Preventing stairs cheating

[Shoob]

If there is no rule against stairs cheating then it is a legitimate game tactic

now there is an oxymoron right there (legitimate cheating)

which is why I dont really think this thread is aptly named.

abuse maybe, but not cheating.

[Grey]

Another thing that would help against stairs abuse is monster respawning whilst the player is on the level. That way no cleared level is 100% safe - a monster could spawn out of sight and come cause trouble whilst you're healing up.

This would also help with another form of abuse that can occur if enemies are allowed to follow you up stairs. As it stands the player could spend thousands of turns on a cleared level setting up traps and digging corridors to make the set-up perfect for luring a boss into. Player set ups the level, lures the boss, and abuses the changed terrain to make the fight easier. With monster respawning they wouldn't have a hope of pulling this off well.

Another point on stairs-following - one should allow the monster a free attack on reaching the new level. It makes deliberate luring more difficult (such as splitting off parts of a group one by one). Enemies should also get a free move when you return to a level you fled from (not 100% sure if this happens already).

[yufra]

The main suggestion is not to just remove stair dancing, but replace it with something interesting.

Grey, I agree that monster spawning should be able to occur when a player is on a specific level, and that is exactly why I considered creating a Director AI for my module (http://forums.te4.org/viewtopic.php?p=93199#p93199). There currently is no way to place permanent traps, so maybe this is an extreme edge case.

In regards to stair splitting, maybe that should be a viable tactic? There are already certain corridor corner situations that offer a strategic advantage to handling large groups, so why shouldn't stairs offer a similar one? Retreating to stairs would give you:
1) initiative, the first attack
2) allow you to split of a single NPC from a group
3) protect yourself from AoE or targeted talents from the group (snow giant confusion, etc).

What is your goal in removing 1)? Do you want to discourage stair splitting and only have stairs used to retreat to another position on the previous level?

[Final Master]

I still don't see this as a problem. The idea of mobs chasing you up/downstairs is realistic, but also probably a death sentence. There is a reason why it is a vital part of survival to be able to safely use stairs in non-sustained level rogue-likes. Even though this is a sustained-level rogue-like, being able to use the stairs safely is still important. If npcs ARE able to chase you, I honestly think it should be limited on size. Say, nothing 3> size able to use the stairs, simply because they can't fit? And to make it moderately safe, only the mobs that were adjacent to you when you used the stairs can follow, and they appear the turn after your first turn in the new level. The idea of a whole new re-spawn upon entry/exit of npcs is the one I like the best though.

There are my suggestions, but I really think it should be left alone. I still stand by that if you need an artificial slap on the head to stop you from doing something, then you really need better self control.

[Mithril]

I still don't see this as a problem. The idea of mobs chasing you up/downstairs is realistic, but also probably a death sentence. There is a reason why it is a vital part of survival to be able to safely use stairs in non-sustained level rogue-likes. Even though this is a sustained-level rogue-like, being able to use the stairs safely is still important. If npcs ARE able to chase you, I honestly think it should be limited on size. Say, nothing 3> size able to use the stairs, simply because they can't fit? And to make it moderately safe, only the mobs that were adjacent to you when you used the stairs can follow, and they appear the turn after your first turn in the new level. The idea of a whole new re-spawn upon entry/exit of npcs is the one I like the best though.

There are my suggestions, but I really think it should be left alone. I still stand by that if you need an artificial slap on the head to stop you from doing something, then you really need better self control.

Again, with stair cheating and stun resistance, say a fighter with shield wall and maximizing constitution in order to survive a single blow, most of the game is trivially easy. How much damage you do is irrelevant except as determining how many times you have to use the stairs. Making it impossible for large monster to use the stair means that these are doomed to the cheating.

Regarding "an artificial slap on the head to stop you from doing something", see my last post before this one.

[Grey]

In regards to stair splitting, maybe that should be a viable tactic? There are already certain corridor corner situations that offer a strategic advantage to handling large groups, so why shouldn't stairs offer a similar one? Retreating to stairs would give you:
1) initiative, the first attack
2) allow you to split of a single NPC from a group
3) protect yourself from AoE or targeted talents from the group (snow giant confusion, etc).

What is your goal in removing 1)? Do you want to discourage stair splitting and only have stairs used to retreat to another position on the previous level?

I agree that splitting should be a viable tactic, but I don't think it should be an easy and abusable one. It's not realistic to pull off enemies one by one to the next level and dispatch them with ease.

I will say that from my experience in ADOM, where going up/down stairs gives monsters a free move/attack, it adds a lot of tension to trying to lure a difficult enemy onto another level, or even just trying to run away from them. It makes the stairs escape a bit of a gamble in certain cases, and you have to tactically weigh up the odds of using the stairs or trying to teleport to another part of the level. It adds tactical thought to the choice, as well as thinking about different monster speeds or disabling monsters when dashing for the stairs. In TOME I would see this as meaning you'd try to stun the enemy before fleeing to make a clean escape - quite a sensible and realistic tactic.

I'm all for making choices interesting, rather than having them be no-brainer actions. There should be no simple risk-free escape if you get yourself into an incredibly dangerous position.

However I would also say that I think monsters should never be generated next to a player when they enter a level - there should be a minimum distance away. That way you also have a chance to plan and weigh up the options.

[yufra]

Grey, what if instead of giving the NPC a free attack on entering the level you have a turn BEFORE moving up the stairs. This could actually stop stair dancing if implemented by itself since the enemy will get two attacks to your one. The main problem I am having with NPC's getting a free round after entering the level is the realism... you are the one waiting for the NPC to come up the stairs so you should have initiative. If you are fleeing up the stairs with something right next to you they should get a free shot at you, no?

[Grey]

Yeah, giving monsters a move before would work as well. Kinda easily achieved too - make trancending stairs take two player turns to complete.

[Repton]

Would you need to change anything at all?

Using stairs appears to take 0 time at the moment, so if npcs can use stairs, they will effectively get a free turn at the top anyway...

[Gwai]

See, I still don't see why those who are bothered by the strategy of using stairs can just ... not use it! I'm not big on it myself generally, so I don't use it much. However, it can be useful and appropriate, so then it is available.

[yufra]

See, I still don't see why those who are bothered by the strategy of using stairs can just ... not use it! I'm not big on it myself generally, so I don't use it much. However, it can be useful and appropriate, so then it is available.

The title of the thread is not my goal... you are right if I simply wanted to prevent stair dancing then I could just not do it (and of course judge people that do stair dance, JUDGE THEM I SAY ). Rather I want to put something in that enhances the game, makes it more interesting by adding breadth to one's strategic repertoire; I think it would be fun for monsters to chase you between levels as you try to work your way back to a particularly good set of terrain/traps/whatever. If others do not think that would be fun just say the word, but then the same argument can be used: if you don't want to flee up the stairs and use this strategy, then don't.

[teachu2die]

i think i might like two-turn stair transit most of all. it just seems like the simplest, cleanest fix.

but i also kind of like making enemies to have a percent chance to follow you through stairs (possibly based on their cunning vs. your cunning). this would make it feasible to run from an enemy, but risky to repeatedly try to stair scum.
one could also make the stairs for some boss-levels 'collapse' upon entrance (perhaps with a warning prompt "these stairs look unstable" or something), which would eliminate stair dancing bosses, and make boss levels much more dangerous on the whole...

[STKAS]

I think one of the problems is that it seems time stops on level below you. After going up the stairs you are able to rest for a 100 turns or whatever but nothing changes for the monsters. If you can stun them they are still stunned when you go back down allowing you to fight them permanently stunned. If the monsters healed more similarly to you while you were up the stairs it would be a lot less of an advantage as well.

Also i think the enemies should at least get a turn when you come down the stairs. They are sitting there waiting for you to get back. Yet you get the jump on them when you go down the stairs. Although if it is your first time going down you should get the first action. So maybe enemies that have targeted you get to act when you come down the stairs but others don't.

[itastelikelove]

i think i might like two-turn stair transit most of all. it just seems like the simplest, cleanest fix.

We should rephrase Bob's situation upon using stairs...

Code: Select all

########
#DDDDD@#
#DDDDDD#
#DDDDDD#
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There's no phase/teleport square available. Anything you will do next turn except using stairs is hopeless.

I dunno. Looks like it could get messy pretty quickly.

In general, i think that any solution should make stairs abuse progressively more risky, based on the number of times you have used the stairs in the last X turns (or something similar). More turns to complete the action, higher chance of being followed, chance to be dazed at the bottom, healing monsters more thoroughly, whatever. This way, escape (or cowardice, if you prefer ) is still a viable option, but abuse becomes much more difficult.

Ideally, I would say:

Have each set of stairs count the number of times you have used it. Have the count reset when the level does. Monsters heal while you are on another level.

First use - Free. If you're new to the dungeon, or the RNG hates you, you can either go somewhere friendlier or let the level reset once before moving on.

Second - Monsters adjacent to stairs have a low chance to follow you, based on your Dex and Cun and Stealth rating (and possibly on similar stats of enemies).

Third - All Monsters currently targeting you have a chance to follow after the number of turns it would ordinarily take them to reach the stairs. They don't change positions on their level, though, to avoid always creating impossible pile-ups around the stairs.

Subsequent - Chance of being followed increases. A lot.

Note: Monsters should only be able to go up the stairs one at a time, but they should all have a chance. So all adjacent monsters should get their chance, then all monsters two spaces away, and so on.

Pros:
-Monsters healing along with you means less cheating to beat things that are way out of your league.
-Monsters following means you can always use the stairs, but it's not guaranteed to be safe.
-Low early penalty means you can run away - High later penalty means you can't abuse as much.
-Basing chance to be followed on Dex/Cun/Stealth means Rogues are better at cheating. Yes, this is a Pro.
-One monster following per turn means you can use stairs as a viable bottleneck...as long as you can deal with one more monster per turn.
-Stairs can still be used to get a first strike, but only until the monster eventually makes it's follow check.

Cons:
-Characters who heal faster than normal can still abuse stairs.
-Basing chance to be followed on Dex/Cun/Stealth means Summoners are better at cheating. They only ever need help if there's nowhere to put a summon. And this wouldn't help with that anyway.
-Probably some other stuff I can't think of right now.

[Zonk]

In general, i think that any solution should make stairs abuse progressively more risky, based on the number of times you have used the stairs in the last X turns (or something similar). More turns to complete the action, higher chance of being followed, chance to be dazed at the bottom, healing monsters more thoroughly, whatever. This way, escape (or cowardice, if you prefer ) is still a viable option, but abuse becomes much more difficult.

What's the justification for it becoming riskier the more times you used that stair?
I can't really agree with this. I'd rather have the chance of monsters following be based on things such as you being noticed or not, and that monster's AI.

Also, I don't see why, in your pros and cons you keep calling this an 'abuse' or cheating.
The point of a change would be to turn this from something 'fishy' or 'cheap'(I don't think it's proper to call it cheating, as the game lets you do this by default, and doesnt' even suggest you should avoid doing it) to a valid tactic.
Tactical retreat SHOULD be a viable option, although with possible downsides. Monsters following would be the main one.
And there's nothing bad with some classes being better or worse at it, just like with other aspects of the game.

I also disagree with your anti-Summoner prejudice