Gwai wrote:Grey, that is probably the innate difference between you and I then. I always enjoy inventory management and the preparation for the fights. Fights are only somewhat strategy. Preparation is all strategy.
Preparation only works if spoiled :P With random content you especially can't always rely on preparation.
Also I enjoy the current preparation with the talent system - it's very elegantly done. I worry some of the rune ideas are too fiddly in comparison. There's a line where inventory management becomes a chore rather than fun.
1) They clutter up your inventory
2) The idea of using them in battle is ridiculous
3) They are practically free, especially late in the game, and there's effectively no limit to how many you can carry.
4) They are too potent, and overshadow the player's actual abilities.
I like the ideas you have put up, and the conversation and discussion has been very interesting to read.
I thought I would just point out the obvious... And it does need pointing out!
1) They clutter up your inventory
I would suggest you make them a lot rarer - to the point that the RNG would not just have been smiling but positively beaming on you for you to get 10 full potions of healing/mana in the late game
2) The idea of using them in battle is ridiculous
I agree... and as has been pointed out making it a 2 (or more) turn action makes it more sense.
3) They are practically free, especially late in the game, and there's effectively no limit to how many you can carry.
You have two points here...
If they are rarer the price will go up! I agree this is hard to handle...
As for the weight consideration make them encumbrance 1 Why? Each scroll and potion has to come in a special container so that it can hold the magic ingredients or vellum... This will have the effect of limiting what you can carry.
4) They are too potent, and overshadow the player's actual abilities.
This will always be a problem! Consider this though...
Any roguelike has one characteristic that I enjoy - make a mistake and you are toast! So this, in my opinion, goes some way to giving the player an edge.
My recent challenge demonstrated my point, players were dying all over the place. With no access to shops a major piece was taken away from players - access to a good supply of potions & scrolls.
If you go the way you have suggested please make sure that the dungeons are not littered with dead bodies.
madmonk wrote:My recent challenge demonstrated my point, players were dying all over the place. With no access to shops a major piece was taken away from players - access to a good supply of potions & scrolls.
Really? It took me maybe 1 or 2 deaths to get to the end... not that I ever beat it (due to the game not responding every time during the boss battle), I guess trying again wouldn't hurt though.
madmonk wrote:My recent challenge demonstrated my point, players were dying all over the place. With no access to shops a major piece was taken away from players - access to a good supply of potions & scrolls.
Really? It took me maybe 1 or 2 deaths to get to the end... not that I ever beat it (due to the game not responding every time during the boss battle), I guess trying again wouldn't hurt though.
If you go the way you have suggested please make sure that the dungeons are not littered with dead bodies.
This is part of the problem--some players seem to like it this way
I don't mind it that the majority of characters that I create don't reach endgame. Of the 50 or so I've made, only 2 have made it to endgame, several others are in the inventory-gathering mode, and others are moldering piles of bones in various dungeons/caverns/fields.
There's no question that a potion of full healing is one of the best "ohshit" buttons currently in existence, and I strongly believe such things should always exist. Powerful, yes, but IMHO very warranted given the many fatal situations one can find oneself in. If anyone has any doubt, try getting a character to the endgame and give it a shot (hint: it hurts. A LOT ) I definitely wouldn't be opposed to making excellent emergency items rarer though, as I do enjoy farming for good items.
Darkgod's implementation of this idea involves runes and infusions. Runes more or less replace effects currently granted by scrolls, and infusions do the same for potions. Infusions are perfectly natural, and thus allowed by anti-magic characters. Runes are not. Otherwise the implementation is quite close to what I described originally. Let's clarify the terminology a bit. Runes and infusions are actual physical objects you find in the dungeon. Using a rune on yourself inscribes the rune on your skin. Using an infusion on yourself sticks it to your skin.
A potential problem is that the infusions and runes that grant these abilities do not stack, since each randomly generates its stats. This will very quickly lead to far more inventory clutter than we have now. Another potential problem is this: with only three slots for runes/infusions, getting runes and infusions that do exactly what you want them to is quite important, and yet there are so many possible combinations that this is very difficult.
My favorite solution is similar to what I proposed earlier with rune combination. I've updated it to have different mechanics for runes and very different mechanics for infusions, as well as less randomness all around.
I'll do infusions first. I'm not sure what exactly an infusion is, but it's some sort of collection of herbs and/or chemicals. You can mash them together, or mix them in a bottle, or whatever is thematically appropriate. Combining two infusions makes an infusion with both effects. This would essentially double the power of infusions, so they'd need to be toned down. You can't get more than two effects. Combining two of the same infusion makes it a double. A double healing infusion obviously heals more than a healing infusion. You can't get better than a double.
Combining infusions that are already doubles or have two different effects simply rerolls the stats. Ego is randomly chosen from the egos of the combined infusions. If only one ego is involved, that ego is guaranteed. Let's look at some examples.
X infusion + Y infusion = XY infusion
X infusion + X infusion = XX infusion
XY infusion + X infusion = XY infusion with X stats rerolled
XY infusion + Y infusion = XY infusion with Y stats rerolled
XY infusion + XY infusion = XY infusion with X and Y stats rerolled
XX infusion + XX infusion = XX infusion with X stats rerolled
XX infusion + Y infusion = XY infusion
XX infusion + YY infusion = XY infusion
XX infusion + XY infusion = XY infusion with X stats rerolled
Ugh, that looks way more complicated than it really is. Basically, these can be summed up like this: If there's only one type of infusion involved in a combination, the result will be a double of that type. If there's multiple types (X + Y, XX + XY, whatever, some Xs and some Ys), then the result will be an XY.
All infusions have only suffix egos. Ego infusion works simply: If there are no egos in a combination, the result will have no ego. If only one infusion from a combination has an ego, then that ego will be on the combination. If each infusion has an ego, one of them is picked randomly.
If people hate the randomness, then we could make combining infusions have a particular order. Like 'Apply X infusion to Y infusion.' The only reason to do this is so we can make a rule like 'If there's two egos, the ego from the first infusion is used.' Personally, I'm fine with a little gambling on these combinations.
Okay, now for combining runes. Runes can have two egos, a prefix and a suffix, so there's a little more variability there. On the other hand, combining two runes doesn't do it additively like combining infusions does.
Using a rune on yourself inscribes the contents of the rune on your body, granting you magical abilities. Using a rune on another rune works similarly; using X runel on Y rune inscribes the contents of X on Y... or some of them. If it was a complete overwrite we'd have to ask ourselves what the point was. So what gets inscribed and what doesn't? Using X on Y always inscribes the effect of X on Y, overwriting Y's effect, but Y's egos never get overwritten. This means that if you have a rune Y with an effect you don't care about but an ego you want, and a rune X with an effect you want but an ego you don't want, you use X on Y and produce a rune with the effect you want with the ego you want.
If X has a suffix ego and Y doesn't have a suffix ego, using X on Y will overwrite Y's effect with X's as well as applying X's ego. The only rule about egos is that Y's egos are never overwritten. If they don't exist in the first place, there's room for X's egos.
To summarize simply: Using X on Y tries to overwrite Y with X, but egos cannot be overwritten.
Where's the randomness in all this, you ask? Every time you combine runes, the stats of the resulting rune are rerolled based on your level. Thus even combining two egoless identical rune has a use.
I'll avoid the long list of algebraic-looking examples. Too many of those in one post makes people cringe. So here are some more concrete examples in which we're applying the first rune to the second:
brawler's teleportation rune + psychic's speed rune of absorption = psychic's teleportation rune of absorption
Let's change the order of that last one:
psychic's speed rune of absorption + brawler's teleportation rune = brawler's speed rune of absorption
brawler's teleportation rune + speed rune of absorption = brawler's teleportation rune of absorption
teleportation rune + psychic's speed rune of absorption = psychic's teleportation rune of absorption
All these mechanics are designed with this goal in mind: all infusions and runes are useful, even if they're ones you don't want. With some practice, players can learn to build the exact rune and infusion they want out of runes and infusions they don't want. There are limitations, of course. If you want a brawler's teleportation rune of absorption, you're going to need to find at least one teleportation rune, at least one rune with the "brawler's" ego, and at least one with the "of absorption" ego. But that shouldn't be too hard. Even if you've already built what you want, you can combine it with a crappy egoless rune to simply reroll the stats. Thus ALL rune are useful for all characters, and using them destroys them, so we never accumulate a huge pile of runes.
Note that all this talk of combining is only for stuff in your bag. Applying an infusion or rune to yourself doesn't combine it with what you've already got stuck to your body; that's a simple overwrite. So you build what you want in your bag first, then apply it to your skin. At that point it's fixed, and all you can do to change it is overwrite it completely.
- Rerolling based on your level makes it entirely too easy to scum low-level dungeons, acquire a huge stack of them, and then reroll them to the player's level - particularly if you can be cramming in egos while you do.
- You say "getting runes and infusions that do exactly what you want them to is quite important" - but that's not true, unless you have some sort of deeply integrated skill-and-infusion strategy. It's important to get runes/infusions that will take care of your needs (whatever they may happen to be) but they're like gear now. If you have an infusion that cures poison/disease and a stun-resist armor, you're in about the same place as if you have a free action infusion and a poison/blight resistant armor - and grinding for infusions won't really be all that different from grinding for gear.
- As far as inventory clutter goes, there they also act a lot more like equipment than like potions/scrolls. They don't stack, but you'll also never carry them *in* to the dungeon - and if you find one that you don't want to wear and don't care to sell, you can easily just leave it behind.
I'd much rather the interesting tactical challenge of "hey - I suddenly got this amazing rune that does this interesting thing. How do take advantage of that?" than the grind-and-build challenge of "I've figured out exactly which runes I want, and I'm going to keep going until I get them." If anything, the "mix runes/infusions" bit is going to make for more of an inventory hassle, rather than less, as people accumulate and hang on to random runes that they want for the prefix/suffix/base rather than just applying them or selling them off as they get them.
I was about to post all the same points, but Sirrocco read my mind in advance!
I'd like to suggest some ideas for developing the system, but I don't actually know how it's currently working. How is the new system currently implemented in terms of recharge/cooldown? How many types do we have? Are they just replicates of potions/scrolls? What sort of egos do they have, if any? How frequent are they? What do people think trying them out so far?
Why? Each scroll and potion has to come in a special container so that it can hold the magic ingredients or vellum... This will have the effect of limiting what you can carry.
It took me maybe 1 or 2 deaths to get to the end... not that I ever beat it (due to the game not responding every time during the boss battle), I guess trying again wouldn't hurt though.
) I definitely wouldn't be opposed to making excellent emergency items rarer though, as I do enjoy farming for good items.