Could you explain these? I get some of them, but no idea what a hybrid or a controller is (is a controller a summoner?), or how a mage differs from an AOE (area of effect?) expert.Final Master wrote: What is your favorite class archtype in T4? Tank, Archer, AOE expert, Mage, Rogue, Hybrid, Controller? How well do you think these are represented so far?
How about some flavor players?
Moderator: Moderator
Re: How about some flavor players?
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- Sher'Tul
- Posts: 1022
- Joined: Fri May 21, 2010 8:16 pm
- Location: Inside the minds of all
- Contact:
Re: How about some flavor players?
Tank: Typically someone in melee that is capable of calling 'hate' from npcs towards them, can absorb way more damage/take way more hits than most any other class.
Archer: Usually someone using a launcher or magic that uses range as both offense and defense.
Mage: General term for characters that use effects that are not directly physical, usually using a resource pool limited only to them.
Rogue: Broad term for the sneaking characters. Usually melee, fast, and evasive. Rogues usually have the widest array of abilities.
Hybrid: Hybrids are usually classes that combine multiple aspects from multiple classes. T4 examples of these are clearly Arcane Blades and Shadow Blades.
AOE Expert: These are usually characters that fall under either mage or archer titles, but instead have decided or are forced into taking abilities that favor DOT or AOE types of attributes over self or single targets. It's really more of a specialized title, and I would say that Alchemists in T4 are the best example of AOE Experts currently.
Controller: A controller is someone that directs how and when events happen. They tend to be the ones that shape the fields with DOT effects, call allies, or redirect damage. I would say the upcoming Chronomancers and current Summoner are the current best examples.
AOE: Area of Effect
DOT: Damage over Time
Any more questions anyone?
Archer: Usually someone using a launcher or magic that uses range as both offense and defense.
Mage: General term for characters that use effects that are not directly physical, usually using a resource pool limited only to them.
Rogue: Broad term for the sneaking characters. Usually melee, fast, and evasive. Rogues usually have the widest array of abilities.
Hybrid: Hybrids are usually classes that combine multiple aspects from multiple classes. T4 examples of these are clearly Arcane Blades and Shadow Blades.
AOE Expert: These are usually characters that fall under either mage or archer titles, but instead have decided or are forced into taking abilities that favor DOT or AOE types of attributes over self or single targets. It's really more of a specialized title, and I would say that Alchemists in T4 are the best example of AOE Experts currently.
Controller: A controller is someone that directs how and when events happen. They tend to be the ones that shape the fields with DOT effects, call allies, or redirect damage. I would say the upcoming Chronomancers and current Summoner are the current best examples.
AOE: Area of Effect
DOT: Damage over Time
Any more questions anyone?
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Edge: Final Master... official Tome 4 (thread) necromancer.
Zonk: I'd rather be sick than on fire! :D
Final Master's Guide to the Arena
Edge: Final Master... official Tome 4 (thread) necromancer.
Zonk: I'd rather be sick than on fire! :D
Re: How about some flavor players?
Mages have a lot of control as well with Conveyance, Divination, Phantasm, Temporal, and Earth being the schools that lend the most to that sort of playstyle.
Reavers and Shadowblades also offer a lot of control with the former doing it through heavy debuffs and the later having access to all of the Mages good control schools minus earth but excellent disables.
Reavers and Shadowblades also offer a lot of control with the former doing it through heavy debuffs and the later having access to all of the Mages good control schools minus earth but excellent disables.
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- Wyrmic
- Posts: 217
- Joined: Mon Oct 30, 2006 1:47 am
Re: How about some flavor players?
dunedain are one of my favorites, for flavor, stats, and talent. i want to see more races implemented soon... there should be at least 3-5 subraces per race to chose from...1)
What is your favorite race? Why? Flavor, stats, talent?
rogue's are usually my favorites in rogue-likes. the mix of melee, stealth, and magic device abilities for me epitomizes rogue-like gaming. of course, i almost never win with rogues (usually winning with tank or mage classes, depending on the *band).2)
What is your favorite class archtype in T4? Tank, Archer, AOE expert, Mage, Rogue, Hybrid, Controller? How well do you think these are represented so far?
3)
What is your favorite class? Why? Flavor, stats, talents?
im really enjoying the cursed class lately, too (although maybe its name should be changed to 'accursed', perhaps?)
rogues need magic device and trapping trees. wyrmics need another tree or two, or something. haven't played alchemists for a while, but they felt very weird, kind of like two separate classes to me.4)
Are there any changes you would make to the stat distributions of your favorite race/class? How about changes in talent tree options and starting talents? Do you find that your class is lacking in something that it really needs to pull it together? If so, what is it?
mages need a bit of nerfing, imo, to feel and play more like mages. i would suggest a very high mana penalty for fatigue from wearing heavy armors, and nerfing feather wind and stone skin's bonuses. mages should not have greater defensive capacities than warriors.
its pretty easy to get addicted to anything that stuns. and i love any talent that increases defensive capabilities...5)
Are there any talents that you really really like? What do you like about them over the others? Do you think other classes would benefit from this talent?
i like most of the zones. i know the 'infinite dungeon' is in the works, but i still would like to see some more 'classic' roguelike dungeon layouts, and more non-persistent dungeons. i would also like to see certain dungeons resolve themselves in a more 'logical' fashion - i hate the weird deadends and inaccessible regions in places like the elven ruins or moria. it doesn't simulate the feeling of scattered ruinous tunnels, it just comes across as incomplete or sloppy game design.6)
There is now a large variety of zones, along with some side zones. Are there any that you really really enjoy to play? Is it the size, layout, color, npc distribution?
7)
What general idea of a zone do you think would be a good addition to the game? Would it have any particular theme?
desert and ice dungeons would be fun.
the master is fun. bosses in general are well thought out and designed.
We have a moderately large variety of npcs now as well. Not nearly as many as previous tome incarnations or angband, but there is still well over 100. Of these, what type/subtype do you enjoy the most? Do you like any particular idea of a npc or boss? What do you think of them leveling and especially being as we are instead of completely pregenerated mobs?
would like to see more varieties of dragons, particularly at the high end. as others have suggested, there need to be more 'oh sh*t' monsters, particularly towards the end of the game. i'm probably alone on this one, but i actually miss hounds. there should occasionally be some enemies that are 'always alert', chasing you around a level, not often but once or twice in a dungeon would spice things up. would be nice to have more generic class humans, not just rogues. more enemy types that come in themed packs.9)
Do you have any ideas for more npcs?
i don't play with music, sfx, or graphics. i think they get in the way of gaming, and its much more confusing for me to try to identify monsters on the basis of graphics - an orc is an 'o', period10)
Do you enjoy the music of Tome? This is the first rogue-like I've encountered that came with music.
11)
How about the sound effects? Do you think there should be more?
12)
And the graphics that the forum members are doing? How many of you play with the graphics on, and how do you like them?

i actually wouldn't mind an option to turn off the on-screen animations (maybe there is one already, i haven't checked lately) to help speed things up (the game is very slow for me at times).
that said, the tiles look like they are coming along really well.
the ui is coming along well but still needs work. the shop menus only display one digit of the prices for me, and they load awfully slowly.13)
How is the UI coming along to you? Does it feel as polished as it can be currently? Do you play with only the mouse, keyboard, or do you use both? If you use a combination of both, what do you use the mouse for and what do you use the keyboard for?
i play with the mouse and keyboard, leaning more towards the keyboard. mouse is mostly just for navigating large spaces.
angband since the mid/late 90's, started playing ToME 2 in 02/03. played the first couple te4 betas decided i'd wait until the game was a little more complete, came back in beta 8, and have played at least a couple fairly serious games per beta since.14)
How long have you been playing?
i finished all the available prides in beta 8 with a skeleton fighter. haven't had a character back east since.15)
How far have you gotten in the game?
still missing ghoul, pyro/cryo, and reaver.16)
How many classes have you unlocked?
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- Spiderkin
- Posts: 480
- Joined: Mon Jul 26, 2004 5:20 am
- Location: Blighty
Re: How about some flavor players?
I know I complained about them before, but in truth I wasn't really talking about the peril, but the monotony. There were so many dang types and they came in such large groups that it felt like 50% of the monsters you ran into were hounds. I'm all for hounds coming back as long as they don't overrun the place - nothing sends shivers up your spine like a pile of cyan Zs, after all.teachu2die wrote:i'm probably alone on this one, but i actually miss hounds.
Re: How about some flavor players?

Release the hounds.
Re: How about some flavor players?
Agreed on this too. Hounds were a challenging opponent in tome 2, but they were way too common.Burb Lulls wrote:I know I complained about them before, but in truth I wasn't really talking about the peril, but the monotony. There were so many dang types and they came in such large groups that it felt like 50% of the monsters you ran into were hounds. I'm all for hounds coming back as long as they don't overrun the place - nothing sends shivers up your spine like a pile of cyan Zs, after all.teachu2die wrote:i'm probably alone on this one, but i actually miss hounds.
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- Wyrmic
- Posts: 217
- Joined: Mon Oct 30, 2006 1:47 am
Re: How about some flavor players?
oh yeah, i wouldn't assert that hounds should be present in the numbers they were in tome2, where ts almost expected that you have a genocide junkart to handle hounds in deep angband. just once every couple of dungeon levels, something popping up thats always alert and kind of nasty.
in fact, i actually think even vanilla has increased the rarity and decreased the pack size of hounds recently.
in fact, i actually think even vanilla has increased the rarity and decreased the pack size of hounds recently.
Re: How about some flavor players?
This is not the spoilers section so I will not go into detail, but an ever-alert monster (or something very close) already exists and I found it frequently in Tol Falas.
<DarkGod> lets say it's intended
Re: How about some flavor players?
I forgot to mention this when I responded earlier.
I would really like for the UI to let me scroll talents. The G and M menu both need the ability to handle two scroll bars, one for the talents themselves and one for the rest. There's still several talents in the game that I have to check Notepad++ to read the full descriptions of.
I would really like for the UI to let me scroll talents. The G and M menu both need the ability to handle two scroll bars, one for the talents themselves and one for the rest. There's still several talents in the game that I have to check Notepad++ to read the full descriptions of.
Re: How about some flavor players?
This seems as good a place to make a first post as any so....
Quote:
1)
What is your favorite race? Why? Flavor, stats, talent?
I haven't played much (yet) so I haven't unlocked anything. Of the Stock races.... probably Dwarves for the Con boost and the flavor. (I just love little mean guys with axes)
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2)
What is your favorite class archtype in T4? Tank, Archer, AOE expert, Mage, Rogue, Hybrid, Controller? How well do you think these are represented so far?
Rogue. It's always rogue. In any roguelike. Though they also seem to be the worst class in every roguelike for reasons that utterly elude me, as no class is more suited for dungeon delving solo. In T4 I think they could shape up to be the best representation I've seen with some more work. It's headed in the right direction, just keep it up.
3)
What is your favorite class? Why? Flavor, stats, talents?
Again Rogue. They SHOULD have the ability to deal with or evade any situation given some thought, just not as mercilessly as a class who is suited to it. In T4 I'd say that the abilities that give daggers real combat potential are probably highest on my list. I'm of the opinion most RPG designers have no concept of just how deadly a knife really is even to an armored target. I also like the uses of Cunning, and the various stun and tactical abilities.
Quote:
4)
Are there any changes you would make to the stat distributions of your favorite race/class? How about changes in talent tree options and starting talents? Do you find that your class is lacking in something that it really needs to pull it together? If so, what is it?
Rogues need some trap laying/creation talents. Maybe some others (besides stealth) to throw monsters off the scent when chased, to gain room to set up said traps. I also think (for all classes) starting in Bree with enough gold to sell some things and swap out some basic equipment for different styles of play would be nice. Archers/Slingers REALLY need a dagger at start. (I'm sure it's doable without it but ammo creation is just NOT working at all for me, hasn't succeeded once.)
Quote:
5)
Are there any talents that you really really like? What do you like about them over the others? Do you think other classes would benefit from this talent?
Yes, Disengage! Probably one of the coolest skills I've seen in a roguelike. I'm big on non-magic characters but their biggest weakness compared to nukers is escaping. Most roguelikes when you enter combat and without magic; it's to the bitter end. (unless you make it to the stairs) I think Rogues would benefit from, and should have this talent at start. It would lose usefulness once HIPS was gained but it would allow a different approach which is the essence of the rogue.
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6)
There is now a large variety of zones, along with some side zones. Are there any that you really really enjoy to play? Is it the size, layout, color, npc distribution?
I've yet to see a great number of them, but the general layout & size of the ones I have is very nice.
7)
What general idea of a zone do you think would be a good addition to the game? Would it have any particular theme?
I'd like to see a hidden Epyx Rogue dungeon zone just for the heck of it. (basic 3x3 layout etc) The ship battles above sound fun. I'll have to play more to see what's already there zone-wise to comment further. I like the idea of themed rooms in dungeons (library, storeroom, armory, etc) with corresponding loot and monster generation where appropriate.
Quote:

We have a moderately large variety of npcs now as well. Not nearly as many as previous tome incarnations or angband, but there is still well over 100. Of these, what type/subtype do you enjoy the most? Do you like any particular idea of a npc or boss? What do you think of them leveling and especially being as we are instead of completely pregenerated mobs?
I don't care for the idea of leveled snakes, ants, rats, etc. That's one feature of roguelikes that irritates me to no end is the whole overuse of the Monty Python Rabbit of Doom gag. Seriously trained warriors getting toasted by a, one, singular, lone rat is just..... yeah.
Most of the other mobs seem pretty good. I've been clubbed by quite a few out-of-depth monsters but I'm getting a feel for them now. (I d*mn sure learned not to open sealed doors)
Quote:
9)
Do you have any ideas for more npcs?
I've yet to determine from play if the mobs (with hands) carrying weapons etc are actually using them, but that's a feature I like when it's done well. Being an old-school table-top player I was terrified by all the molds till I realized they weren't doing anything, I expected Stat dmg.
Quote:
10)
Do you enjoy the music of Tome? This is the first rogue-like I've encountered that came with music.
I've actually seen several that had music, though I've not heard T4's yet. (dial-up) When it's done well I think it adds remarkably to the game.
One suggestion I would make is to ditch the heavy compressed audio format and go with some MOD music. There's tons of royalty free music out there in MOD format that's really good for games of all genres. The music for the original Bejeweled or UT99 are great examples of how good MOD can be. The best thing about it however is size. You can get a 30 minute non-looped track that's around 400k, this means you can afford to pack lots of different tunes for different areas, encounters, situations etc into the game without reaching DVD size just for music.
11)
How about the sound effects? Do you think there should be more?
Yes absolutely. They make a great addition to roguelikes as they can draw attention to those situations that get missed sometimes in the console. It also helps new players (even those just new to this roguelike) who may not realize the severity of some messages.
12)
And the graphics that the forum members are doing? How many of you play with the graphics on, and how do you like them?
I really prefer ASCII for the most part, but the ASCII in T4 is..... well I've seen better. It could use some tweaking to fit the new UI in particular. From what I've seen the graphics are good for terrain, I don't care much for the Mob graphics, and I doubt I ever will in any roguelike. A 32x32 sprite,no matter how well done, just can't conjure the fear in my mind that a D does. I think a nice option that wouldn't be too hard to implement since it's already somewhat there as a placeholder would be to allow players to have the choice of selecting by menu which broad types to use tiles or ASCII for. For example Tile terrain and effects with ASCII for monsters and Items.
Quote:
13)
How is the UI coming along to you? Does it feel as polished as it can be currently? Do you play with only the mouse, keyboard, or do you use both? If you use a combination of both, what do you use the mouse for and what do you use the keyboard for?
I think the UI is headed in a good direction; in it's appeal to new roguelike players especially. There are of course still bugs, in particular with tooltips refusing to display at times. (I'm particularly thinking of the lower right box where talents are which shows the talents tooltip even when you're on the monster pane) That's to be expected though, for a beta it's great.
I like the overall feel and use. Some things are still better suited to keyboard, some to mouse but I believe it's relatively easily usable with either. Mouse and keyboard are about equal for movement with the keyboard winning by a slight margin due to pathing wanting to walk me directly over traps etc when I use the mouse. Menus are easier with the mouse. I would like to point a helpful finger towards Crawl's auto-travel/explore system for a very nice UI in that regard.
I also really like the floaty texts, they're a nice touch for important messages.
Quote:
14)
How long have you been playing?
Um... since 198....? Not sure, whenever I got my first C64. Rogue, fargoal, DND, hack, MAG, nethack (though I despise it), dungeon hack, larn, omega, moria (though only briefly). Those held me into the windows era then ADOM, crawl, gear head and many others.
Currently I frequently play rogue (still), frozen depths, fargoal remake, brogue, crawl ss, decker, Incursion, IVAN, nlarn, and warlock of firetop mtn the most. Though I try most new roguelikes I see. Some of the 7DRLs are fantastic.
I've always stayed away from *bands though, ever since moria. I'd try new ones now and again but they just felt... well I know this probably doesn't sit well with *band fans but too adom/nethackish to me. I always felt like If I didn't have full set of spoilers memorized and willing to grind away for hours I was doomed. To me that's just no fun. I like to at least have a shot at just figuring the game out by playing; without source diving to understand what the heck was going on.
I'm happy to say that T4 (which I've only tried the current beta) looks like it might finally be the game to draw me in to the *band world. I've always felt it's rich depth in scope and quests was appealing, and now it finally appears to be moving toward my end of the roguelike spectrum. My thanks to you DG for all your hard work.
Quote:
15)
How far have you gotten in the game?
Not very at all. Keep getting slaughtered at low (sub 10th) levels. I'm getting a little further each time though, and I'm able to learn from my mistakes from the game itself not from spoilers. To me that marks a good roguelike. The only thing I cannot get the hang of is ammo creation, am I supposed to be standing on something specific or what?
Quote:
16)
How many classes have you unlocked?
not a one....yet.
--------------------------------
I'm sure a lot of my suggestions are a lack of understanding, due to newness to the game. Still though a new players first impressions are what make them keep playing or give up a game so maybe some of them will be helpful. In regards to that, the tutorial...... Am I really expected to live through that mob of snakes and that skeleton mage; or is that one of those Final Fantasy guaranteed death fights?
Quote:
1)
What is your favorite race? Why? Flavor, stats, talent?
I haven't played much (yet) so I haven't unlocked anything. Of the Stock races.... probably Dwarves for the Con boost and the flavor. (I just love little mean guys with axes)
Quote:
2)
What is your favorite class archtype in T4? Tank, Archer, AOE expert, Mage, Rogue, Hybrid, Controller? How well do you think these are represented so far?
Rogue. It's always rogue. In any roguelike. Though they also seem to be the worst class in every roguelike for reasons that utterly elude me, as no class is more suited for dungeon delving solo. In T4 I think they could shape up to be the best representation I've seen with some more work. It's headed in the right direction, just keep it up.
3)
What is your favorite class? Why? Flavor, stats, talents?
Again Rogue. They SHOULD have the ability to deal with or evade any situation given some thought, just not as mercilessly as a class who is suited to it. In T4 I'd say that the abilities that give daggers real combat potential are probably highest on my list. I'm of the opinion most RPG designers have no concept of just how deadly a knife really is even to an armored target. I also like the uses of Cunning, and the various stun and tactical abilities.
Quote:
4)
Are there any changes you would make to the stat distributions of your favorite race/class? How about changes in talent tree options and starting talents? Do you find that your class is lacking in something that it really needs to pull it together? If so, what is it?
Rogues need some trap laying/creation talents. Maybe some others (besides stealth) to throw monsters off the scent when chased, to gain room to set up said traps. I also think (for all classes) starting in Bree with enough gold to sell some things and swap out some basic equipment for different styles of play would be nice. Archers/Slingers REALLY need a dagger at start. (I'm sure it's doable without it but ammo creation is just NOT working at all for me, hasn't succeeded once.)
Quote:
5)
Are there any talents that you really really like? What do you like about them over the others? Do you think other classes would benefit from this talent?
Yes, Disengage! Probably one of the coolest skills I've seen in a roguelike. I'm big on non-magic characters but their biggest weakness compared to nukers is escaping. Most roguelikes when you enter combat and without magic; it's to the bitter end. (unless you make it to the stairs) I think Rogues would benefit from, and should have this talent at start. It would lose usefulness once HIPS was gained but it would allow a different approach which is the essence of the rogue.
Quote:
6)
There is now a large variety of zones, along with some side zones. Are there any that you really really enjoy to play? Is it the size, layout, color, npc distribution?
I've yet to see a great number of them, but the general layout & size of the ones I have is very nice.
7)
What general idea of a zone do you think would be a good addition to the game? Would it have any particular theme?
I'd like to see a hidden Epyx Rogue dungeon zone just for the heck of it. (basic 3x3 layout etc) The ship battles above sound fun. I'll have to play more to see what's already there zone-wise to comment further. I like the idea of themed rooms in dungeons (library, storeroom, armory, etc) with corresponding loot and monster generation where appropriate.
Quote:

We have a moderately large variety of npcs now as well. Not nearly as many as previous tome incarnations or angband, but there is still well over 100. Of these, what type/subtype do you enjoy the most? Do you like any particular idea of a npc or boss? What do you think of them leveling and especially being as we are instead of completely pregenerated mobs?
I don't care for the idea of leveled snakes, ants, rats, etc. That's one feature of roguelikes that irritates me to no end is the whole overuse of the Monty Python Rabbit of Doom gag. Seriously trained warriors getting toasted by a, one, singular, lone rat is just..... yeah.
Most of the other mobs seem pretty good. I've been clubbed by quite a few out-of-depth monsters but I'm getting a feel for them now. (I d*mn sure learned not to open sealed doors)
Quote:
9)
Do you have any ideas for more npcs?
I've yet to determine from play if the mobs (with hands) carrying weapons etc are actually using them, but that's a feature I like when it's done well. Being an old-school table-top player I was terrified by all the molds till I realized they weren't doing anything, I expected Stat dmg.
Quote:
10)
Do you enjoy the music of Tome? This is the first rogue-like I've encountered that came with music.
I've actually seen several that had music, though I've not heard T4's yet. (dial-up) When it's done well I think it adds remarkably to the game.
One suggestion I would make is to ditch the heavy compressed audio format and go with some MOD music. There's tons of royalty free music out there in MOD format that's really good for games of all genres. The music for the original Bejeweled or UT99 are great examples of how good MOD can be. The best thing about it however is size. You can get a 30 minute non-looped track that's around 400k, this means you can afford to pack lots of different tunes for different areas, encounters, situations etc into the game without reaching DVD size just for music.
11)
How about the sound effects? Do you think there should be more?
Yes absolutely. They make a great addition to roguelikes as they can draw attention to those situations that get missed sometimes in the console. It also helps new players (even those just new to this roguelike) who may not realize the severity of some messages.
12)
And the graphics that the forum members are doing? How many of you play with the graphics on, and how do you like them?
I really prefer ASCII for the most part, but the ASCII in T4 is..... well I've seen better. It could use some tweaking to fit the new UI in particular. From what I've seen the graphics are good for terrain, I don't care much for the Mob graphics, and I doubt I ever will in any roguelike. A 32x32 sprite,no matter how well done, just can't conjure the fear in my mind that a D does. I think a nice option that wouldn't be too hard to implement since it's already somewhat there as a placeholder would be to allow players to have the choice of selecting by menu which broad types to use tiles or ASCII for. For example Tile terrain and effects with ASCII for monsters and Items.
Quote:
13)
How is the UI coming along to you? Does it feel as polished as it can be currently? Do you play with only the mouse, keyboard, or do you use both? If you use a combination of both, what do you use the mouse for and what do you use the keyboard for?
I think the UI is headed in a good direction; in it's appeal to new roguelike players especially. There are of course still bugs, in particular with tooltips refusing to display at times. (I'm particularly thinking of the lower right box where talents are which shows the talents tooltip even when you're on the monster pane) That's to be expected though, for a beta it's great.
I like the overall feel and use. Some things are still better suited to keyboard, some to mouse but I believe it's relatively easily usable with either. Mouse and keyboard are about equal for movement with the keyboard winning by a slight margin due to pathing wanting to walk me directly over traps etc when I use the mouse. Menus are easier with the mouse. I would like to point a helpful finger towards Crawl's auto-travel/explore system for a very nice UI in that regard.
I also really like the floaty texts, they're a nice touch for important messages.
Quote:
14)
How long have you been playing?
Um... since 198....? Not sure, whenever I got my first C64. Rogue, fargoal, DND, hack, MAG, nethack (though I despise it), dungeon hack, larn, omega, moria (though only briefly). Those held me into the windows era then ADOM, crawl, gear head and many others.
Currently I frequently play rogue (still), frozen depths, fargoal remake, brogue, crawl ss, decker, Incursion, IVAN, nlarn, and warlock of firetop mtn the most. Though I try most new roguelikes I see. Some of the 7DRLs are fantastic.
I've always stayed away from *bands though, ever since moria. I'd try new ones now and again but they just felt... well I know this probably doesn't sit well with *band fans but too adom/nethackish to me. I always felt like If I didn't have full set of spoilers memorized and willing to grind away for hours I was doomed. To me that's just no fun. I like to at least have a shot at just figuring the game out by playing; without source diving to understand what the heck was going on.
I'm happy to say that T4 (which I've only tried the current beta) looks like it might finally be the game to draw me in to the *band world. I've always felt it's rich depth in scope and quests was appealing, and now it finally appears to be moving toward my end of the roguelike spectrum. My thanks to you DG for all your hard work.
Quote:
15)
How far have you gotten in the game?
Not very at all. Keep getting slaughtered at low (sub 10th) levels. I'm getting a little further each time though, and I'm able to learn from my mistakes from the game itself not from spoilers. To me that marks a good roguelike. The only thing I cannot get the hang of is ammo creation, am I supposed to be standing on something specific or what?
Quote:
16)
How many classes have you unlocked?
not a one....yet.
--------------------------------
I'm sure a lot of my suggestions are a lack of understanding, due to newness to the game. Still though a new players first impressions are what make them keep playing or give up a game so maybe some of them will be helpful. In regards to that, the tutorial...... Am I really expected to live through that mob of snakes and that skeleton mage; or is that one of those Final Fantasy guaranteed death fights?
Re: How about some flavor players?
Thanks for your comments!
You'll like to know that next beta is bringing traps to rogues maybe ?
For music: we have tried mods and it just does ot sound good enough. The musics in ToME are really high quality. BTW if you are on dialup download them once, you can then just copy them to the next beta.
I am not sure I understand what you mean about the ascii mode? is it because they are rendered in squares ?
As for the tutorial, well the snake pit is supposed to be a bit of a challenge but should be easily doable with all the potions you get before coming to it and the stun talent.
Was it not ?
PS: I am afraid this wont draw you to *bands, ToME is not really a band at all
You'll like to know that next beta is bringing traps to rogues maybe ?

For music: we have tried mods and it just does ot sound good enough. The musics in ToME are really high quality. BTW if you are on dialup download them once, you can then just copy them to the next beta.
I am not sure I understand what you mean about the ascii mode? is it because they are rendered in squares ?
As for the tutorial, well the snake pit is supposed to be a bit of a challenge but should be easily doable with all the potions you get before coming to it and the stun talent.
Was it not ?
PS: I am afraid this wont draw you to *bands, ToME is not really a band at all

[tome] joylove: You can't just release an expansion like one would release a Kraken XD
--
[tome] phantomfrettchen: your ability not to tease anyone is simply stunning
--
[tome] phantomfrettchen: your ability not to tease anyone is simply stunning

Re: How about some flavor players?
Quote: Thanks for your comments!
You'll like to know that next beta is bringing traps to rogues maybe ?
Sweet, look forward to it.
Quote:
For music: we have tried mods and it just does ot sound good enough. The musics in ToME are really high quality.
I understand, a lot of people feel that way about MOD. Personally I've found MOD sound quality has more to do with the decoder used than the format itself. With a good decoder program they equal WAV, get a bad one and it's worse than midi from a sound blaster. I see compressed audio as kind of the PDF of the music world. Its guaranteed to sound the same, but its bloated as a result. It's hard to find good decoder libraries that aren't commercial though, and expensive at that. I'd kind of forgotten about that when I posted.
Quote:
BTW if you are on dialup download them once, you can then just copy them to the next beta.
Cool. I was hoping that would work, just hadn't gotten to downloading it yet. Bigger files get shoved to the bottom of the queue and I wanted to try this out so I'm just using the no music till the full one gets retrieved.
Quote:
I am not sure I understand what you mean about the ascii mode? is it because they are rendered in squares ?
I'm really not sure how to word it, that's why I didn't go into detail above, let's see... the characters seem, squished I guess is the best word. Especially the terrain characters. I wouldn't take it too seriously though. I'm REALLY over-critical of this new fangled non terminal ASCII, spent way too much time on console based systems and can't wrap my mind around it. Over all I think it's better than most of it I've seen. In particular the mixed ASCII with the tile terrain pieces gives this cool blend of old and new, I really like. (Probably why when the mobs that do have graphics show up I don't like them.)
Quote:
As for the tutorial, well the snake pit is supposed to be a bit of a challenge but should be easily doable with all the potions you get before coming to it and the stun talent.
Was it not ?
Actually it thrashed me, died three times on the snakes and twice on the mage IIRC. All tucked back in my tunnel, used my potions and talents when they recharged etc, but there was this one ... Rattlesnake maybe. I think it was OOD took forever to kill, rest were easy. The mage just nuked me as soon as it got LOS( right after the tutorial box dropped), two shots dead. First took me down from full to around 20% or so, no potions left as I used them on that nasty snake, one more step back toward cover, dead. Next time I caught him at a corner. I'll run through it a few more times and see if it happens again and let you know.
Quote:
PS: I am afraid this wont draw you to *bands, ToME is not really a band at all
Well it's band in all the ways that made me want to like Angband. It's Middle Earth, quests, big world map, lot's of locations, etc. All the rest is what kept me from playing *bands in the first place so I'd say it's the perfect band.
You'll like to know that next beta is bringing traps to rogues maybe ?

Sweet, look forward to it.
Quote:
For music: we have tried mods and it just does ot sound good enough. The musics in ToME are really high quality.
I understand, a lot of people feel that way about MOD. Personally I've found MOD sound quality has more to do with the decoder used than the format itself. With a good decoder program they equal WAV, get a bad one and it's worse than midi from a sound blaster. I see compressed audio as kind of the PDF of the music world. Its guaranteed to sound the same, but its bloated as a result. It's hard to find good decoder libraries that aren't commercial though, and expensive at that. I'd kind of forgotten about that when I posted.
Quote:
BTW if you are on dialup download them once, you can then just copy them to the next beta.
Cool. I was hoping that would work, just hadn't gotten to downloading it yet. Bigger files get shoved to the bottom of the queue and I wanted to try this out so I'm just using the no music till the full one gets retrieved.
Quote:
I am not sure I understand what you mean about the ascii mode? is it because they are rendered in squares ?
I'm really not sure how to word it, that's why I didn't go into detail above, let's see... the characters seem, squished I guess is the best word. Especially the terrain characters. I wouldn't take it too seriously though. I'm REALLY over-critical of this new fangled non terminal ASCII, spent way too much time on console based systems and can't wrap my mind around it. Over all I think it's better than most of it I've seen. In particular the mixed ASCII with the tile terrain pieces gives this cool blend of old and new, I really like. (Probably why when the mobs that do have graphics show up I don't like them.)
Quote:
As for the tutorial, well the snake pit is supposed to be a bit of a challenge but should be easily doable with all the potions you get before coming to it and the stun talent.
Was it not ?
Actually it thrashed me, died three times on the snakes and twice on the mage IIRC. All tucked back in my tunnel, used my potions and talents when they recharged etc, but there was this one ... Rattlesnake maybe. I think it was OOD took forever to kill, rest were easy. The mage just nuked me as soon as it got LOS( right after the tutorial box dropped), two shots dead. First took me down from full to around 20% or so, no potions left as I used them on that nasty snake, one more step back toward cover, dead. Next time I caught him at a corner. I'll run through it a few more times and see if it happens again and let you know.
Quote:
PS: I am afraid this wont draw you to *bands, ToME is not really a band at all

Well it's band in all the ways that made me want to like Angband. It's Middle Earth, quests, big world map, lot's of locations, etc. All the rest is what kept me from playing *bands in the first place so I'd say it's the perfect band.
-
- Thalore
- Posts: 145
- Joined: Tue Jan 10, 2006 6:57 pm
Re: How about some flavor players?
Final Master wrote:I thought it might be interesting to run a bit of a questionnaire now that we are pretty close to a finished game. So, anyone interested in filling this out partially or completely please feel free. I'm always interested in peoples' opinions and how to design things.
To everyone:
1)
What is your favorite race? Why? Flavor, stats, talent?
I think the beauty of the game is I really don't have a favorite. There's lots of pairing for races to classes for optimization. If I had to pick I'd take Duandan as their racial ability is useful across the board.
2)
What is your favorite class archtype in T4? Tank, Archer, AOE expert, Mage, Rogue, Hybrid, Controller? How well do you think these are represented so far?
Still playing with them, but I have to say the Rogue archetypes are my faves.
3)
What is your favorite class? Why? Flavor, stats, talents?
Alchemists - Golems and lobbing bombs. Need I say more? Shadowblades - really great take on mixing magic and stabbiness. Surprisingly sturdy - my first char to level 10 was a Shadowblade
4)
Are there any changes you would make to the stat distributions of your favorite race/class? How about changes in talent tree options and starting talents? Do you find that your class is lacking in something that it really needs to pull it together? If so, what is it?
No thoughts here.
5)
Are there any talents that you really really like? What do you like about them over the others? Do you think other classes would benefit from this talent?
I would like to see rush tweaked a bit for warriors. The class is really dependent on it to be combat effective. Wondering if you would consider either scaling cool down time with more levels in the skill, or reducing the general cooldown time, but increasing the stamina cost so you still can't spam it.
6)
There is now a large variety of zones, along with some side zones. Are there any that you really really enjoy to play? Is it the size, layout, color, npc distribution?
God help me the SW lair is just crazy fun. Would love to see some other dynamic dungeon ideas as well.
7)
What general idea of a zone do you think would be a good addition to the game? Would it have any particular theme?
Gollum's Cave. It could be a short quest for low-mid level, with a boss at the end in the form of a nasty beastie that has since inhabited the cave. The monsters that inhabit the cave are natural creatures (bears, bees, wolves), but have been twisted and corrupted by the latent residual power of the one ring that had stayed there so many years.
We have a moderately large variety of npcs now as well. Not nearly as many as previous tome incarnations or angband, but there is still well over 100. Of these, what type/subtype do you enjoy the most? Do you like any particular idea of a npc or boss? What do you think of them leveling and especially being as we are instead of completely pregenerated mobs?
I've only seen the two towns / lumberjack villiage / wandering mage. I think i need to get past halfway to comment here.
9)
Do you have any ideas for more npcs?
10)
Do you enjoy the music of Tome? This is the first rogue-like I've encountered that came with music.
haven't tried it. Been listening to my own music while playing. Would be interesting to be able to target a directory where you can select MP3's to play.
11)
How about the sound effects? Do you think there should be more?
Always! Splatter sounds / death sounds for bosses / etc.
12)
And the graphics that the forum members are doing? How many of you play with the graphics on, and how do you like them?
I play with graphics on, and love them. It's always really cool to see the new ones with every release.
13)
How is the UI coming along to you? Does it feel as polished as it can be currently? Do you play with only the mouse, keyboard, or do you use both? If you use a combination of both, what do you use the mouse for and what do you use the keyboard for?
I love the UI. The latest release made it more useable. I play with a combination of keyboard and mouse. I use mouse for things like selecting items from my pack when 'u'sing them. I also tend to use the mouse for talents off the main first page of options.
14)
How long have you been playing?
Played 2.X a lot, been playing 4 since about beta 9 or so
15)
How far have you gotten in the game?
got to mid 20's with a berserker once. Have yet to get to the master.
16)
How many classes have you unlocked?
archmage,
Thanks for reading and replying.
FM
Edit: As per Grey's suggestion, I've added a few more questions and numbered them for ease of answering. Thanks for everyone that is participating!
Re: How about some flavor players?
hought it might be interesting to run a bit of a questionnaire now that we are pretty close to a finished game. So, anyone interested in filling this out partially or completely please feel free. I'm always interested in peoples' opinions and how to design things.
To everyone:
1)
What is your favorite race? Why? Flavor, stats, talent?
Was dwarf because the stat bonuses worked the best with the classes I liked, but I've switched too Bree Men. The quick leveling + extra spell school has been good fun.
2)
What is your favorite class archtype in T4? Tank, Archer, AOE expert, Mage, Rogue, Hybrid, Controller? How well do you think these are represented so far?
Archer. Good representation generally, though more "priest"-like classes might be good.
3)
What is your favorite class? Why? Flavor, stats, talents?
Arcane Blades (because they're interesting and flexible) and Wyrmics (because they're relatively underplayed)
4)
Are there any changes you would make to the stat distributions of your favorite race/class? How about changes in talent tree options and starting talents? Do you find that your class is lacking in something that it really needs to pull it together? If so, what is it?
I think races are good now, though honestly the ghoul speed penalty might be too harsh.
5)
Are there any talents that you really really like? What do you like about them over the others? Do you think other classes would benefit from this talent?
I've loved the concept of Ammo Creation since 2.x and still love it now.
6)
There is now a large variety of zones, along with some side zones. Are there any that you really really enjoy to play? Is it the size, layout, color, npc distribution?
Old Forest is fun because it basically says "Hi, underpowered Wyrmic. have 8-10 free levels". The "interesting" ones are fun. Doing the Underwater Cave without water breathing was fun.
7)
What general idea of a zone do you think would be a good addition to the game? Would it have any particular theme?
We have a moderately large variety of npcs now as well. Not nearly as many as previous tome incarnations or angband, but there is still well over 100. Of these, what type/subtype do you enjoy the most? Do you like any particular idea of a npc or boss? What do you think of them leveling and especially being as we are instead of completely pregenerated mobs?
9)
Do you have any ideas for more npcs?
10)
Do you enjoy the music of Tome? This is the first rogue-like I've encountered that came with music.
It comes and goes for me. Sometimes I like the music, sometimes I get tired of it.
11)
How about the sound effects? Do you think there should be more?
12)
And the graphics that the forum members are doing? How many of you play with the graphics on, and how do you like them?
I've started using graphics a bit and I like it well enough.
13)
How is the UI coming along to you? Does it feel as polished as it can be currently? Do you play with only the mouse, keyboard, or do you use both? If you use a combination of both, what do you use the mouse for and what do you use the keyboard for?
Mostly keyboard play. UI has come a long, long way.
14)
How long have you been playing?
2.x since 2005? 4.x since, um, July maybe?
15)
How far have you gotten in the game?
Keep dying in the Prides.
16)
How many classes have you unlocked?
Hmm. 6? Haven't unlocked Reaver, Pyromancer or Cryomancer.
To everyone:
1)
What is your favorite race? Why? Flavor, stats, talent?
Was dwarf because the stat bonuses worked the best with the classes I liked, but I've switched too Bree Men. The quick leveling + extra spell school has been good fun.
2)
What is your favorite class archtype in T4? Tank, Archer, AOE expert, Mage, Rogue, Hybrid, Controller? How well do you think these are represented so far?
Archer. Good representation generally, though more "priest"-like classes might be good.
3)
What is your favorite class? Why? Flavor, stats, talents?
Arcane Blades (because they're interesting and flexible) and Wyrmics (because they're relatively underplayed)
4)
Are there any changes you would make to the stat distributions of your favorite race/class? How about changes in talent tree options and starting talents? Do you find that your class is lacking in something that it really needs to pull it together? If so, what is it?
I think races are good now, though honestly the ghoul speed penalty might be too harsh.
5)
Are there any talents that you really really like? What do you like about them over the others? Do you think other classes would benefit from this talent?
I've loved the concept of Ammo Creation since 2.x and still love it now.
6)
There is now a large variety of zones, along with some side zones. Are there any that you really really enjoy to play? Is it the size, layout, color, npc distribution?
Old Forest is fun because it basically says "Hi, underpowered Wyrmic. have 8-10 free levels". The "interesting" ones are fun. Doing the Underwater Cave without water breathing was fun.
7)
What general idea of a zone do you think would be a good addition to the game? Would it have any particular theme?
We have a moderately large variety of npcs now as well. Not nearly as many as previous tome incarnations or angband, but there is still well over 100. Of these, what type/subtype do you enjoy the most? Do you like any particular idea of a npc or boss? What do you think of them leveling and especially being as we are instead of completely pregenerated mobs?
9)
Do you have any ideas for more npcs?
10)
Do you enjoy the music of Tome? This is the first rogue-like I've encountered that came with music.
It comes and goes for me. Sometimes I like the music, sometimes I get tired of it.
11)
How about the sound effects? Do you think there should be more?
12)
And the graphics that the forum members are doing? How many of you play with the graphics on, and how do you like them?
I've started using graphics a bit and I like it well enough.
13)
How is the UI coming along to you? Does it feel as polished as it can be currently? Do you play with only the mouse, keyboard, or do you use both? If you use a combination of both, what do you use the mouse for and what do you use the keyboard for?
Mostly keyboard play. UI has come a long, long way.
14)
How long have you been playing?
2.x since 2005? 4.x since, um, July maybe?
15)
How far have you gotten in the game?
Keep dying in the Prides.
16)
How many classes have you unlocked?
Hmm. 6? Haven't unlocked Reaver, Pyromancer or Cryomancer.