Help a newbie out

[DragonMasterHawk]

Hey all. Tome 4's not quite my first roguelike, but it's the first that seems to go out of it's way to explain as little as possible about general game mechanics, so the question I pose is this:

How do you mitigate magic damage?

My number one cause of death is skeleton mages. They can manathrust me at infinite LOS range for about 100 damage every turn when I'm level 7. I'm not talking about opening vault doors; just walking around Kol'pur is enough to instagib me with me feeling like that was legitimately nothing I could do except choose to never enter that place. And if the answer turns out that you cannot mitigate straight magic damage, and that you must get elemental resistance, that's just ridiculous. It's not like arcane resistance gear just drops all the time.

I know I'm not alone here. The game statistics on the website also list the skeleton mage as the #1 killer. At least skeleton warriors have to be melee to stun-lock you to death. The mages will shoot through their allies to get you, so "strategic positioning" seems completely absent here. It would be fine if they were relegated to vaults only; it's just silly that the "second" dungeon of the game has such un-counterable enemies.

So, Tome community, tell me what I'm missing.

[Grey]

Well, an important thing to learn in ToME4 is that pumping HP early is important. All characters need a high Con score to buffer unavoidable high damage attacks.

As for tactics against the mages, make sure you have a good regeneration infusion (maybe two, or one and a shielding rune). The Wild infusion also gives resist to all, which can be handy. Try to duck around a corner and wait if the mage is out of range. Otherwise close in quick and use a stunning attack - they fall pretty easily, so you can ignore them a few rounds when they get stunned. Some form of monster detection helps a lot around the place - track, heightened senses, etc. Summertide Phial is also useful for seeing where you're going. Try to get some knowledge of your surroundings before advancing, and make sure you have a viable escape route.

However Kor'Pul is dangerous, and you shouldn't feel the need to go there straight after the Trollshaws. Some people prefer to level up a bit in the Old Forest first.

[DragonMasterHawk]

So I guess what you're saying is "no".

Just did a run following your advice. Put a few points into Con, saved Kor'pul until after Old Forest. Went pretty well. Got farther than I had, until I got to a boss that exclusively uses magic. Seems kind of silly that the only way to prepare for them is to grind until you're way higher level than you should rightfully need to be. My resists were as follows:

All Resists: 35%
Cold Resist(cap): 80%( 70%)
Nature Resist(cap): 65%( 70%)
Blight Resist(cap): 55%( 70%)
Light Resist(cap): 45%( 70%)
Darkness Resist(cap): 45%( 70%)

So it's not like I was doing that poorly for those. I dunno, it just seems weird that there isn't a magic resist stat of some kind. I don't think there should be a situation in which all but one of the monsters in a dungeon do literally 0 damage to me, except for one that just annihilates me, and that one isn't even a boss. I suppose that's just how this game is.

[greycat]

There's a Premonition skill that you can learn from an escort quest, which gives you some magic resistance. There's also an entire antimagic talent tree that some classes can learn (not the classes that begin with Mana, Vim, Positive or Negative energy).

There's also arcane damage resistance, on some equipment. It's not terribly common.

But for the most part, your best bet is to keep your HP very, very high.

Another thing to keep in mind is that the monsters have limited resources (Mana), and cooldowns on their talents, just like you do. A skeleton mage can't manathrust you two turns in a row, because it's on cooldown.

[edge2054]

Arcane Resistance is super rare and it's meant to be (arcane is basically 'pure magic' damage and super hard to resist) though your resist all should offer some protection.

The best defense versus skeleton mages....


Heightened Senses or some other means of Infravision or some form of Detect Enemies (like track).

[Final Master]

I really don't see the issue anymore. Sure, expect to lose some characters to the new player killers, such as the top 25 - even vets like myself will lose to skelly mages now and again still - but magic is dangerous - just like in most every single game.

[DragonMasterHawk]

There's a Premonition skill that you can learn from an escort quest, which gives you some magic resistance. There's also an entire antimagic talent tree that some classes can learn (not the classes that begin with Mana, Vim, Positive or Negative energy).

There's also arcane damage resistance, on some equipment. It's not terribly common.

But for the most part, your best bet is to keep your HP very, very high.

Another thing to keep in mind is that the monsters have limited resources (Mana), and cooldowns on their talents, just like you do. A skeleton mage can't manathrust you two turns in a row, because it's on cooldown.

I don't think I've seen the Premonition skill come up yet as a choice, but then, my saving rate of Escorts is...not high. I think I know where to get Antimagic, but I'll be way past Kor'pul by the time I can actually finish that quest (almost did it before, but was forced to use a Shielding Rune on the last guy or I would've died, failing the whole thing).

I guess I never mentioned it, but I'm playing a Cursed.

Arcane Resistance is super rare and it's meant to be (arcane is basically 'pure magic' damage and super hard to resist) though your resist all should offer some protection.

The best defense versus skeleton mages....


Heightened Senses or some other means of Infravision or some form of Detect Enemies (like track)

Yes and no. That is, it's great to detect monsters before you see them, but you still have to fight them at some point. They might be in the room with the exit. I supposed I could Recall out if that ever happened, re-RNG-ing that floor until it works, but that seems a bit...

I really don't see the issue anymore. Sure, expect to lose some characters to the new player killers, such as the top 25 - even vets like myself will lose to skelly mages now and again still - but magic is dangerous - just like in most every single game.

If you're going to make sweeping generalizations, then no, magic is not "dangerous" in most every single game to the same degree as it is in this game. Many games have a Magic Defense or Mind stat that mitigates magic damage. In my mind, it's poor design, because it's an interaction without counterplay. There's a lot of situations where you have to simply "hope" in the game, and I'm not necessarily against that. I hope my escort doesn't suici-oh, he's dead. I hope I can get to Zigur and back without procing the Bandit Lord event, because I want the Zigur quest at level 1, but I don't want to do the quest until later. I hope I get the Girdle of Calm Waters early on, because it's badass on Cursed.

"I hope I don't get instagibbed by magic," is less fun. I like the permadeath mechanic; it keeps me on my toes. I'm fine with, "Wow, I died because I did something dumb." That's cool; that's evolving me as a player. But when instead I think, "I...really couldn't have done anything differently, could I?", then I feel a bit underwhelmed as a player.

I've read the first few pages of these forums, and I've seen Darkgod say something a few times, that he wants the game to be easier in the beginning and harder at the end, and that he wants to get rid of stupid mechanics to draw in new players. In that mindset, we have infusions/runes over pots, we have infinite basic ammo for ranged types, and we have both the Rod of Recall and the Orb of Scrying after the first dungeon. Tome seems to have made it this far with the system it currently has, so I'm sure many people are attached to it. I'm not expecting him to change it, but I'd just like for my voice to be heard.

"I am a new player, and my complaint is that extremely limited Magic Resist options lead to seemingly uncounterable instadeath situations very early on in the game, which leave me angry, not with myself for making a poor choice, but with the game."

That's all.

[greycat]

I'm generally level 12 or 13 before going into Kor'Pul.

Seriously.

[darkgod]

DragonMasterHawk, I hear your complains, worry not

First, as others have said, the spells have cooldowns, you can not get double manathrusted by a single creature.
Then the way to mitigate magical damage is resistance, as you said, in most games it exists, and it does here too; in fact the wild infusion you start with provides exactly this effect which is very much enough to kill a skeleton mage; or even the shade (which I do not wait lvl 12 to enter; but to each his own that's why I made the zones scaling).

Now having said that I am inclined to believe skeleton mages at low level are a bit too powerful and could use a slight nerf

[Postman]

Don't nerf Skeleton Mages! They create a lot of tension, which is good. Because they are most dangerous at low level the death is not very painful, as investment into character is not very big. What I suggest instead - make their loot more rewarding and make some kind of indication of their pretense nearby. Signposts or paper pieces etc. May be they should be present only in locked rooms until well into K-P.

[Sirrocco]

- For Cursed, the best bet for dealing with ranged types is the classic cursed combo of detect power + blindside. It'll take you a few levels to get there, but it's quite effective. Also, maxxing out the appropriate generic skill and keeping your hate high will give you a fair bit of resist all, which helps.
- For the place you're thinking of, it's generally a good idea to replace your runes with infusions entirely by that point. Having another high-percentage wild infusion or a solid healing/regen infusion might have saved you without costing you the quest.

[teachu2die]

if there's one lesson one should learn playing any *band is that detection skills are probably the single most important character attribute. CON is the second.

i like that skeleton mages are so dangerous - maybe their frequency could simply be dropped a bit on the early kor pul levels.
(btw i also don't take kor pul on until after completing the old forest - by that time im usually level 11-13.)

[Sradac]

scaredy cats!

I always do kor'pul FIRST! It's easy imo, especially the shade. At least you know where he is. In trollshire, you never know when you will run into bill. He could be just on the other side of that tree, better hope you can phase door!

Best way to take out mages/shade? 150+ hitpoints should keep you from being 1 shoted from off screen. Once that manathrust hits, throw your defense up and take cover.

stuns, shielding runes, healing runes (I get rid of regen asap, healing ones heal for more, have about the same cooldown, and are instant) and waiting for them to come to you. and hitpoints. shade has significantly less HP than bill. Only thing to watch for is his tidal wave. Let him cast that, move around a corner, when he comes or it dissipates, rush him / nuke / whatever you got tidal wave has a long cool down.

[Sradac]

the only other thing i could suggest is maybe choose your targets by your class.

Melee seem to have an easier time against the shade, and ranged/magic have an easier time against bill. for me at least.

Summoners take an entirely different strategy, which I have yet to figure out

[Soron]

My mages actually have an easier time against the Shade, actually... then again, that's probably because I'm usually level 3 when I fight Bill, and have no good incapacitation moves.

As for summoners, a tactic I like is to send one summon to distract the enemies and soak up damage, while a second takes care of attacking.