Identification: thrilling or tedious?

[Mithril]

I think I'll go with auto ID all "obvious" items, so that the few unided ones will get the "ohh shiny" effect

This would be nice but was not in the new 12b beta. Any plans to implement it? Identification is still a boring chore that detracts from the game. Makes the game difficult for classes without an identify spell. To the point I see little reason playing them. For Archmages identification is instead a pointless and boring sequence of keystrokes every time a new object is encountered.

[darkgod]

Soon

[Mithril]

As far as I can tell ID works as before in beta 13. Except the ID chore got worse by shops no longer auto-identifing items when asking for a selling price which worked in beta 12.

However, by changing a single word in the LUA script you can experiment with completely bypassing the chore. In the folder game>engines>default>engine>interface> there is file called ObjectIdentify.lua. Make a back-up copy of it. If you open it with a text editor there is a section with the text "--- Is the object identified ?" before it. The function is called "function _M:isIdentified()". At the end of it there is a line with the text "return self.identified". Changing this to "return true" seems to make all items identified without causing problems.

I would suggest trying this out. In my opinion it greatly improves gameplay.

[darkgod]

Well soon does not always means next beta, there was enough things in this one already

I was pondering have a new kind of talent points, lets say "adventurer points", not many of them but they would be used for talent trees that ALL classes possess. Things like auto-id, inventory management and stuff that you would regret spending class/generic points on beucase it feels it disminishes the power of your character.

On the other hand this also makes one more kind of point of which there are alraedy quite a few

[Final Master]

Is it possible to include it passively and behind the scenes, with increases of potency tacked on with character level? That way there's no extra points, no extra trees, and no extra focusing on specific stats even further.

[darkgod]

Sure it is possible, I am just ot sure this is the way to go.. Hum
Well in the end I want most stuff to auto id except for artefacts and pwoerful egos, to keep the "wohhh" feeling

[edge2054]

I'm going to start a thread to brainstorm these adventurer points.

Basically what I'm thinking is all or nothing abilities kinda like perks in other games. Each meta-class could start out with a couple perks and then more perks could be gained in game somehow (either through questing or an extra point every blah levels.)

[darkgod]

yeah

[Susramanian]

My new solution for the identification problem:

All non-artifacts are IDed when you step on them. You have to step on them to prevent players from just browsing around the level using sense to find the worthwhile loot. Eliminate all existing forms of identification from the game (scrolls, wands, the spell, and whatever I might be forgetting.) The problem, then, is to identify artifacts.

The first time a character finds an artifact (probably Bill's club), he will have no way to identify it. When he picks it up, he automatically gets a quest that says something like, "You've found a mysterious item unlike anything you've seen in all your travels. Maybe somebody in Bree can decipher its mysteries, for you surely cannot."

In Bree, the player finds the Grand Master Enchanter, who is, obviously, a great expert on magical items and other such curiosities. The Grand Master Enchanter (I'll call him Walt from now on) welcomes the character and lights up at the sight of whatever artifact the character has brought him. Upon learning that the character is a successful adventurer, Walt bestows on him a scrying crystal, which the player can then use to invoke Walt's presence from anywhere on the planet. The next time the player finds an artifact, he uses the scrying crystal on it (just like a scroll of identify), and Walt examines the thing through the crystal, thus identifying it.

Link has Navi the fairy, Aladdin has his genie, and now our @ gets Walt the Grand Master Enchanter. Aside from the obvious tedium-reducing measures imposed by this system, it has a few other great advantages:

1) The descriptions of the artifacts as they stand right now are great (and I was thrilled to see them pop up as lore messages in beta 13!) but they don't really make sense. I mean, our @ finds a mysterious girdle on the ground, and sure, an ID scroll will let him know what it is, but where does that flowery prose about Bombur and Gandalf come from? With this scrying crystal, those bits of fun prose about the artifact would be Walt actually talking, telling the @ what he's found.

2) Besides doing identification duty, Walt can serve as Darkgod's voice and an easy means of giving the player information about the new (not Middle Earth) world. We don't want to have to go talk to random townspeople to get information about this strange new setting. That sucks. When the @ encounters something new and exciting, we can have Walt pipe up through the crystal and tell the @ what's going on. Example: "Gods above! The Orb of Many Ways has hauled you clear across the ocean to the Far East! This is going to be a veritable bonanza of interesting subject matter, [character name]. If I remember correctly, a group of sun-worshipping elves should have a settlement many miles to the east. Best get walking and find the elves before the orcs find you." This could be for something as momentous as seeing the Far East for the first time or for something as simple as first entering a new dungeon or town.

3) It could be adapted to give hints about the game in Easy mode.

4) Applying limitations to the system could be made vastly more interesting than the limitations on the current system. Maybe after Walt identifies X artifacts for the @, he says that it's about time you did something for him in return. Bring him the such-and-such from the legendary cave of adventurer doom and he'll agree to identify another X artifacts. Or maybe it's just a matter of the scrying crystal running out of juice, and he tells you that you need to go dip it in the blood of some unique dragon. While technically these are chores standing in the way of you getting identification done, they're fun chores. Hell, I'll be looking forward to running the crystal out of juice so that I get to go on a brand new adventure for Walt. Thus we create the illusion of limitation and give the player more fun stuff to do all at once.

All this could be made completely independent of the idea I proposed in my Grand Master Enchanter post. Walt could be Bree's sage, or Minas Tirith's resident madman, or whatever. I just wanted to plug my old Enchanter idea

[Mithril]

Susramanian. great idea!

[escargot]

I'm really digging that idea Susramanian, sounds really good. I specially liked the part of Enchanter-missions to recharge the crystal. I like missions that are not a must, but really helpful.

About the rest, I don't know, I've always liked identifying, from pen and paper to Diablo 2. But I also see myself leaving a lot of loot dropped in the dungeons because I can't carry more stuff. That was nicely solved in Torchlight, where you had your pet (NetHack style) you could send to town to sell the stuff you didn't need. It had it's price, not having your pet helping you with the mobs was noticeable.

But I don't think that's anything close to what T4 needs.

The moment I discovered pseudo-ID in T2 I jumped in joy. Just seeing a (excellent) or (unique) was really exciting and more than once I returned to town just to *ID* a pseudo-id'd item.
I think an option could be what we used to do in pen and paper (and what I somehow try to do now in T4). Test the items. And this could also work in conjunction with Susramanian idea.
For example:

You find a cashmere cloak in the middle of a vault. You use your crystal to ask the Enchanter what he sees in this fine cloak:

1) Enchanter: "This is really a fine cloak, but I don't recognize anything out of the ordinary."
cashmere cloak (normal)
(no identify needed, stats shown)

2) Enchanter: "This is really a fine cloak, it was probably made by a very skilled tailor. Wait, is that elvish webbing? Nice find!"
cashmere cloak (special) (no stats)
(after identifying with scroll/spell/else: stealthy elvish cashmere cloak, all stats shown)

3) Enchanter: "Let me see... Yes, indeed! How could I've missed the fabric. Balin's guards looked wonderfully with this handmade cloaks."
cashmere cloak (excellent) (no stats)
(after identifying with scroll/spell/else: resistant dwarven cashmere cloak of protection, all stats shown)

4) Enchanter: "Is this what I think it is? My goodness, I can't believe this cloak is still intact. Who could have thought that Boromir's heritage lies deep in caves and lost reigns..."
Boromir's Gondorian Cloak
(as being unique, it's completely ID'd by the Enchanter)

This way you keep the ego identifying via crystal Susramanian thought, you incorporate pseudo ID and don't discard ID items/spells/else.
Pseudo ID'ing would also reckon cursed items, if there's the idea of bringing them back.

I don't like the name Walt though, reminds of the annoying kid of Lost, haha.

[Gwai]

I for one would LOVE to see escargot's words made fact. Yes, yes yes!

[Mithril]

In practical terms this means that only non-ego items are automatically identified. Later in the game these become increasingly rare so the identification chore still remain.

Pseudo-id may easily be a pointless chore if you just put on everything and rest until you get the identification and then repeat with the next item. Alternatively, if you are supposed to hit/be hit by something, then you will wait until you have a suitably weak monster and then try your items on it. Also boring.

If identification should be interesting rather than labor, then it should IMHO be limited to only the most powerful artifacts and egos so that finding an unidentified item is rare and exciting.

I really suggest that those feeling that having most items unidentified is good to try having all items identified by modifying the LUA script as I described in an earlier post in this thread. I think that if testing having everything identified most people will not miss the identification chore.

[Susramanian]

Here are my problems with making the crystal do a pseudo-ID:

1) You still have to pound on your keyboard for every item you find, just like right now. The only change is that you'd be using a crystal instead of an ID scroll.

2) You still have to carry around a ton of ID scrolls. Particularly in the late game, the vast majority of loot is going to be green or blue. So if we're using our crystal, we'll need a couple keystrokes for the crystal on every single item and then a couple more for the almost inevitable identification that follows.

Under this system, I would very quickly find myself going back to cheating-- editing the lua files to eliminate the need for identification. Remember, the goal is the eradication of tedium. Items are everywhere in this game. I'm trying to propose a system that would keep us from having to jump through hoops for every one of them we find.

The next obvious move is to say, "how about the crystal pseudo-IDs the whole pack?" Well, that's better, but I'm still irritated by accumulating a backpack full of stuff and then IDing it all at once and sorting it. And then, since I'm hauling it all back to sell, my capacity for mass-ID slowly diminishes until I'm back to IDing stuff individually. I'll put in a token call for the removal of selling stuff to stores here.

How much of your time do you spend with your inventory window open IDing or sorting for selling? How much time is spent on figuring out which item is probably worth the least so you can determine what to drop? People might not even realize the answers to these questions if they've never played a no-selling and/or no-IDing game. I didn't realize until I played a no-selling Angband, and then I went, "Holy crap, I am spending a lot more time actually playing this game."

Let's just rip this whole stupid ID thing out of the game and put in something fun instead.

And yeah, Walt is not an appropriate name Darkgod can pick something Maj'Eyal-ish!

edit: Mithril is faster than me.

[darkgod]

I love your idea sus!

So next beta I'll remove scrolls & spell of ID. Instead there will be a shop in town where you can get all your stuff ided for a small fee.
Once you find your first artifact (which happens real fast obviously) you get a quets to go see Elisa the Scryer, who is quite friendly, and thrilled to see such a rare item.
She gives you an orb of scrying which will auto id normal items and egos when you pick them up, and can be activated to talk to Elisa directly for greater ego & artifacts ID.

I'll see about her giving you a few quests too, and possibly be "my voice" as you say