ToME: the Tales of Maj'Eyal

The majority of classes can complete Insane, however some will find it harder than others, as such the list is based mainly on this.

To be Tier S you must stream (with chat on) the full Madness Roguelike run for the class. Using official/convenience (i.e drowning/start scumming) add-ons except the Item Vault is fine. Using exploits will not make your win valid.

Not listed in any particular order within each tier.

Classes

Tier S
Possessor

Tier A
Arcane Blade
Archmage
Necromancer
Paradox Mage
Shadowblade

Tier B
Archer
Brawler
Marauder
Mindslayer
Sawbutcher
Sun Paladin
Temporal Warden

Tier C
Berserker
Corruptor
Demonologist
Doombringer
Oozemancer
Psyshot
Reaver
Rogue
Stone Warden
Summoner

Tier D
Anorithil
Cursed
Doomed
Gunslinger
Skirmisher
Solipsist
Wyrmic

Tier E
Alchemist
Bulwark

Races

Tier S
Shalore

Tier A
Cornac
Ogre

Tier B
Doomelf
Dwarf
Thalore

Tier C
Halfling
Higher
Yeek

Tier D
Ghoul
Skeleton

Yep, this is accurate.

Any opinions on how to bring the C races up to par?

What is the Necromancer equivalent of Unstoppable/Aegis/Damage Smearing?

I would bump Anorithil up to B purely on the basis of not being melee. They're no weaker than Paradox Mages, for sure.

For races, I wouldn't say that the C tier races are subpar, just that Shalore is too good. They've always been the master race and then they even received further buffs because they were commonly perceived as weak by people who hadn't quite learned how to leverage the incredible power that is Timeless. Cornac can't really be directly nerfed and Thalore aren't so far above the C tier that it's that big of a concern.

donkatsu wrote:What is the Necromancer equivalent of Unstoppable/Aegis/Damage Smearing?

Sacrifice, presumably.

Correct on the sacrifice point.

Anorithil don't really have much going for them.

They have Celestial/Light I will give you that but don't really have a way to abuse it enough for it to compensate for their mediocrity in other areas.

Not being melee doesn't warrant getting bumped up as mobs are in fact ranged sometimes.

I should point out that Tiers are relative to each other, the races get lumped into C because they are not as good as Shalore/Cornac/Thalore, not because they are necessarily bad (although relative to Shalore they are). The races can also be dependent on the class you choose, but overall this is how they stack up.

Of course this is relatively subjective but I am open to arguments for moving up/down tiers as I wouldn't mind having a comprehensive list.

Its interesting you put cornac so high. I don't disagree myself, I use them often, but a lot of people get down on them.

Paradox Mages and Anorithils both have:
Confuse (Ano > PM)
Stun (PM > Ano)
Enemy cloning
Persistent knockback circles
Healing (Ano > PM)
Status removal (Ano >> PM)
Damage (PM >> Ano)

And the unique things that really set them apart from each other are:
Paradox Mage: Paradox Clone, Dimensional Step (risk-free summon-and-flee damage)
Anorithil: Circle of Warding (basically amounts to projectile immunity), Circle of Sanctity (99 spellpower not too hard to get with spellsurge and mental save is typically the lowest of the 3)

I'll grant that Echoes of the Past and Paradox Clone outstrip Circles and Light, but the difference between them is nowhere near the difference between Anorithils and the rest of Tier C. I mean, what do Wyrmics even do?

So the A rank and lower classes, as far as anyone can tell, can not complete the game on Madness dificulty at all?

Red wrote:So the A rank and lower classes, as far as anyone can tell, can not complete the game on Madness dificulty at all?

Pretty much. You can consider Tier S as broken in some way, if you like. If a class can complete Madness, it has something fairly nuts going for it. In most cases it will be a combo of race and class. Unstoppable is amazing. Unstoppable with Timeless is godly.

I would probably slide necromancer and brawler one tier down. At least that can be justified by the lack of madness necromancer and insane brawler wins.

Shesh wrote:I would probably slide necromancer and brawler one tier down. At least that can be justified by the lack of madness necromancer and insane brawler wins.

Brawlers sucked maybe even more than wyrmics before they got buffed recetly so that probably explains a lot of it.

Funny that, except for the Archmage (with good shielding and lots of utility spells, a well-rounded package), what brings a class or race to Tier S status is a single talent. Remove just Timeless from Shalore or Unstoppable from Marauder, and you've turned a tiger into a housecat.

Maybe this should be a Talent/Tree Tier List?

I would have to disagree with the placement of anorithil lower than archers. I won my first nightmare try no problems as an anorithil, and still don't have a nightmare win on archer. In fact...I think there are only 2 archer nightmare winners in the vault. In *theory* archers may be more powerful than anorithil, but my experience at least in nightmare is the exact opposite.

After playing with them a bit and taking into consideration your points I have moved Anorithil up a tier.

I still think they have issues in mobility, which I guess can be compensated with movement infusion (the warp gates are just weird...).

The only other thing they don't have is good long range AoE that can corner snipe.

Although in the comparison to PM they make up for this with celestial cd reduction + celestial tree.

I generally don't like that a lot of their abilities are quite short ranged for a ranged class, but I agree that they aren't really as bad as the other Tier C classes.