Why not make them work for you... Cursed items can only be used by the afflicted and cursed classes?Wombat wrote:And please, just say NO to cursed items. Cursed items == dungeon litter.
Beta 15: runes/infusions, ammo, ID and encumbrance
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Re: Beta 15: runes/infusions, ammo, ID and encumbrance
Regards
Jon.
Jon.
Re: Beta 15: runes/infusions, ammo, ID and encumbrance
-- Ahoy, thar be text-wall off th'port bow! --
Or perhaps just themed around them. Chance of certain talents, mastery assistance, particular damage types, etc. Could toss in similar things for divine and arcane critters. Would either be an ego (probably blue level, whatever those are) or something akin to randarts. Mayhap have them be extra effective in the hands of the appropriate class and/or ineffective (but still useful! Just base ego instead of blue-ego level, ferex.) being used by thematically opposed classes.
Going more old-skool (read: older than computers) thematic, cursed items could have activate on kill abilities, stuff similar to the afflicted's Unnatural Body talent. Needing to slake the weapon regularly or receive penalties (or even more interestingly, the item becomes increasingly stronger as time passes, then weakens as it feeds), cause critters to hunt you down, be particularly ineffective versus certain creatures, there's all sorts of neat stuff that could be implemented above and beyond that.
--Semi-rant--
Re: Tradional *band cursed items: T4 really doesn't have the item generation design going down to support that sort of thing being anything but an annoyance -- which is precisely what it is in vanilla Angband and pretty much all of its variants (Possibly except in Portralis and some of the more recent stuff I've not gotten around to playing). It doesn't really add anything meaningful to the game and tosses on an added, useless, degree of tedium.
Some of the non-*band roguelikes have done at least semi-interesting things with them. As some examples, Crawl and Incursion both have a much more limited amount of items (i.e. aren't particularly scummable) and different ID games going on, making cursed items more meaningful. BRogue plays on a similar concept, though its focus on items makes even cursed ones potentially vital. Portralis has "cursed" items being incredibly high-end equipment that jacks up the generation rate the absolute top-tier monsters in the game -- iirc, though, by this point Portralis has completely abolished ID.
The thing to take away from those examples is that the *band method of item cursing is basically a very poor design choice -- it adds tedium but little to no risk and little to no meaningful choice. Most RLs (that I've played, obviously) that have interesting curse mechanics either drastically reduce the amount/increase the value of loot or make cursing a trade-off instead of a flat penalty/irritant. If cursed stick-to-me items are going to be implemented, something meaningful and interesting needs to be done with them, not just 'hurrhurr-you-have-to-go-back-to-town-and-waste-money'.
Unless there's someone in town that does something interesting with cursed items for you (Ala Dragon Quest small medals, perhaps.). That might be neat.
Re: Identification: The Orb is one of the best things to happen in a *band influenced game since Portralis got rid of identification entirely. The ID game in 90% of *band variants is pretty much exactly like its cursing game -- meaningless tedium that doesn't add anything but a larger turn count. The Orb, at least, adds something interesting to the ID game (a small, thematic, cost to get rid of the bloody thing.) without making -- or at least rewarding -- the player tote a 99 stack of ID scrolls or mindlessly drink/blast/read random junk.
My random idea there: Let the Orb auto-ID be togglable and have someone in a town buy un-ID'd items for higher-than-base price, without telling you how much they'll pay for it beforehand. Possibly let the same critter sell un-ID'd items at a flat rate (1.1-2x base, probably, whatever ends up averaging to be just-slightly less expensive than buying an equal-gold amount from the regular shops) as well. Diablo and many of its various decedents pulled the latter trick, and it's always been a pretty decent way to create a gold sink.
Or perhaps just themed around them. Chance of certain talents, mastery assistance, particular damage types, etc. Could toss in similar things for divine and arcane critters. Would either be an ego (probably blue level, whatever those are) or something akin to randarts. Mayhap have them be extra effective in the hands of the appropriate class and/or ineffective (but still useful! Just base ego instead of blue-ego level, ferex.) being used by thematically opposed classes.
Going more old-skool (read: older than computers) thematic, cursed items could have activate on kill abilities, stuff similar to the afflicted's Unnatural Body talent. Needing to slake the weapon regularly or receive penalties (or even more interestingly, the item becomes increasingly stronger as time passes, then weakens as it feeds), cause critters to hunt you down, be particularly ineffective versus certain creatures, there's all sorts of neat stuff that could be implemented above and beyond that.
--Semi-rant--
Re: Tradional *band cursed items: T4 really doesn't have the item generation design going down to support that sort of thing being anything but an annoyance -- which is precisely what it is in vanilla Angband and pretty much all of its variants (Possibly except in Portralis and some of the more recent stuff I've not gotten around to playing). It doesn't really add anything meaningful to the game and tosses on an added, useless, degree of tedium.
Some of the non-*band roguelikes have done at least semi-interesting things with them. As some examples, Crawl and Incursion both have a much more limited amount of items (i.e. aren't particularly scummable) and different ID games going on, making cursed items more meaningful. BRogue plays on a similar concept, though its focus on items makes even cursed ones potentially vital. Portralis has "cursed" items being incredibly high-end equipment that jacks up the generation rate the absolute top-tier monsters in the game -- iirc, though, by this point Portralis has completely abolished ID.
The thing to take away from those examples is that the *band method of item cursing is basically a very poor design choice -- it adds tedium but little to no risk and little to no meaningful choice. Most RLs (that I've played, obviously) that have interesting curse mechanics either drastically reduce the amount/increase the value of loot or make cursing a trade-off instead of a flat penalty/irritant. If cursed stick-to-me items are going to be implemented, something meaningful and interesting needs to be done with them, not just 'hurrhurr-you-have-to-go-back-to-town-and-waste-money'.
Unless there's someone in town that does something interesting with cursed items for you (Ala Dragon Quest small medals, perhaps.). That might be neat.
Re: Identification: The Orb is one of the best things to happen in a *band influenced game since Portralis got rid of identification entirely. The ID game in 90% of *band variants is pretty much exactly like its cursing game -- meaningless tedium that doesn't add anything but a larger turn count. The Orb, at least, adds something interesting to the ID game (a small, thematic, cost to get rid of the bloody thing.) without making -- or at least rewarding -- the player tote a 99 stack of ID scrolls or mindlessly drink/blast/read random junk.
My random idea there: Let the Orb auto-ID be togglable and have someone in a town buy un-ID'd items for higher-than-base price, without telling you how much they'll pay for it beforehand. Possibly let the same critter sell un-ID'd items at a flat rate (1.1-2x base, probably, whatever ends up averaging to be just-slightly less expensive than buying an equal-gold amount from the regular shops) as well. Diablo and many of its various decedents pulled the latter trick, and it's always been a pretty decent way to create a gold sink.
Re: Beta 15: runes/infusions, ammo, ID and encumbrance
I'm not opposed to items or artifacts designed specifically for the cursed class. That actually has the potential to be pretty cool. I'm opposed to the cursed items in the same vein as *band variants, which amount to undesirable objects that are littered across every dungeon. I'm glad that the whole blessed/normal/cursed thing has been left behind.
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teachu2die
- Wyrmic
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Re: Beta 15: runes/infusions, ammo, ID and encumbrance
on the topic of cursed items:
my fav implementation of cursed items in a roguelike has been in FAangband.
curses are sometimes 'hidden' on artifacts, powerful egos, and jewelry, and can do a variety of things - from the traditional sticky curse, to random paralyzation, demon summoning, teleportation, etc. you can discover the curses normally through use, but also through relatively rare scrolls of reveal curse. you can attempt to remove a curse using scrolls of remove curse, but they have a chance of destroying the item. so you might find a piece of ring that boosts your confusion resistance 100% and gives +4 to strength and speed, but it might paralyze you, and has a chance of summoning undead. do you risk reading several scrolls of remove curse in an attempt to make it totally usable? do you carry it around as a swap? or do you sell it for the large gold its worth?
i think something along these lines could have a place in TE4...
and maybe cursed classes could be immune to the ill-effects of cursed items...
my fav implementation of cursed items in a roguelike has been in FAangband.
curses are sometimes 'hidden' on artifacts, powerful egos, and jewelry, and can do a variety of things - from the traditional sticky curse, to random paralyzation, demon summoning, teleportation, etc. you can discover the curses normally through use, but also through relatively rare scrolls of reveal curse. you can attempt to remove a curse using scrolls of remove curse, but they have a chance of destroying the item. so you might find a piece of ring that boosts your confusion resistance 100% and gives +4 to strength and speed, but it might paralyze you, and has a chance of summoning undead. do you risk reading several scrolls of remove curse in an attempt to make it totally usable? do you carry it around as a swap? or do you sell it for the large gold its worth?
i think something along these lines could have a place in TE4...
and maybe cursed classes could be immune to the ill-effects of cursed items...
Re: Beta 15: runes/infusions, ammo, ID and encumbrance
I'm going to have to disagree with Frumple for a moment. Cursed items in *bands* that have easy universal access to ID and/or strong psuedo-ID are indeed pretty worthless. On the other hand, cursed items in games where ID is limited and ID-by-using is a viable option do actually make things more interesting - do you drink the potion to find out what it is, or hang on to it and have it clutter up your inventory until you can get it home to sell?
That having been said, TOME is currently a *very* easy-ID system, and I'm not seeing how changing that is likely to be of benefit. As such, adding "it sucks to be you"-style cursed items is pretty much a lose plan. Additionally, items in general are pretty easily available, limiting the value of "it almost sucks to be you, but it could be useful in rare circumstances" items.
I think it might be kind of cool to have randarts with hidden attributes though - specifically where you activate the orb, and the friendly seer lady basically says "well, here's what I know about it, but there's other stuff I couldn't figure out. Fascinating." At that point, you could either sell the thing for money, go to some trouble to have it fully identified (perhaps some random subquest around the seer lady, or perhaps a fair amount of money or whatever) or wear it. The "other stuff" could be good or bad, but should be strange and interesting (nifty activatable/sustainable/passive powers from other classes, strange curses, major boosts and penalties to various things at the same time or that sort of thing. Perhaps the armor gives you +25 defense, but has a -80% resist blight. Stuff like that.) If you try the "wear it" technique, you get to figure out how it works after you earn enough exp with the thing on. That way, people who don't want to worry about cursed items just sell the things. People who like the idea of playing around with it might get something cool - or might die horribly. You could also be cautious and get it fully identified before wearing, but the cost for doing so would be not entirely trivial.
That having been said, TOME is currently a *very* easy-ID system, and I'm not seeing how changing that is likely to be of benefit. As such, adding "it sucks to be you"-style cursed items is pretty much a lose plan. Additionally, items in general are pretty easily available, limiting the value of "it almost sucks to be you, but it could be useful in rare circumstances" items.
I think it might be kind of cool to have randarts with hidden attributes though - specifically where you activate the orb, and the friendly seer lady basically says "well, here's what I know about it, but there's other stuff I couldn't figure out. Fascinating." At that point, you could either sell the thing for money, go to some trouble to have it fully identified (perhaps some random subquest around the seer lady, or perhaps a fair amount of money or whatever) or wear it. The "other stuff" could be good or bad, but should be strange and interesting (nifty activatable/sustainable/passive powers from other classes, strange curses, major boosts and penalties to various things at the same time or that sort of thing. Perhaps the armor gives you +25 defense, but has a -80% resist blight. Stuff like that.) If you try the "wear it" technique, you get to figure out how it works after you earn enough exp with the thing on. That way, people who don't want to worry about cursed items just sell the things. People who like the idea of playing around with it might get something cool - or might die horribly. You could also be cautious and get it fully identified before wearing, but the cost for doing so would be not entirely trivial.
Re: Beta 15: runes/infusions, ammo, ID and encumbrance
You're not actually disagreeing with me there 
Crawl and Incursion, which I mentioned, does exactly what you're speaking of in that first bit. Probably could have expanded on the ID game thing a bit, but it was tangential to the main thrust I was going for.
The partial ID idea might be interesting, but most of it'd have to be limited to stuff that doesn't show up in the character screen, I'd think. Unless that thing where you can see adjustments to resistances, etc, when you wear un-id'd items changes. Otherwise, stuff like -80% blight resistance would be trivial to discover, removing the point of having it hidden in the first place.
Still plenty of room for activatable stuff and odd talent-like abilities with a downside or whathaveyou. UnAngband, I think, does partial ID for some things, maybe a few other RLs. Elona does it for higher end stuff, sometimes, iirc. Checking out previous implementation often helps
Crawl and Incursion, which I mentioned, does exactly what you're speaking of in that first bit. Probably could have expanded on the ID game thing a bit, but it was tangential to the main thrust I was going for.
The partial ID idea might be interesting, but most of it'd have to be limited to stuff that doesn't show up in the character screen, I'd think. Unless that thing where you can see adjustments to resistances, etc, when you wear un-id'd items changes. Otherwise, stuff like -80% blight resistance would be trivial to discover, removing the point of having it hidden in the first place.
Still plenty of room for activatable stuff and odd talent-like abilities with a downside or whathaveyou. UnAngband, I think, does partial ID for some things, maybe a few other RLs. Elona does it for higher end stuff, sometimes, iirc. Checking out previous implementation often helps
Re: Beta 15: runes/infusions, ammo, ID and encumbrance
I am in the middle when it comes to the Infusions/Runes and Potion/Scrolls.
Although I loved the unidentified potions/scrolls that you would find and begin to update your item knowledge I am a fan of the new infusion/runes as I feel it adds more strategy.
Yes at early levels the new change has granted an easier start to the game and for those that are able to get into the mage city early, the chance to purchase some dominated runes (shield rune for 400+ damage) can be overly effective. As the game progresses however I really like the strategy and gameplan required to make sure your character is fit with everything it needs. I often will roll a Cornac to get that extra slot purely for another rune.
I felt the biggest draw to potions and scrolls was the unknown! I loved delving deeper into a dungeon and finding some aqua tealish bubbly potion that I would quaff and either gain 1 Constitution or be cursed with a terrible affliction! The randomness and excitement that the old system brought cannot be denied.
The downside to the old system was that most roguelikes became an inventory management game with your attention focused on how much you could hold for the next battle rather than your skills and abilities! (Granted there was not much in the way of skills and abilities back then)...but with the new additions of talents and abilities I feel that Infusions and Runes work to their strengths.
I am happy with the change and in a perfect world I would somehow want both systems integrated into the game...but that is foolish thinking.
Although I loved the unidentified potions/scrolls that you would find and begin to update your item knowledge I am a fan of the new infusion/runes as I feel it adds more strategy.
Yes at early levels the new change has granted an easier start to the game and for those that are able to get into the mage city early, the chance to purchase some dominated runes (shield rune for 400+ damage) can be overly effective. As the game progresses however I really like the strategy and gameplan required to make sure your character is fit with everything it needs. I often will roll a Cornac to get that extra slot purely for another rune.
I felt the biggest draw to potions and scrolls was the unknown! I loved delving deeper into a dungeon and finding some aqua tealish bubbly potion that I would quaff and either gain 1 Constitution or be cursed with a terrible affliction! The randomness and excitement that the old system brought cannot be denied.
The downside to the old system was that most roguelikes became an inventory management game with your attention focused on how much you could hold for the next battle rather than your skills and abilities! (Granted there was not much in the way of skills and abilities back then)...but with the new additions of talents and abilities I feel that Infusions and Runes work to their strengths.
I am happy with the change and in a perfect world I would somehow want both systems integrated into the game...but that is foolish thinking.
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ushumgal
- Higher
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Re: Beta 15: runes/infusions, ammo, ID and encumbrance
Having played beta 15 some more, I've got to say I am still no fan of runes/infusions, but it sounds like I am very much outnumbered on that point, so I guess I'll just have to make my own module some day... 
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Final Master
- Sher'Tul
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Re: Beta 15: runes/infusions, ammo, ID and encumbrance
I agree, and am already doing so.ushumgal wrote:Having played beta 15 some more, I've got to say I am still no fan of runes/infusions, but it sounds like I am very much outnumbered on that point, so I guess I'll just have to make my own module some day... :D
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Re: Beta 15: runes/infusions, ammo, ID and encumbrance
I quite like them - they're very refreshing. I especially like the fact that I'm not resting around with any of my characters any more, and can keep on the move. I think there's a fair few tweaks to be done, but it's a nice system overall.