Racial Differences (but in a good way)

[yufra]

regarding races, i would like to see more differences, too, but because the game mechanics are so heavily stat based, its difficult. the best solutions i could come up with were
A)to have different races have stats that the received extra bonus points for investing in - ie: hobbits got an extra point of dex or cunnign for every 5 points they invested in the respective stat, dwarves and extra point of str/con, etc. probably not an ideal solution for a variety of reasons, but perhaps a good starting point for further brainstorming...
B) to have new races that have appealing bonuses to certain skills and skill modifiers, inherent resists, and adjusted regeneration rates (i thought it would be cool for instance, if druedain could regenerate equilibrium naturally, if dark elves had a .1 mana regen rate inherently, etc)...certainly the existing races could be modified to have some of these kinds of features...

I hadn't given a lot of thought to the differences between races until teachu2die wrote the above, and thought it deserved some focused discussion. I think both of the suggestions are valid, and could be extending the talents awarded at race selection. For example, dwarves would start with an additional point in Axe Mastery, hobbits could gain an additional 0.10 mastery in slings, that sort of thing. The issue of balance would arise, but I would welcome the differentiation.

[Final Master]

If we are to go the road of greater racial differentiation then we really would need more races I think so that players can create a very close idea of what theme of character they wish to play. A good example of this happening already is people wanting a real archer elf and a not so magical one so the second elf race was created.

If racial bonus were to start to delve into things such as confusion/blind resist, free talent points at birth, or greater stat points when invested in particular stats then we really need to be careful in how we go about it. As was pointed out in this topic http://forums.te4.org/viewtopic.php?f=36&t=22850 free points will may very well break the careful balance that has been attained currently. The fact that everything runs off of hard stat numbers as well would really skewer the balance as well. However, I believe that if it were things like a small resistance to ... blindness for dwarves; maybe 10% that would probably be okay. Similar things might be:

Skeleton: Darkness resist 5% (if they really need anything else)
Ghouls: Blight resist 5% (if they really need anything else)
Hobbits: Stun resist 5%
Dunadan: Disarm resist 5%
Nandor: Light resist 5%
Noldor: Nature resist 5%
Dwarf: Blind resist 5%

Anything too much more than that without a harsh look at how things should finally be developed as for a complete release I feel would be disastrous to the overall balance of race/class combinations.

[madmonk]

Racial Differences... break down to a number of different areas some of which have nothing to do with Race! I have seen a lot of comments around this in various threads around the effects of Race!

Big Question: Do we need to tweak Races and their effects?

Assuming that we do need to tweak it in some way...

1) Racial Bonuses

So on Character creation each race gets a bonus (positive or negative) to their stats. Should we tweak this in any way? Currently there are an awful lot of pluses and very few minuses...
We could adjust the experience penalty in some way.
Should we adjust the life points?

2) Talent

Each Race has a Talent at birth... Tweak this? I quite like the current set up but what do people think? Should we tweak the Bree-Man for instance to make it more attractive? Should we reduce the Undead Talents to something weaker?

3) Class Bonuses

Again on Character creation bonuses are applied. Here we have a second chance to differentiate each player. We could for instance introduce some negatives here - this is probably very stereotyped but Mages do not develop Strength at all so why not introduce a negative here? It would then make picking up and wearing the Helm of Hammerhand a more committed effort for the Mage.

4) Schools

We could introduce a racial bonus to certain Schools - I am not certain I like this very much, it tends to be very broad in effect and great care would have to be taken to balance it correctly...

5) Talents

Introduce a racial bonus to talents? By that I mean that at birth we give a free point in a talent or talents... Same deal, we need to balance this carefully if we decide to go this way...

6) We could tweak starting equipment - Dwarves always get a Pickaxe, Hobbits something else and so on.

There is lots more...

[Grey]

I have given a lot of thought to this actually, and have been putting some ideas together the last couple of days before making a post. Problems I have with races at the moment:

- they are mostly identical, and only offer some base flavour
- the initial stat differences are minor, and are utterly forgottten after a couple of levels
- the activated skills can be strong, but don't last long in battle and I generally find I forget about them most of the time. When it comes to a tough fight I don't want to waste a turn activating them, especially if the small effect only lasts 5 turns.
- the xp penalties are fairly arbitrary, and are about the same for most races anyway
- the HP raises are mostly the same, and HP is much more affected by Co. Also, it seems silly that HP is affected by race and not class (as far as I can tell).

Races should have a more intrinsic different gameplay feel to them, I think. Activated abilities do nothing for that, especially when there are many more important class abilities. The stat differences are too small to really notice. The undead obviously are quite a bit more different, but then I don't think the regular races should be quite that special. Still I do suggest the following:

- Stat increases every x levels
- Extra talent specialities
- Special starting equipment
- Much more drastic xp penalties
- Intrinsic always-on traits instead of activated abilities

My suggestions in full are thus:

Bree-Man
Actually, I'd keep these mostly the same, but I'd add an extra generic talent every 5 levels. Possibly an extra stat point every 6 levels. Maybe start with 3 different weapon types appropriate to the class, and a leather belt and gloves.

Dunedain
Keep the Gift of Kings, it's actually one of the more useful and memorable activated talents. Add +1 willpower every 4 levels. Give +2% mental resistance every 5 levels. Increase xp penalty to 20%. Start with a cured leather helmet.

Nandor
Swap the starting stats for willpower and dexterity - it's well-known for wood-elves to be fey and dextrous. Remove Grace of the Eldar. Instead the light-footed elves should have 0.9 base movement speed, and a chance not to set off traps (equal to half their dexterity, or perhaps level-based instead). Gain +1 dexterity every 4 levels.

Noldor
My favourite race, but right now they do not feel like the legendary beings who witnessed the light of the Trees of Valinor. Remove the Wrath of the Eldar, nice though it is. Instead those who are so connected to the forces of Arda should have innate spell resistance (10% initially, plus 5% every 8 levels). Initial stats should be reworked, as they were known to be great mages and cunning gem-smiths as well as fiercesome warriors - I say +2 St, +1 Dx, +1 Co, +2 Ma, +2 Wi, +1 Cu. In addition gain +1 Magic every 4 levels and +1 Willpower every 6 levels. Life per levels increased to 12. Starting weapon should also have a random ego. Increase xp penalty to 60% to compensate for the many bonuses. (essentially these would become an easy to start race who are hard to level)

Hobbits
Luck of the Little Folk seems a bit redundant when they already have the important stats to increase crits... Instead they should get a base increase to crits of 4%, +1% every 5 levels. Start with 1.0 mastery in slings (or +0.15 mastery for slingers). Always start with an enchanted ring. Xp penalty up to 25%.

Dwarves
As with hobbits, the activated ability should be innate instead. 7% physical damage resistance, +1% every 6 levels to those who were forged from the stone by Aule the master smith. +1 constitution every 4 levels. Increase life per levels to 13 (they should be better than hobbits!) Start with 1 additional talent point in heavy armour, and a suit of iron chain to match (maybe rogues would get hardened leather). Start with a dwarven lantern, and a one-handed axe in addition to their main weapon. Increase xp penalty to 40%.

Thoughts? I know it seems like quite a few extra bonuses, and it may be a bit unbalancing, but I don't see any other way to make the races feel properly different. It would also bring up better considerations of race/class combos (since currently class is the dominant effect and race is fairly irrelevant).

[Susramanian]

I'm all in favor of more interesting racial abilities and modifiers. What's the point of letting players choose race if it's an almost purely cosmetic issue? Let's load up the races with all sorts of interesting things. Let's make the race decision almost as important as the class decision. And balance be damned (for now). Game balance shouldn't be of great concern at this stage in T4's development; first we worry about features and fun, then we balance things... which, of course, makes everything even more fun.

[teachu2die]

Thoughts? I know it seems like quite a few extra bonuses, and it may be a bit unbalancing, but I don't see any other way to make the races feel properly different. It would also bring up better considerations of race/class combos (since currently class is the dominant effect and race is fairly irrelevant).

i think a lot of those changes are too extreme, but i definitely like the general direction and a lot of the ideas in general. the various stat boosts at periodic levels and some of the starting equipment changes could really help give some nice flavor and gameplay distinction.

I'm all in favor of more interesting racial abilities and modifiers. What's the point of letting players choose race if it's an almost purely cosmetic issue? Let's load up the races with all sorts of interesting things. Let's make the race decision almost as important as the class decision. And balance be damned (for now). Game balance shouldn't be of great concern at this stage in T4's development; first we worry about features and fun, then we balance things... which, of course, makes everything even more fun.

that sounds about right to me. i don't see there being any problem with a firebeard dwarf, for instance, getting 25% inherent fire resistance, or, say, giving ents stun resistance and knockback immunity. things can be counterbalanced by nasty drawbacks and/or substantial xp penalties. if you want the races to feel distinct, give them real advantages and real disadvantages. maybe ents have 50%-100% weakness to fire - it suddenly becomes a huge priority to avoid that fire drake that popped up in carn dum.

[edge2054]

- the activated skills can be strong, but don't last long in battle and I generally find I forget about them most of the time. When it comes to a tough fight I don't want to waste a turn activating them, especially if the small effect only lasts 5 turns.

Emphasized what I want to address.

I've also felt this way pretty often. When you're weighing rather or not it's a good idea to activate the dwarven buff (which is meant to help you survive) or drink a healing potion and time and time again you drink the potion because it'll do a lot more for keeping you alive the racials feel pretty meh.

The same can be said for many if not all of the racial talents. The hobbit one sounds great but is it really worth 1 round of damage to increase your damage by less then 20% for five turns (figure even a 30% increase in crit rate is less then a 20% gain in damage output because crits do 1.5 times regular damage after armor is factored in).

Anyway, my point isn't that everything should go passive but that these effects might see a lot more use and mean a lot more if they didn't cost energy to use.

[Repton]

Anyway, my point isn't that everything should go passive but that these effects might see a lot more use and mean a lot more if they didn't cost energy to use.

Or if they lasted longer?

Or maybe they could auto-activate?

e.g. Dwarf resilience could auto-cast (without using a turn) if you take 30% of your max health in a round.

Hobbit luck and Noldor valour could auto-cast if you attack something of boss rank or above.

Dunadan healing and Nandor speed if your health falls to below 30% of max.

[Grey]

I don't like the idea of auto-activate - would reduce the tactical use of talents (such as activating the Nandor speed whilst using ranged attacks against an enemy).

Reduced activation time would be great though. Either 0 time or 0.1 of a turn.

[darkgod]

I'm not a fan of autocast but instant-cast on the other hand are something I wanted to add for some time now, I agree this could make them much more useful