Stun resistance

[teachu2die]

hmmm....edge's suggestion is sounding very interesting....you could completely cripple an opponent who's tactics depended highly on mana or stamina....but yeah, it wouldn't be nearly as useful against normal mobs, particularly things like bears or snakes...
maybe this could be coupled with a 'knock out' status when stun reached 100%? that way rogue's could still utilize stun in a manner similar to the one currently implemented....

[Mithril]

And nerfs very hard clases that uses stuns, because a hard hitting npc without many talents would be nearly unaffected

However the hard hitting creatures with talents wouldn't have to have stun immune set to 1 and honestly those are the ones I worry about myself, not the ones that don't use talents.

Rogues and fighters certainly worry about, for example, Bill who would be unaffected if stunned with this proposal.

The system is quite unclear. "doing anything other then using base attacks or moving is going to exhaust you very quickly." How quickly? What does this mean? You get a Stamina of 0? Mana of 0? How does your "stun fatigue" points affect this?

I fail to see how it adds any more strategic choices than the choices available if having reduced speed where you can also use potions and so on. Sus's idea is also not binary and can be stackable if one prefers that by speed reductions stacking. So I do not see how it improves Sus's system and is worse in several aspects.

[teachu2die]

fatigue increases the rate at which one consumes stamina/mana (and in this case, presumably equilibrium, positive energy, etc) so using phase door might cost you 2 times (or three or more depending on how things were to scale) the mana cost. that way, a heavily stunned enemy might burn through all of their resources quickly, and be crippled for the rest of the fight.
it's an improvement on sus's system in that its a wholly new and interesting game mechanism.

edit: this could be particularly good if it was combined with 100% stun = 'knocked out'. that way rogues and the like could still use stun as normal against enemies with no stun resistance. it would make *some* degree of stun resistance absolutely essential for the player, but 100% wouldn't be necessary at all (making stun resistance a very similar mechanism to fire, acid, etc resistance.). and it would nerf chain stunning against bosses, while still making it a very viable strategy (keep them stunned to deplete their resources)....

[Mithril]

fatigue increases the rate at which one consumes stamina/mana (and in this case, presumably equilibrium, positive energy, etc) so using phase door might cost you 2 times (or three or more depending on how things were to scale) the mana cost. that way, a heavily stunned enemy might burn through all of their resources quickly, and be crippled for the rest of the fight.
it's an improvement on sus's system in that its a wholly new and interesting game mechanism.

That is just a very vague outline. The exact implementation is very unclear. It seems that, even with no stun resistance, monsters, like Bill, will still be able to attack even if stunned so this will greatly nerf stun and classes depending on stun attacks.

[teachu2die]

That is just a very vague outline. The exact implementation is very unclear. It seems that, even with no stun resistance, monsters, like Bill, will still be able to attack even if stunned so this will greatly nerf stun and classes depending on stun attacks.

read my above edit on the previous comment, if combined with 100% stun = knocked out (and normal stun attacks do 100% stun), then it works just as implemented currently, but more interestingly in the case of players/monsters with stun resistance.

and outlines like this have to be fairly vague until fully thought out and play tested a bit.

[Mithril]

fatigue increases the rate at which one consumes stamina/mana (and in this case, presumably equilibrium, positive energy, etc) so using phase door might cost you 2 times (or three or more depending on how things were to scale) the mana cost. that way, a heavily stunned enemy might burn through all of their resources quickly, and be crippled for the rest of the fight.
it's an improvement on sus's system in that its a wholly new and interesting game mechanism.

That is just a very vague outline. The exact implementation is very unclear. It seems that, even with no stun resistance, monsters, like Bill, will still be able to attack even if stunned so this will greatly nerf stun and classes depending on stun attacks.

read my above edit on the previous comment, if combined with 100% stun = knocked out (and normal stun attacks do 100% stun), then it works just as implemented currently, but more interestingly in the case of players/monsters with stun resistance.
outlines like this have to be fairly vague until fully thought out and play tested.

The system is still very, very unclear. I fail to see what advantage it have over Sus's system which is exactly defined and very simple:

100 % - stun resistance % = speed penalty %
100 % speed penalty = knockout

Only thing left to decide is if additional stun attacks stack the speed penalty or not.

[Gwai]

I still think this would be a serious nerf to rogue-types either way (not talking about fighters, because I don't play them much). For instance, Roguey is about to fight a rattlesnake. or a skeleton fighter He is nervous about it, so he stuns it. Let's say it only has a 10% resist to stun, so his hit leaves it 90% fatigued. The rattlesnake still can bite and poison him, if I understand correctly and the skeleton can still bop the heck out of him. Either way he dies. What should he have done differently? Let's presume he can not yet flurry since we need rogue classes to be playable pre-level four too.

[Mithril]

I still think this would be a serious nerf to rogue-types either way (not talking about fighters, because I don't play them much). For instance, Roguey is about to fight a rattlesnake. or a skeleton fighter He is nervous about it, so he stuns it. Let's say it only has a 10% resist to stun, so his hit leaves it 90% fatigued. The rattlesnake still can bite and poison him, if I understand correctly and the skeleton can still bop the heck out of him. Either way he dies. What should he have done differently? Let's presume he can not yet flurry since we need rogue classes to be playable pre-level four too.

With Sus's system the snake would get a 90% speed penalty and can be safely attacked by moving back a step once every ten turns.

[edge2054]

Mithril.. how far have you gotten in the game? Because past the first few bosses I see a lot of bosses that are IMMUNE TO STUN. The reason for this is because stun immunity is just as important for important npcs to survive as it is for players. It's an arms race in which the only way to win is to hit 100% stun immunity. Bosses do it with a flag, players do it with gear/talents.

I'm proposing a system that doesn't require bosses to be immune to stun effects in order to survive. This means that flag can be removed and the classes that you so aptly say rely on stun (which I don't know how they could honestly given how much crap is immune to stun to begin with) actually can see their stuns do something.

As to fatigue I don't think I was vague at all.

If you're stunned the cost of all your abilities is increased by 100%. If you're stunned again the cost is increased by 200%.

I like teach's idea though of coupling this with some sort of knockout. Or perhaps stun could have an additional effect.

Something like...

100% stun
All abilities cost double to use
Defense Halved
Damage Halved

200% stun
All abilities cost triple
Defense Halved again (so 1/4)
Damage Halved again (again 1/4)

And so on and so fourth.

[teachu2die]

mithril - eh? so an idea is only valid if it is presented immediately with fully formed mathematical formulas??
really, what im suggesting is not all that far removed from sus's idea (that stun resistance works in a non-binary fashion) - it's simply replacing the speed penalty (something which already exists in the game and is kind of boring) with edge's idea - a resource draining mechanism (something new and tactically interesting). the specifics would have to be ironed out, and enemies' stun resistances would have to be adjusted, and possibly stun duration and talent cooldown lengths, but that is going to be the case no matter what solution is applied.

gwai - normal mobs like rattlesnakes would be unlikely to have any stun resistance. so it would work essentially as it does now.

[Mithril]

Mithril.. how far have you gotten in the game? Because past the first few bosses I see a lot of bosses that are IMMUNE TO STUN. The reason for this is because stun immunity is just as important for important npcs to survive as it is for players. It's an arms race in which the only way to win is to hit 100% stun immunity. Bosses do it with a flag, players do it with gear/talents.

I'm proposing a system that doesn't require bosses to be immune to stun effects in order to survive. This means that flag can be removed and the classes that you so aptly say rely on stun (which I don't know how they could honestly given how much crap is immune to stun to begin with) actually can see their stuns do something.

As to fatigue I don't think I was vague at all.

If you're stunned the cost of all your abilities is increased by 100%. If you're stunned again the cost is increased by 200%.

I like teach's idea though of coupling this with some sort of knockout. Or perhaps stun could have an additional effect.

Something like...

100% stun
All abilities cost double to use
Defense Halved
Damage Halved

200% stun
All abilities cost triple
Defense Halved again (so 1/4)
Damage Halved again (again 1/4)

And so on and so fourth.

Sus's system prevent instant death for both players and monsters and thus allows removing the 100% stun immunities. This is in fact why I initially changed my mind to preferring such as system to making 100% stun immunities easily available as I stated some pages past. So, yes, I am aware of what you are stating.

I fail to see what advantage the above system has over Sus's system.

Your system is still unclear even if at last your now starting to throw out some concrete numbers. But how does the the "stun fatigue" points regenerate? Is there a knockout or not? Is damage and defense affected if you are only 50% stunned?

Exactly what is the advantage over Sus's system?

[edge2054]

It's not 'slow'.

And as to how it regenerates I wasn't suggesting we overhaul everything. Merely change the definition of what stun is and what stun resist is.

If you're hit with a 6 turn stun you're at 100% for the duration of that stun. If you're hit with another 3 turn stun you're at 200% for three turns (they stack) and 100% for the last three turns.

As to 'finally' throwing out concrete numbers my numbers where concrete to begin with, you just didn't bother to read my post or don't know what fatigue does. Teach and Darkgod both understood exactly how it was proposed to work.

The rest was an addition thanks to teach's idea.

[Mithril]

mithril - eh? so an idea is only valid if it is presented immediately with fully formed mathematical formulas??
really, what im suggesting is not all that far removed from sus's idea (that stun resistance works in a non-binary fashion) - it's simply replacing the speed penalty (something which already exists in the game and is kind of boring) with edge's idea - a resource draining mechanism (something new and tactically interesting). the specifics would have to be ironed out, and enemies' stun resistances would have to be adjusted, and possibly stun duration and talent cooldown lengths, but that is going to be the case no matter what solution is applied.

gwai - normal mobs like rattlesnakes would be unlikely to have any stun resistance. so it would work essentially as it does now.

No, but such a vague idea is certainly less clear and more difficult to discuss, evaluate, or implement than an exact idea.

I do not see why one have to make changes to anything else in order to fix game balance with Sus's idea. Why exactly?

Again, the only objection to Sus's idea is "It is so similar to slow" and that we must have something new. Not that the system would not work or has any flaws.

[Mithril]

It's not 'slow'.

And as to how it regenerates I wasn't suggesting we overhaul everything. Merely change the definition of what stun is and what stun resist is.

If you're hit with a 6 turn stun you're at 100% for the duration of that stun. If you're hit with another 3 turn stun you're at 200% for three turns (they stack) and 100% for the last three turns.

As to 'finally' throwing out concrete numbers my numbers where concrete to begin with, you just didn't bother to read my post or don't know what fatigue does. Teach and Darkgod both understood exactly how it was proposed to work.

The rest was an addition thanks to teach's idea.

What is the problem with using the existing speed system? Except that it is not brand new. It is not like attacks decreasing speed are extremely common currently.

Are you currently proposing a knockout or not? Seems you are not now? Is damage and defense affected if you are only 50% stunned? How much? Is damage from non-physical attacks also reduced?

Regardless, it seems that this still nerfs stun as compared to currently for the stun dependent classes. Bill will have his damage reduced by half if stunned with an ordinary stunning attack which is much better for him than being knocked out completely and worse for the stun dependent classes.

[teachu2die]

No, but such a vague idea is certainly less clear and more difficult to discuss, evaluate, or implement than an exact idea.

I do not see why one have to make changes to anything else in order to fix game balance with Sus's idea. Why exactly?

Again, the only objection to Sus's idea is "It is so similar to stun" and that we must have something new. Not that the system would not work or has any flaws.

sus's idea would still have to be extensively playtested, and the individual stun resistances of dozens of NPCs would have to be carefully adjusted. talents and stun duration may have to be adjusted as well. ANY change to a game mechanism as integral as stun is going to have far-reaching effects. and stun was obviously not perfect to begin with. so while sus's system fixes some of the biggest problems with stun, it doesn't ADD anything, either - in fact, it just duplicates an important mechanism already in the game - ultimately reducing overall tactical diversity.
i also think an enemy slowed by 30% for 3-5 turns (ie they lose one turn) is a lot less interesting than an enemy who is exhausting their resources. the resource drain is possibly a lot more beneficial to stun users, too, while not being overpowered. as long as a 'knocked out' state is still achievable against most mobs in one stun, i think this could be a great solution.

and flavor-wise, i also think it's a little more in keeping with the concept of what 'stun' should be - you don't do necessarily things more slowly, but do them more poorly, haphazardly, exhaustingly, until you can't really execute any fancy moves (and eventually you're knocked out).

my only objection to this system is that it might penalize stamina and mana users more than equilibrium and positive/negative energy uses (particularly stamina users, who don't usually have a quick way to replenish stamina).