Stun resistance

[Grey]

If every char is to get 100% stun resist, why don't we just remove stunning enemies altogether?

(I don't mean that seriously, just pointing out how silly it is.)

[Gwai]

Because if we remove them, then we wouldn't have any reason to think about how to acquire 100% stun resistance or how to balance that need with other needs or other such interesting questions! And yes, stun resistance is obviously optional. Like others on this thread however, I work to find out how my characters can get the best stun resistance possible, and feel it is too hard to get.
Have you ever played T2, Grey? If so, think about the way resistances were done there. At least some of us greatly enjoyed trying to arrange our armor to get decent resistance to many elements. Just because one probably had to have fire immunity to win, didn't mean it wasn't interesting deciding how to get it and how early one had to do so.

[Grey]

I've never played T2. I don't mind the idea of getting 100% fire resistance for a certain area (or enough healing to manage a speedy trip), but I don't like the idea of needing 100% resistance for near the whole damned game. If *not* having the requisite item set somehow makes the game unplayable then the whole effect needs a serious rethink, rather than simply finding more ways to give everyone full resistance. Mandatory resistance is boring.

[Gwai]

What do you think about my points concerning armor management, etc? THere are many things one needs throughout the game, high hp for instance. However, I might decide to let my hp slip to work on something else. One has to decide whether defense or stun is more important or perhaps cold res. Simple isn't the word for it.

[edge2054]

I managed to get to the far east and through the spider liar with just 30% stun resist so I don't think it's exactly mandatory.

This was also with a mainly melee oriented class. For a ranged class I can see it as being even less mandatory.

Granted... I have some very nice saves, good armor, and lots of hit points.

Also... as soon as I found armor of stability I bought it. Dumping my Fortified Plate for a suit of Chain Mail so I can't argue with it's value. I just don't mandatory is the right word.

[overtrix]

Ever since an Ancient Multi-Hued Dragon first breathed gas (693 damage, likelihood of death 100%) and left folk staring blankly at the VT100, there's been instadeath in roguelikes. Bring it on

The text was bright green and you played into the night at work with lights out, having dodged the security folk - PCs were about the price (and size) of a detached house in London - so after this chilling finale everything looked pink for quite a while, which was quite groovy really.

Yours, Old Fart XX

[Mithril]

So far there seems to be these main suggestions to fixing perceived stun problems (instant death, 100% stun resistance more or less obligatory, less than than 100% or or relying on physical save can still mean instant death, other armor except stability comparatively useless regardless of other characteristics, unwinable game if the rng does not favor you regarding stun resistance?):

1. Make 100% stun resistance easier to get. This may be done in a variety of ways. Such as abilities such as CON giving some stun resistance, making items more often having stun resistance, by creating a stun resistance talent that everyone can get, or linking stun resistance to an existing talent such as armor talents that everyone can get.

2. Nerf stun in various ways (shorter duration or can do some actions such allowing drinking of potions of Free Action). The main objection is that this may also nerf the classes relying on stun for dealing with tough monsters.

Personally I am starting to favor 2. Certain tough monsters already have 100% stun resistance so stun based characters already have the problem of their main tactic being blocked when they most need it. Nerfing stun could remove the need for having 100% stun resistance for monsters. Also feel that not allowing any actions and instant death is not elegant. So maybe stun should be changed to allowing some actions such as movement with reduced speed and drinking potions? Free Action being the preferred choice here for potions. Maybe also giving the Free Action potion increased duration and lower price in shops and/or more easily found? Also, maybe you cannot be stunned continually, you will always get at least one turn without stunning before you can be stunned again? I think these things would nerf stun in good ways without affecting stun based characters too much since monsters do not have potions of Free Action. In addition, 100% stun resistance for monsters could possibly be made less common.

[Susramanian]

Not sure if this has been posted, but here it goes. If we're going to nerf stunning instead of making it easier to protect against, I'd make stuns reduce your speed by 100%. With no resistance, this means a knock-out with no actions possible, like right now. If you have 20% stun resistance, then your speed is reduced by (100-20)% = 80%. Very bad, but more forgiving than now. With 100% resistance, your speed is reduced by 0, so there's no effect.

But I'm cool with how stunning is now. Bring on the stun resist gear and stun resist talents!

[Grey]

Not sure if this has been posted, but here it goes. If we're going to nerf stunning instead of making it easier to protect against, I'd make stuns reduce your speed by 100%. With no resistance, this means a knock-out with no actions possible, like right now. If you have 20% stun resistance, then your speed is reduced by (100-20)% = 80%. Very bad, but more forgiving than now. With 100% resistance, your speed is reduced by 0, so there's no effect.

That's quite a nice, simple idea.

[Mithril]

Not sure if this has been posted, but here it goes. If we're going to nerf stunning instead of making it easier to protect against, I'd make stuns reduce your speed by 100%. With no resistance, this means a knock-out with no actions possible, like right now. If you have 20% stun resistance, then your speed is reduced by (100-20)% = 80%. Very bad, but more forgiving than now. With 100% resistance, your speed is reduced by 0, so there's no effect.

That's quite a nice, simple idea.

Agree.

[teachu2die]

Not sure if this has been posted, but here it goes. If we're going to nerf stunning instead of making it easier to protect against, I'd make stuns reduce your speed by 100%. With no resistance, this means a knock-out with no actions possible, like right now. If you have 20% stun resistance, then your speed is reduced by (100-20)% = 80%. Very bad, but more forgiving than now. With 100% resistance, your speed is reduced by 0, so there's no effect.

That's quite a nice, simple idea.

Agree.

thirded. that sounds worth playtesting, at the very least.

[Dervis]

Not sure if this has been posted, but here it goes. If we're going to nerf stunning instead of making it easier to protect against, I'd make stuns reduce your speed by 100%. With no resistance, this means a knock-out with no actions possible, like right now. If you have 20% stun resistance, then your speed is reduced by (100-20)% = 80%. Very bad, but more forgiving than now. With 100% resistance, your speed is reduced by 0, so there's no effect.

Although I agree with changing Stun as it is now, this is just a power 10 'Slow'.

Have you considered an inverted Silence of sorts... instead of blocking spells it would prevent using the skills and techniques like Stunning Blow, Disengage, change position and so on.

Another idea would be for it to break sustained abilities... Imagine fighting a big opponent and suddenly getting your Shield Wall or Evasion removed... that could be extremely dangerous without being a cheesy insta-kill.

[Mithril]

Not sure if this has been posted, but here it goes. If we're going to nerf stunning instead of making it easier to protect against, I'd make stuns reduce your speed by 100%. With no resistance, this means a knock-out with no actions possible, like right now. If you have 20% stun resistance, then your speed is reduced by (100-20)% = 80%. Very bad, but more forgiving than now. With 100% resistance, your speed is reduced by 0, so there's no effect.

Although I agree with changing Stun as it is now, this is just a power 10 'Slow'.

Have you considered an inverted Silence of sorts... instead of blocking spells it would prevent using the skills and techniques like Stunning Blow, Disengage, change position and so on.

Another idea would be for it to break sustained abilities... Imagine fighting a big opponent and suddenly getting your Shield Wall or Evasion removed... that could be extremely dangerous without being a cheesy insta-kill.

So you can still move normally, use all items, cast spells, and use your normal attack? That would enormously nerf stun and also the classes depending on stun attacks. See little need to bother much with stun resistance at all in that case. It would certainly be at the bottom of the resistance priority list.

While the suggested change is technically a very powerful slow if you get paralysed without stun resistance then the effect is quite different from slow. Personally I think it is the best suggestion yet and seems to solve all the current problems with stun.

[Dervis]

Not sure if this has been posted, but here it goes. If we're going to nerf stunning instead of making it easier to protect against, I'd make stuns reduce your speed by 100%. With no resistance, this means a knock-out with no actions possible, like right now. If you have 20% stun resistance, then your speed is reduced by (100-20)% = 80%. Very bad, but more forgiving than now. With 100% resistance, your speed is reduced by 0, so there's no effect.

Although I agree with changing Stun as it is now, this is just a power 10 'Slow'.

Have you considered an inverted Silence of sorts... instead of blocking spells it would prevent using the skills and techniques like Stunning Blow, Disengage, change position and so on.

Another idea would be for it to break sustained abilities... Imagine fighting a big opponent and suddenly getting your Shield Wall or Evasion removed... that could be extremely dangerous without being a cheesy insta-kill.

So you can still move normally, use all items, cast spells, and use your normal attack? That would enormously nerf stun and also the classes depending on stun attacks. See little need to bother much with stun resistance at all in that case. It would certainly be at the bottom of the resistance priority list.

While the suggested change is technically a very powerful slow if you get paralysed without stun resistance then the effect is quite different from slow. Personally I think it is the best suggestion yet and seems to solve all the current problems with stun.

I'm just trying to think outside the box here. Just because in another game stun = short-term paralysis, it doesn't have to be the same here. In Angband and ToME 2 stun was nothing of the sort... stun abilities increased your stun counter, and you'd get penalties depending on how stunned you were, up to the point of being "Knocked Out" and pretty much hopeless.

We can change the ability to reduce the attack, physical resistance, whatever we want... but if you think we have to follow a certain route just because we have abilities called Shield Wall and Shadowstep in certain classes we might as well rename the game Tales of Warcraft and leave it at that.

[Mithril]

I'm just trying to think outside the box here. Just because in another game stun = short-term paralysis, it doesn't have to be the same here. In Angband and ToME 2 stun was nothing of the sort... stun abilities increased your stun counter, and you'd get penalties depending on how stunned you were, up to the point of being "Knocked Out" and pretty much hopeless.

We can change the ability to reduce the attack, physical resistance, whatever we want... but if you think we have to follow a certain route just because we have abilities called Shield Wall and Shadowstep in certain classes we might as well rename the game Tales of Warcraft and leave it at that.

Obviously it is possible to change everything. But greatly nerfing stun will greatly change many aspects of the game. Some classes such rogues and warriors greatly depend on stun attacks. Greatly nerfing stun will require major reworking of these classes. In general the game as a whole will become substantially easier for the other classes with stun almost removed as a danger so there will have to be general adjustments in game balance. Monsters that depend on stun as their main or as a major attack will have to be changed. Lots of work. See little gain from doing all these changes when the suggested change will fix the current problems of stun without requiring major changes to the rest of the game.