Stun resistance

[Grey]

I'm personally quite happy with all the nerfing ideas. DarkGod's I probably like best, since I suggested the same myself earlier ;) It leads to less guarantee of having monsters stunned for exactly x turns (especially ridiculous when using Flameshock). I'd personally like to see a lot more monsters with 10-50% stun resistance if this is implemented.

So how are you going to compensate rouges and warriors?

By reducing all the 100% stun resistant enemies to sub-50% levels. That way regular monsters aren't cheap easy kills and big baddies aren't impossible. Monsters will still be stunned for some turns, but the higher their resistance the quicker they'll likely break out. Increase your stun talent and it'll be more reliable (since they have more checks to pass).

[Mithril]

I'm personally quite happy with all the nerfing ideas. DarkGod's I probably like best, since I suggested the same myself earlier It leads to less guarantee of having monsters stunned for exactly x turns (especially ridiculous when using Flameshock). I'd personally like to see a lot more monsters with 10-50% stun resistance if this is implemented.

So how are you going to compensate rouges and warriors?

By reducing all the 100% stun resistant enemies to sub-50% levels. That way regular monsters aren't cheap easy kills and big baddies aren't impossible. Monsters will still be stunned for some turns, but the higher their resistance the quicker they'll likely break out. Increase your stun talent and it'll be more reliable (since they have more checks to pass).

That last is a good idea also with Sus's system. However, the one save check per turn system does not solve the fundamental problem of this thread. That you can be instantly killed by a monster with a stun attack, or a group of monsters including one with stun attack, unless you have 100% stun resistance. One save check per turn does not change the situation if the the rng does not favor your. It does not change anything compared to the current system if you encounter a monster or a group of monster that can kill you in two turns and you fail one stun save check thus allowing them to kill you. Sus's system solves the fundamental problem of this thread.

[Vee]

I'll just take the numbers already stated for late game: 7 turns stun. means 7 checks to break out early. each check has 10% chance to fail (which is a probability of 0.1) take 7 checks with 0.1 and you have a chance of 0.0000001 (0.00001%) to really stay all 7 turns. Same chance to find the Blood of Life in Trollshaws Level 1 (I just did!)... I really think this are reasonable chances.

[Grey]

I'll just take the numbers already stated for late game: 7 turns stun. means 7 checks to break out early. each check has 10% chance to fail (which is a probability of 0.1) take 7 checks with 0.1 and you have a chance of 0.0000001 (0.00001%) to really stay all 7 turns. Same chance to find the Blood of Life in Trollshaws Level 1 (I just did!)... I really think this are reasonable chances.

That's if you have 90% resistance. Personally I'd like stun resistance to be something worth having 30-50% on, but nothing mandatory above that (a bit like all the damage resistances). With 50% it's a 1 in 128 chance of getting stunned for 7 turns. I'll admit this isn't actually that great for the player, but it's a lot better than the 1 in 2 chance of the current system.

Mithril: Regarding a monster that can kill in two turns... what the hell are you going to do against it normally? Heal every other turn? A stun for 1 or 2 turns won't cause deaths out of the blue unles you're exploring at lowish health and in too dangerous an area. It's the 4+ turn stuns that need to be reduced or removed. And it still leaves freezes in the game....

[teachu2die]

I dont think anybody is still considering "giving stun immunity for free", at least I am not

I have implemented the "stun will reduce energy" idea (aka slow you heavily). We will see how it rolls.
PS: This does *NOT* mean you get to act the turn after the stun, since you are slower

i think i find that a bit worrisome - wasn't part of the goal here to give the player a turn to respond to the stun? one unexpected lost turn is still likely fatal at higher levels, which still makes 100% resistance basically essential.
also, seeing that most stuns only last for 3 turns against elites, won't it basically make having stun resistance anywhere between 30%-99% essentially the same? ie: the player loses one turn.

Mithril: Regarding a monster that can kill in two turns... what the hell are you going to do against it normally? Heal every other turn? A stun for 1 or 2 turns won't cause deaths out of the blue unles you're exploring at lowish health and in too dangerous an area. It's the 4+ turn stuns that need to be reduced or removed. And it still leaves freezes in the game....

oh, plenty of stronger monsters, particularly bosses, can kill you in two turns if they use their more powerful attacks successively or score unexpected crits. and normally you have a chance to heal/phase/buff/retreat/attack in an attempt to kill/etc in crisis situations.

[Grey]

Well has there been any suggestion which really solves that?

I said maybe allow potion use when stunned - would at least give the char a chance to heal, or to drink a free action potion before a really nasty attack comes in. This also doesn't nerf the ability at all for players, since monsters can't drink potions (though I think that's a bad thing :P)

Edit: On consideration, it's not that big a deal - just make sure you have items on you to get 100% stun res for those rare occasions when you face something that nasty which stuns. Extra preparation for boss fights is to be expected.

[teachu2die]

Well has there been any suggestion which really solves that?

I said maybe allow potion use when stunned - would at least give the char a chance to heal, or to drink a free action potion before a really nasty attack comes in. This also doesn't nerf the ability at all for players, since monsters can't drink potions (though I think that's a bad thing )

Edit: On consideration, it's not that big a deal - just make sure you have items on you to get 100% stun res for those rare occasions when you face something that nasty which stuns. Extra preparation for boss fights is to be expected.

my assumption, for whatever reason, with both sus's system and the stun meter was that the lost turns would occur throughout the duration of the stun/slow, not initially.
i really liked your potion use idea, and incorporated a lot of those concepts into the stun meter thing. i think some way of giving the player a chance to 'react' to the stun is important, even if it is under some kind of increased failure chance.
and i think part of the issue is that it's fairly hard to cobble together 100% stun resistance under any circumstances right now unless you extensively scum the merchant's shop. you can carry around free action potions for boss situations, but for longer/more difficult boss fights (the master), those are not something to be heavily relied on.

[Mithril]

Mithril: Regarding a monster that can kill in two turns... what the hell are you going to do against it normally? Heal every other turn? A stun for 1 or 2 turns won't cause deaths out of the blue unles you're exploring at lowish health and in too dangerous an area. It's the 4+ turn stuns that need to be reduced or removed. And it still leaves freezes in the game....

Well, if I notice that I have just lost over half of my HP in a single turn I my decide that I am out of my depth and decide to level up somewhere else before coming back and PD away. Alternatively, I may PD the offending monster away. If it was caused by a mass of monsters mobbing me in a room I my retreat to a corridor where I may take them on one at a time. If it was due to a special attack I may possible use an item or rearrange equipment in order to achieve resistance against this attack.

So yes, the 1 turn complete stuns should also be removed, at least if you have partial stun resistance.

[Mithril]

Well has there been any suggestion which really solves that?

Yes, Sus's idea solves everything. Removes instant death from players (and bosses!) if you have partial stun resistance, does not nerf stuns against monsters with no stun resistance which some classes rely on at least in the initial game, does not require everyone, including monster bosses, to have 100% stun resistance, and finally, it is not a vague suggestion and likely simple to implement.

Can not see any problem with it. The only concrete objection seems to be an esthetic one ("It is to similar to slow!").

[Gwai]

I think it will nerf-squared all rogue classes. They really aren't made to take hits -- they're made to hit something on the back of the head and then stab it until it's dead or until it wakes up and needs to be stunned again. Okay, so that's a bit of a simplification, but they're definitely not made to warrior it out. If you make stuns something that a strong mob can get out of fast, I can't imagine how a young rogue would survive or why anyone would bother to play rogues anymore.


(rogue not rouge, by the way, I have a bugaboo about that. Rouge is make-up.)

[Mithril]

I think it will nerf-squared all rogue classes. They really aren't made to take hits -- they're made to hit something on the back of the head and then stab it until it's dead or until it wakes up and needs to be stunned again. Okay, so that's a bit of a simplification, but they're definitely not made to warrior it out. If you make stuns something that a strong mob can get out of fast, I can't imagine how a young rogue would survive or why anyone would bother to play rogues anymore.


(rogue not rouge, by the way, I have a bugaboo about that. Rouge is make-up.)

That some bosses and other powerful monster have 100% stun resistance is a separate problem that already exists under the current system. I do not think Sus's system change the current situation much for rogues. if anything the situation improves.

No monster stun resistance = same as now.
Partial monster stun resistance = monster is slowed instead of having a chance of being stunned. A slow monster is in deep trouble if you play correctly. On the other hand, with the current system if the monster is not stunned the rogue may be in deep trouble.
100% monster stun resistance = same as now.

[Grey]

Even in the current system stuns are not guaranteed against enemies, since they get a saving throw. It's not the end of the world if you don't completely immobilise an enemy. Even with a nerfed stun you'll still get way more attacks in than the enemy (with the chance of dancing around them without getting hit) and you'll get the extra rogue hits. If anything it'll be more fun!

[edge2054]

I just thought of an ingenious solution.

Okay, so stun resist works as has been suggested.

If you have 50% stun resist you take a 50% stun when you get stunned, rather then an all or nothing affair.

Now, as to what stun actually does. It adds a special type of fatigue called stun.

A full stun is a 100% fatigue addition (effectively, it's not actually fatigue because it does effect stuff that fatigue won't such as equilibrium). A stun when you have 50% stun resist gives you +50% stun fatigue.

The result. You can still act while stunned. You can still act just as effectively as you would normally. However doing anything other then using base attacks or moving is going to exhaust you very quickly.

The player ends up having to make a choice. Do I burn all my stamina, mana, whatever now or do I wait until my stun effect wears off? Do I run away to lick my wounds? Eat a potion? Or otherwise do stuff that doesn't require resources or wear myself out?

The reason this is the best option is because it adds strategy to the game, effects players and npcs both, makes stuns stackable (since it's no longer a binary effect), and best of all... makes them survivable while still being very very nasty.

[darkgod]

And nerfs very hard clases that uses stuns, because a hard hitting npc without many talents would be nearly unaffected

[edge2054]

And nerfs very hard clases that uses stuns, because a hard hitting npc without many talents would be nearly unaffected

However the hard hitting creatures with talents wouldn't have to have stun immune set to 1 and honestly those are the ones I worry about myself, not the ones that don't use talents.