe a good idea would be to set a maximum level of (talent level of a class skill) to obtaineable talents or limit it to con/10?

If you choose to make it a talent this could be set as the second pasive of gluttony/diggestion, because right now is strange a tier lvl 2 talent improves a tier lvl 4.

Also, some talents that should'nt not bet learnable:

Howl, command staff, block, shoot, reload, multiply.

Also, telekinetic grasp (isn't this learned obtaining another mindslayer talent?, got it from a rare and I can't use it because I don't have the item slot for it)


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 01, 2013 11:00 pm 
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Thalore

Joined: Mon Feb 04, 2013 9:31 pm
Posts: 186
No no no, figure out a way to make howl and multiply work! Come on, it would be fun.

By the way, try not to nerf this too much, because it's ok for addons to be a little unbalanced. This one might be that, but it's also really fun. If I wanted difficulty, I'd go play a yeek cursed or something.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 01, 2013 11:36 pm 
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Archmage

Joined: Tue Nov 09, 2010 7:43 pm
Posts: 356
Make it so that when your granted a talent from a mob it will only increase by one up to the max of talent points the mob has in the talent. Thus if the talent would of made you go over the max that they had you would not be granted that talent. This should help avoid the infinite stacking of talent levels to impossible levels. If you want to further nerf it you could make it cap at rank 5 for each skill if on main story mode (id dungeon can have higher caps with mods i think).


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 01, 2013 11:48 pm 
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Archmage

Joined: Tue Nov 09, 2010 7:43 pm
Posts: 356
if you want stat gain to be more balanced you should just have normal leveling stat gain and only gaining talents from devouring mobs.
Also for talents that the character can't use instead give a custom talent up to whatever rank that the mob has instead of granting the unusable talent.
For example: for the mass of worm ability mulitply instead make it a summoning talent that summons a few very weak ranked mass of worms to act as cannon fodder and for howl give a ability that calls you summons to you or summons wolves.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 01, 2013 11:56 pm 
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Cornac

Joined: Sun Jan 20, 2013 8:49 am
Posts: 33
Sradac wrote:
ooh that sounds cool... Would it be possible to totally randomize what you get from yard trash? Eating say 10 snow giant boulder throwers could become pretty insane. It'd be nice that not only a chance to get a talent, you could get (at a very minor level) any +%resistance, +%damage type, +%res pen, etc. But have it totally random so you only get 1 thing per enemy.
This would very likely be OP; you could get very high stats in not much time. I'll probably do something like it, though.

Emaster wrote:
Now that every creature gives a talent the class became a little OP.

I'm obtaining talents at insane levels and I just started... wondering how much of weapon mastery and armor mastery I could get....

So maybe a good idea would be to set a maximum level of (talent level of a class skill) to obtaineable talents or limit it to con/10?

If you choose to make it a talent this could be set as the second pasive of gluttony/diggestion, because right now is strange a tier lvl 2 talent improves a tier lvl 4.
This is a great idea. In 0.0.5, talents learned from Digestion will be capped at the level of Gastric Acid.

Emaster wrote:
Also, some talents that should'nt not bet learnable:

Howl, command staff, block, shoot, reload, multiply.

Also, telekinetic grasp (isn't this learned obtaining another mindslayer talent?, got it from a rare and I can't use it because I don't have the item slot for it)
I'll leave Howl and Multiply. You shouldn't be able to learn Command Staff, Block, Shoot, or Reload directly in 0.0.3 and above. Let me know if you can still learn them. Telekinetic Grasp is now unlearnable in 0.0.5.

Amphouse wrote:
No no no, figure out a way to make howl and multiply work! Come on, it would be fun.

By the way, try not to nerf this too much, because it's ok for addons to be a little unbalanced. This one might be that, but it's also really fun. If I wanted difficulty, I'd go play a yeek cursed or something.
Don't worry, I'll do my best to make sure that the Glutton stays fun ;)

Hellcommander wrote:
Make it so that when your granted a talent from a mob it will only increase by one up to the max of talent points the mob has in the talent. Thus if the talent would of made you go over the max that they had you would not be granted that talent. This should help avoid the infinite stacking of talent levels to impossible levels. If you want to further nerf it you could make it cap at rank 5 for each skill if on main story mode (id dungeon can have higher caps with mods i think).
Another great idea. In 0.0.5, talents learned from Digestion are now capped to both the effective talent level of Gastric Acid and the level at which the digested creature knew the talent.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 02, 2013 12:00 am 
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Cornac

Joined: Sun Jan 20, 2013 8:49 am
Posts: 33
Sradac wrote:
I have a question on catabilize.

If I eat a rare or boss, and use that talent, do I get BOTH the normal bonus's plus the temporary buff? I'd hate to catabilize a nice boss and only get a temporary buff from it.
No, Catabolize grants only temporary bonuses. Otherwise it would just replace Digestion.

Hellcommander wrote:
if you want stat gain to be more balanced you should just have normal leveling stat gain and only gaining talents from devouring mobs.
We'll see how it is with the stat gain nerf in 0.0.4.

Hellcommander wrote:
Also for talents that the character can't use instead give a custom talent up to whatever rank that the mob has instead of granting the unusable talent.
For example: for the mass of worm ability mulitply instead make it a summoning talent that summons a few very weak ranked mass of worms to act as cannon fodder and for howl give a ability that calls you summons to you or summons wolves.
Interesting idea, but then you would be learning talents that the creatures don't actually know, which would break the theme of osmosis through digestion.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 02, 2013 1:33 am 
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Cornac

Joined: Tue Feb 05, 2013 1:48 pm
Posts: 34
desophos wrote:
This is a great idea. In 0.0.5, talents learned from Digestion will be capped at the level of Gastric Acid.


Yea, just be enable the player to get the first talent level without the passive or first levels will be impossible to get talents.

desophos wrote:
I'll leave Howl and Multiply. You shouldn't be able to learn Command Staff, Block, Shoot, or Reload directly in 0.0.3 and above. Let me know if you can still learn them. Telekinetic Grasp is now unlearnable in 0.0.5.


I'm pretty sure I got the last version, i'm not getting talents like attack but I got those. I have shot talent lvl 2 now..


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 02, 2013 2:32 am 
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Sher'Tul

Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2007 3:18 am
Posts: 1081
Location: Angolwen
oh yeah, now that everything gives talents it is WAY op. Just go to heart of gloom, or norgos lair for some crazy fun. My poisonous bite is level 27 lol. Does close to 200 damage per turn, and im only level 9.

I'd much rather see yard trash give a stat point, or .5 stat points. While stats could go out of control, I dont see it being as crazy as having a poisonous bite that does about 1k damage over 5 turns early on, or a stun that lasts 10 turns with a 4 turn cooldown.

That or make it a lot more random, critters have 10% chance to give a talent, normal have 25% chance, elite have 50%, and rare / boss have 100% chance to give a talent? I think that could work if you can make it happen.

Oh yeah but things are going to be capped at gastric acid / creatures talent level isnt it? That might be a bit harsh, its not uncommon for players to 5/5 several talents before finishing all the t1 dungeons but I dont think there's a single creature with a talent at level 5. Also, some enemies have talents higher than level 5, but we wont be able to?

While having a level 27 poisonous bite is a great example of how this can go out of control, it'd still be fun to be able to get talents above level 5. And with so few stat points to go around for these to scale off of, I dont think it'd be that bad.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 02, 2013 2:43 am 
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Sher'Tul Godslayer

Joined: Fri May 07, 2004 8:26 pm
Posts: 2000
Location: Nahgharash
How about diminishing returns? It would hurt ID characters, but balance the main game better. One 'eat' of a talent grants talent level 1, each one after that is worth progressively less, so you would have to eat a talent a LOT more then 5 times to get an effective level of 5. Maybe take an additional 5 for level 2? scale that exponentially, and you stop out of control game scaling. (Numbers off the top of my head, adjust accordingly.)

You could then further balance this by applying that AND the gastric acid solution. Full talent level gain up to the level of your gastric acid, and reduced gains beyond that. Eventually you hit a point where it takes another 50 'eats' to get one more talent level, which woud balance marvelously, even in the ID. Once the ID raises cap on gastric acid, you'd be able to accelerate the gains on the other talents to keep up, and adjusting like that seems to be the best choice, especially if combined with a non-guaranteed chance for talents. (I'd scale it WAY down for normal mobs, under the 5% mark at least.) Rares/elites/bosses etc should probably have more, but not a perfect chance for anything but bosses. Again, this holds balance for both main game and ID fairly even. (And you definitely shouldn't fail to consider the ID, since it's a VERY heavily played mode by people tired of the main story.)

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 02, 2013 2:53 am 
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Sher'Tul

Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2007 3:18 am
Posts: 1081
Location: Angolwen
edit -- whoops, wrong thread.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 02, 2013 7:48 am 
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Cornac

Joined: Sun Jan 20, 2013 8:49 am
Posts: 33
Sradac wrote:
I'd much rather see yard trash give a stat point, or .5 stat points. While stats could go out of control, I dont see it being as crazy as having a poisonous bite that does about 1k damage over 5 turns early on, or a stun that lasts 10 turns with a 4 turn cooldown.
It's already easy to get insane stats after a bit. Getting stats from every monster you Devour would definitely take things out of control.

Sradac wrote:
That or make it a lot more random, critters have 10% chance to give a talent, normal have 25% chance, elite have 50%, and rare / boss have 100% chance to give a talent? I think that could work if you can make it happen.
I don't think this is a very interesting way of dealing with it.

Sradac wrote:
Oh yeah but things are going to be capped at gastric acid / creatures talent level isnt it? That might be a bit harsh, its not uncommon for players to 5/5 several talents before finishing all the t1 dungeons but I dont think there's a single creature with a talent at level 5. Also, some enemies have talents higher than level 5, but we wont be able to?
I think getting an insane number of talents makes up for them being low level. Also, the Gastric Acid cap works off effective talent level, so at level 5 it can be up to 8 or higher.

Crim, The Red Thunder wrote:
How about diminishing returns?
This is an interesting idea. I might implement that in a future version, if my changes don't work well.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 02, 2013 5:11 pm 
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Cornac

Joined: Thu Dec 06, 2012 3:21 am
Posts: 32
I freaking love this class, it's so much fun!! One thing i would like to see that i think goes with Glutton's theme: a size increase from eating too much, like every 1000 creatures digested, up one size.


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