Preventing stairs cheating

[Mithril]

Agreed repton

So maybe all that is needed is that npcs follow you ? which is only logical anyway.

Regardless if you choose this or the no exit when "in combat" I hope that the auto rest will also eventually be implemented.

[darkgod]

Yes autorest is something I really want to do
Also this proves I am not just a mean guy, I can also be nice!

[Grey]

There should always be a means of escape. Part of roguelike play is preparing, retreating, replanning, conquering (or dying). ADOM's system isquite good with monsters following if in melee range. Would be good to see the same in TOME, perhaps with monsters within a few squares showing up within a few turns.

[Mithril]

There should always be a means of escape. Part of roguelike play is preparing, retreating, replanning, conquering (or dying). ADOM's system isquite good with monsters following if in melee range. Would be good to see the same in TOME, perhaps with monsters within a few squares showing up within a few turns.

Stairs cheating is, hm, cheating. It means you can boringly easily defeat any monster that cannot kill you in one turn (or stun you).

edge2054's suggestion for following monsters seemed good to me and even "realistic": "For the rest of the level creatures should simply follow you. Rather then using creatures with in X radius of the player just have any creature targeting the player follow. Have the pathfinding algorithm calculate number of turns to the stairs and return that as how many turns the player has until the creature pops in. (With the obvious exception that no_move creatures shouldn't follow.)"

I personally also liked DG's initial idea of not being allowed to leave when "in combat" for causing an nice oppressive claustrophobic atmosphere although if may be less "realistic" (if you cannot leave when monsters are only in sight).

[Repton]

Alternatively, in order to avoid waiting for a whole dungeon level regeneration, the entry stairs only spawn in corridors which should be safer. Or no monster are allowed to initially spawn near the entry stairs. Or no monster are initially allowed to spawn in a position where they can see the player.

The mental situation I always come back to is the Vor Pride, which is very open and full of high level spellcasters.

No npcs in sight of the stairs? That can be a very big area!

I'd be in favour of NPCs chasing you up stairs, espeically if it's realistic (i.e. they continue to move towards the stairs on the lower level, and then move up as they reach them).

[PowerWyrm]

Guys...
The first thing you should consider is that the game should be playable. If you know that for each dungeon level there's a chance, small but not negligible, that taking stairs will lead you to a level with 30 dragons in LOS, and that the next turn they will breathe for 10 times your current HPs, and that your only safe escape is unusable because you're supposed to be "in combat mode"... then you would probably stop playing. You should always be able to retreat safely if the danger on the new level is too high for your current level. Then it's your choice to proceed (and probably die), or to come back later when you feel that your character is more powerful.

[Mithril]

Guys...
The first thing you should consider is that the game should be playable. If you know that for each dungeon level there's a chance, small but not negligible, that taking stairs will lead you to a level with 30 dragons in LOS, and that the next turn they will breathe for 10 times your current HPs, and that your only safe escape is unusable because you're supposed to be "in combat mode"... then you would probably stop playing. You should always be able to retreat safely if the danger on the new level is too high for your current level. Then it's your choice to proceed (and probably die), or to come back later when you feel that your character is more powerful.

Well, a number of solution have been proposed to that if one does use the "in combat mode" system:
1. You can return if that is the first thing you do after entering a new level.
2. Monsters do not spawn intially near the stairs.
3. Monsters do not spawn intially in line of sight of the stairs.
4. The stairs only spawn in corridors or if there are no corridors in the smallest room there is.

Can be combined.

[yufra]

Yes autorest is something I really want to do
Also this proves I am not just a mean guy, I can also be nice!

I was skimming this thread to get a feeling for what had already been said, and saw the above radical suggestion.

I like the idea of the player being able to retreat and monsters follow. The most realistic way to do this would be to have all game levels loaded and run AI on all of them. Monsters on a recently departed level would continue to follow your distance map, eventually ending up on the stairs at which point they should be instantly transported to a freegrid on the connecting level (to avoid overlap issues previously common in the SWL). I have no estimation of the performance of such a setup, and maybe just keeping the last level would be a decent approximation. Tweaks to some of the movement types (Astar and the direct Xorn pathing) would be required as well.

If the "in-combat" approach is selected then you can figure out how many monsters are looking for the player by counting how many monsters have the player as their target. Maybe if a monster knows the player is on the level (either saw him/her or was told about it) but cannot find him/her then they could start pathing towards the stairs. This would make stair dancing impossible for all but those with controllable phase door (or other conveyance).

[Mithril]

Yes autorest is something I really want to do
Also this proves I am not just a mean guy, I can also be nice!

I was skimming this thread to get a feeling for what had already been said, and saw the above radical suggestion.

I like the idea of the player being able to retreat and monsters follow. The most realistic way to do this would be to have all game levels loaded and run AI on all of them. Monsters on a recently departed level would continue to follow your distance map, eventually ending up on the stairs at which point they should be instantly transported to a freegrid on the connecting level (to avoid overlap issues previously common in the SWL). I have no estimation of the performance of such a setup, and maybe just keeping the last level would be a decent approximation. Tweaks to some of the movement types (Astar and the direct Xorn pathing) would be required as well.

If the "in-combat" approach is selected then you can figure out how many monsters are looking for the player by counting how many monsters have the player as their target. Maybe if a monster knows the player is on the level (either saw him/her or was told about it) but cannot find him/her then they could start pathing towards the stairs. This would make stair dancing impossible for all but those with controllable phase door (or other conveyance).

That would be most realistic for the "follow player up stairs" system but likely difficult to do. The proposal by edge was simply to calculate following time for those monsters who was tracking the player when he used the stairs.

The "in-combat" system eliminates stair cheating for everyone by making leaving the level impossible if a monster is tracking you or in sight. Not very realistic but then neither is the current system where the monsters cannot leave.

[Mithril]

Simplest to implement is likely my initial idea that you can only use stairs if fully rested already (having max hp, max mana, and so on).

[Burb Lulls]

So, a test situation. Bob the adventurer enters a new level...

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Turning the first corner, he sees...

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Horrors! An out-of-depth multi-hued wyrm! The wyrm uses its first turn to blast Bob, and he's already on the ropes, 50/450HP. Stair-scumming or not, he's not beating this thing. Bob flees for the exit... (luckily, he knows disengage )

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Now, three situations could play out:

HOW IT IS NOW: Bob flees, the wyrm remains on this level. Bob rests up on the recently-emptied previous level/wilderness, and either waits for the enemies on this level to be repopulated or goes to adventure somewhere else.

NPCS FOLLOW YOU: Bob flees, but the wyrm follows him! Looks like Bob will have to keep fleeing. Tricky, but with haste, skill and judicious use of phase door/teleport, possible.

STAIRS NOT ALLOWED BECAUSE OF COMBAT/HP: Bob dies, no chance, game over, RNG laughs, your skill is not a factor, please enter your initials.

[yufra]

Mithril, true.

[Mithril]

HOW IT IS NOW: Bob flees, the wyrm remains on this level. Bob rests up on the recently-emptied previous level/wilderness, and either waits for the enemies on this level to be repopulated or goes to adventure somewhere else.

As it is now only pure stupidity by Bob will allow him to be killed by monsters that cannot kill him in in one turn or does not stun him. For other monsters if Bob can reach the stairs, monster HP, Bob's own attack, and everything else is completely irrelevant except as determining how many times Bob will have to stair cheat before killing the stairs halting monster.

NPCS FOLLOW YOU: Bob flees, but the wyrm follows him! Looks like Bob will have to keep fleeing. Tricky, but with haste, skill and judicious use of phase door/teleport, possible.

An adventurer without phase door/teleport deserves to be eliminated.

STAIRS NOT ALLOWED BECAUSE OF COMBAT/HP: Bob dies, no chance, game over, RNG laughs, your skill is not a factor, please enter your initials.

Looks like the dragon could have killed Bob before he reached the stairs by blasting again so it was pure luck that Bob survived regardless. Furthermore, was what Bob doing without phase door/teleport so he could get out the monster's line of sight? Should he really be exploring this level without some means of detection? Obviously being in a situation where a monster can blast you twice in a long corridor is not something unique for a corridor close to stairs so Bob's problem could have happened anywhere regardless of how stairs function.

[Burb Lulls]

An adventurer without phase door/teleport deserves to be eliminated.

Where did I say he didn't have phase door/teleport?

Furthermore, was what Bob doing without phase door/teleport so he could get out the monster line of sight?

Where did I say he didn't have phase door/teleport? And using a non-controlled phase door/teleport on a completely unexplored level every time a difficult enemy happens to be near the stairs seems to be a rather artless solution to the stair-scumming problem, but I'll concede he could have.

As it is now only pure stupidity by Bob will allow him to be killed by monsters that cannot kill him in in one turn or does not stun him.

He didn't have a choice but to be hit. He used his turn to go around the corner, the wyrm used its turn to breathe. Leading to...

Should he really be exploring this level without some means of detection?

Just about every non-archmage character before track was implemented managed it, and many still do.

... this level ...

Out-of-depth multi-hued wyrm. They happen.

Looks like the dragon could have killed Bob before he reached the stairs by blasting again so it was pure luck that Bob survived regardless.

Very well. I mentioned disengage to get past the fact I only hastily made my example. A revised example:

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Now Bob can reach the stairs easily after the initial wyrm attack.

[Mithril]

I repeat that currently if Bob reaches the stairs and the monster cannot kill Bob in one turn, then monster HP, Bob's own attack, and everything else is completely irrelevant except as determining how many times Bob will have to stair cheat before killing the stairs halting monster.

Yes, obviously this would make the game more difficult for those using stair cheating constantly. Maybe you will have to hang around somewhat longer on lower levels and explore more carefully in order to find or buy more items such as detection items or better elemental resists before going deeper. Maybe you simply have to be more careful instead of charging straight on as quickly as possible. Most likely not a bad thing. Strategy and caution instead of mindless stair cheating for most supposedly "hard" monsters is most likely more enjoyable, varied, and interesting. Everything very easy gets boring and with stair cheating most monsters are no challenge.

I also repeat that being in a situation where a monster can blast you twice in a long corridor is not something unique for a corridor close to stairs so Bob's problem could have happened anywhere regardless of how stairs function.