*IMPORTANT* To middle-earth or not to middle-earth

[asthmatic_thematic]

I think the Tolkien part of Tome2 was 90% of what drew me--especially given that I quickly switched to the theme module of T2, as it was more pure. I first got into roguelikes through Moria, because I had finished rereading Tolkien's books Yet Another Stupid Time, and just needed to continue the fix.

I can think of two easy options if a clash is imminent, or if one wants to switch just in case.

- Take the major memes of Tolkien's work, and shift them over to a new game. This is sort of what I was suggesting in the Dark Captain and Dark Gifts idea thread, http://forums.te4.org/viewtopic.php?f=39&t=22987. Generally, the idea of a lieutenant of a greater power trying to bring him back, the lieutenant's placing his powers into physical objects which then undoes him, and so forth are tropes which are invulnerable to copyright worries.

- Go back one step farther: rather than taking Tolkienian tropes, go back to what influenced Tolkien himself. The sources are almost unimaginably deep. We're talking Mabinogion, l'Morte d'Arthur, the Nibelungendleid and Teutonic mythology, Frasier's The Golden Bough, celtic influences, Catholic influences, Old English lore, Beowulf, Icelandic sagas, etc. Take, totally at random, what Susan Cooper has described as the idea of the Dux Bellorum of England: that there is something so special about England that the island throws up a hero to defend against every invader; this hero or Fisher King is defeated, but his courage and the island's magic absorb the invader, rather than being defeated simpliciter. This is Caractacus/Norma/Boadicea of the celts against the Romans, Arthur of the celticised Romans against the Angles, King Alfred the Great of the anglicized celtic romans against the Danes, Ivanhoe against the Normans, and so forth. DG says that historical settings are "known"; but the management of the decline of power of the Romans in England is one of the truly extraordinary stories of history, and is far from known. Add magic and mythological and folk influences to that mix, and you have a game that could give Tolkien a run for his money and give historians conniptions.

There may be additional possibilities of looking to other great copyfree fiction which has a more ready-made plot. I'm thinking something like Lord Dunsany or other old fantasy writers. I don't know.

I do love my Tolkien, but what I really want from T4 is *depth*. I want a big macguffin that I'm supposed to destroy, but I want to feel like there's a thousand years of history behind it, even if just hinted at. I would be sad to lose the Tolkien, but with a lot of work, a new macguffin could rise!!!

[asthmatic_thematic]

To be clear, I'm not saying one should actually try to recreate 5th century England as a roguelike.

But just come up with new names and made-up fantasy stuff behind the following simple scenario: there's an emerald island. On the island is a recently fallen great culture (the Romans, re-named), who had semi-civilized a barbaric nature-loving culture (the druids and celts). Now invading are nasties who function in tribes and are very warlike (the germanic tribes), maybe who had been first invited in as mercenaries.

Then come up with a macguffin. This could be: find excalibur (newly named), navigate through ragnarok (there are frost giants in one adjacent world, and fire giants in another, and dark elves, and...) to its end (maybe save the World Tree?), go out and kill Grendel, stop Arawn, the lord of the dead of welsh mythology, kill the three fates or norns to show you have free will, kill the sheriff of nottingham, whatever.

Then use all the other mythology, esp the Nibelungenleid, suitably renamed, to add side quests and rationalize how the macguffin works. That's all.

Although I would be pretty impressed if someone did create a 5th century England roguelike.

[Kats]

I am intrigued about creating a new background story for your roguelike.

I agree that with wider playerbase you risk running into problems.

I have tried to write phantasy in the past, so I am a bit familiar. If you need help writing anything, let me know. I can submit some of my work for your reading if you're interested in my writing style. I wouldn't mind writing some of the lore for your world.

[darkgod]

Sure!
Send stuff my way please

[Narsil]

* Changed game setting from middle earth to the custom world of Eyal, with full history and lore to support it

So, after years, true Tales Of Middle Earth died, replaced by YAFW, yet another fantasy world. Sad.

[edge2054]

At least it's not YATR anymore

(Yet Another Tolkien Ripoff)

[darkgod]

Yes because no fantasy world can be good.
As I said on the blog post, I love middle earth, but really you have to admit it, it did not feel logical at all to have all those magic things in a ME setting.

[Grey]

Yeah, I've come round to thinking that it's better to create a new setting than rape an old one. A lot of the things being added are completely inappropriate for a Tolkien setting.

[madmonk]

Yes because no fantasy world can be good.
As I said on the blog post, I love middle earth, but really you have to admit it, it did not feel logical at all to have all those magic things in a ME setting.

We are now only limited by our imagination! That is a good thing!

[kazak]

I also was initially drawn to Angband (and then tome) over a decade ago due to the Tolkien theme. Obviously there's a bit of controversy here over the removal of the Tolkien-themed elements. For what it's worth (and I actually am an attorney), I would tend to think any intellectual property claims would be far-fetched considering the non-commercial nature of these games. Of course it would still be ridiculously costly to defend against if the Tolkien estate did take a litigious stance.

Despite that, I understand the desire to play it safe and just do the changes; that's always going to be the safest choice. If people are still upset by the change once the game takes off, though, another solution/compromise might be a Tolkien-mod that re-inserts the original elements. If any legal problems arise, the mod could just be removed leaving the non-infringing non-Tolkien game intact.

Would that be objectionable to folks around here (I understand that it may undermine a lot of the creative work that goes into imagining a new world) or should we just get over the whole Tolkien thing and move on?

[greycat]

Honestly, I don't miss the Tolkien stuff. It just gets in the way of making a decent game -- you have to figure out how to merge all your nifty changes into someone else's extremely restricted universe.

The one nice thing about the Tolkien atmosphere was that it provided a known starting point. Tolkien fans knew what to expect when entering Moria or Mirkwood. They won't know what "Reknor" means at first. So there's some mental cataloguing that has to take place, integrating all the new names. After that, everything's much better.

[getter77]

I also was initially drawn to Angband (and then tome) over a decade ago due to the Tolkien theme. Obviously there's a bit of controversy here over the removal of the Tolkien-themed elements. For what it's worth (and I actually am an attorney), I would tend to think any intellectual property claims would be far-fetched considering the non-commercial nature of these games. Of course it would still be ridiculously costly to defend against if the Tolkien estate did take a litigious stance.

Despite that, I understand the desire to play it safe and just do the changes; that's always going to be the safest choice. If people are still upset by the change once the game takes off, though, another solution/compromise might be a Tolkien-mod that re-inserts the original elements. If any legal problems arise, the mod could just be removed leaving the non-infringing non-Tolkien game intact.

Would that be objectionable to folks around here (I understand that it may undermine a lot of the creative work that goes into imagining a new world) or should we just get over the whole Tolkien thing and move on?

Technically, If I understand correctly, I think it could be a case where ToME 4 as it was...could simply "continue" onwards under the auspices of others as Yet Another Module for "ToME 4"? Kind of like how there's that Diablo-flavour module of Neverwinter Nights or some such. Or people could liven up dev of ToME 2 or 3 again I guess---source is available I think...

[Grey]

So I'm definitely all for keeping the Tolkien stuff - game won't be the same without them, in my opinion. Not unless you can think up a particularly enthralling backstory yourself (not saying you can't, but you've a lot to live up to).

How times change... It's weird to think I was so opposed to a change of lore before :P

Also, hah, in the original post DarkGod said that non-beta would be "soon"!

[darkgod]

Ahah yeah you did change your opinion on the matter I believe