ToME: the Tales of Maj'Eyal

Oh and dont include pool talents like T_EQUILIBRIUM_POOL

bump, we need those builds go on!

I'm not quite sure what to do about stat distribution. For a lot of classes, how you distribute your stats has a big effect on the order in which you gain talents. The build order maker has you distribute your stats uniformly across all levels, which forces you to have a really, really long #Stats string if you want your stat gain plan to be something like:
Mag until 44 Mag
Wil until 44 Wil
Mag until 60 Mag
Con until 59 Con
Wil until 60 Wil

Is that a bad thing? Should we have a #Stats string that's 600 characters long, or should we tailor builds around having a uniform stat distribution across all levels?

Yee we need those builds because for some beginners that game is really hard :F

Oups sorry missed your post
You can do 600 long lines it shouldnt be a problem, but are you sure a simpleir distribution wouldnt work?
if need be I could implement your scheme donkatsu yes

There are some bugs in the build order addon (at least, when used with the SVN version). There seems to be a serious space leak; I couldn't go past level 25 or so before my computer started swapping. And if you use the levelup option from the menu, you don't get stat points, which makes it not so handy.

Edit: Also, loadBuildOrder doesn't seem to do anything but give lua errors.

Someone mentioned this thread in the in-game chat, so I figured I'd ask... it's somewhat relevant.

Would it be possible to add a feature to the character vault to allow people to basically download character builds? So, say, a new fellow's rummaging around the vault and sees someone that made it to 20 without any deaths. They download a charbuild file, and the game will let them choose that as an auto-build path up to that point.

Optional stuff (arena, queen heart, etc.) might be a bit finicky, but I'd imagine just sticking points into reserve or something if it needs to invest in something that's not available would be alright.

My build was for b40 (or perhaps b41), I can't remember. But now playing b42 solidly, I don't think the Cursed build I offered would survive. The addition of @#$% rares means a new strategy, more survival focussed. Cursed can be built in so many different ways, and the stat increases I find now are much more dependent on equipment, as I try in the first 20 levels or so to get WIL and STR and CON as high as possible and as quickly as possible. so if vargh redemption drops, I switch to STR pumping etc.

So the idea of sample builds is still good, but a better implementation would be to have the stats as *goals*, so that if equipment is worn, the goal is reached and then the next goal is sought.

E.g. goal #1 STR = 20 goal #2 WIL = 20 goal #3 CON = 23 goal #4 STR = 28 goal #5 WIL = 28.

This would make a lot more sense I think, and make them more user-friendly.

Could this be coded?

jenx wrote:My build was for b40 (or perhaps b41), I can't remember. But now playing b42 solidly, I don't think the Cursed build I offered would survive. The addition of @#$% rares means a new strategy, more survival focussed. Cursed can be built in so many different ways, and the stat increases I find now are much more dependent on equipment, as I try in the first 20 levels or so to get WIL and STR and CON as high as possible and as quickly as possible. so if vargh redemption drops, I switch to STR pumping etc.

So the idea of sample builds is still good, but a better implementation would be to have the stats as *goals*, so that if equipment is worn, the goal is reached and then the next goal is sought.

E.g. goal #1 STR = 20 goal #2 WIL = 20 goal #3 CON = 23 goal #4 STR = 28 goal #5 WIL = 28.

This would make a lot more sense I think, and make them more user-friendly.

Could this be coded?

Sorry for the late reply . . .

How would that work? If I need a stat like STR=20 to wear a particular piece of armor, how can I wear it before I get to the stat goal? I, being a noob who does not figure out to wear specific stat-boosting equipment.

It seems to me that this concept needs to assume that at a certain level, a player will start running into certain levels of gear, and the builds need to build to that stat whether or not equipment is found right away.

So, a character that will never use other than light armor has their strength built fairly slowly to keep pace with that expected item finding, and a character that expects to use only mail and shields uses a different strength building rate, and a character that expects to use massive plate has a different rate yet.

Not to mention the stat requirements for skill selection, also assuming no equipment stat boosts.

All in all, this sounds like a pretty complex thing to impliment.

Is this request for builds still active? I note that the thread is from several months ago.

Bump - is this still wanted/needed? If so, how can I utilize the console and cheat mode so that I can make builds for various levels?

Yhea I'll post an uptaded version of the addon soon

I've long desired something like this, not so much as a player aid but for testing purposes.

It's hard to answer questions like "Do these changes break this class?" without testing them at a typical character level with typical gear and a typical talent setup, and in a zone appropriate for such a stage in the character's progress.

Of course, this would require a "sample gear setup" or even a random gear generator on top of what you're already offering.

One really interesting approach you could take would be to perform statistical analysis on the character vault, and derive your build orders algorithmically from that. You could even pick out separate build "types" based on local maxima. Which makes for quite a complicated computing problem—some might even say it'd be a lot of a fun to work on. I'll certainly be having a look into it at some point. Watch this space.

If this is still needed, I'd be able to give sample builds for any class that I've won with.

This is a commentary.

I like this idea but classes are, often enough, not quite so simple to players. Not all of the skill descriptions are actually clear (especially when synergies with other skills are involved), and understanding the mechanics behind things often informs my choice of using one skill or another in a situation. I can envision new players using skills and never understanding why one skill is so good, and another so bad. Or why one class is doing so well (because of passives they're not seeing on the bar) against certain monsters, and another isn't. Sometimes a build needs to be played a subtle way, others not so much. Will they understand that they need to peek and shoot around corners with that Arch Mage? Also, the enemy tooltip is dense, and if you actually want to know why you're failing to kill a particularly opaque monster, you have to inspect and understand what you're reading. They just won't understand what's happening, and with the game taking those choices from them I doubt they'll ever learn.

A new player will continue to stay a new player if you pick things for them.

Instead, why not have an optional "guide" you ask whether or not they'd like to enable? Then, when they open the skills menu to choose, there are indicators of what they should pick at this level (with a button they can press to do exactly that) according to the level plan they've chosen to follow. Stats highlighted in a color, with an up arrow beside the text, and so forth. That would get them to actually look at the skills and maybe see what they do, and eventually puzzle out why the build is going the way it's going at various stages. Maybe a hint or two about how to use the skill in a practical way. I realize this is more work, but I think it would be more effective at retaining new players.

infinityryvus wrote:This is a commentary.

I like this idea but classes are, often enough, not quite so simple to players. Not all of the skill descriptions are actually clear (especially when synergies with other skills are involved), and understanding the mechanics behind things often informs my choice of using one skill or another in a situation. I can envision new players using skills and never understanding why one skill is so good, and another so bad. Or why one class is doing so well (because of passives they're not seeing on the bar) against certain monsters, and another isn't. Sometimes a build needs to be played a subtle way, others not so much. Will they understand that they need to peek and shoot around corners with that Arch Mage? Also, the enemy tooltip is dense, and if you actually want to know why you're failing to kill a particularly opaque monster, you have to inspect and understand what you're reading. They just won't understand what's happening, and with the game taking those choices from them I doubt they'll ever learn.

A new player will continue to stay a new player if you pick things for them.

Instead, why not have an optional "guide" you ask whether or not they'd like to enable? Then, when they open the skills menu to choose, there are indicators of what they should pick at this level (with a button they can press to do exactly that) according to the level plan they've chosen to follow. Stats highlighted in a color, with an up arrow beside the text, and so forth. That would get them to actually look at the skills and maybe see what they do, and eventually puzzle out why the build is going the way it's going at various stages. Maybe a hint or two about how to use the skill in a practical way. I realize this is more work, but I think it would be more effective at retaining new players.

I mean, the thread is from 2012. Even the 2014 reply was a necro. I don't usually bash necros, but this is still 5 years from last reply date. Since I'm here replying anyway, I don't feel the game's skilling is complicated enough to warrant in-game advice built in. The forums or even in-game chat more than cover it if a newbie were having trouble imho.