adjusting metals

[Shoob]

for weapons:
- reduce the damage gained for higher levels of metals. (this is to eliminate the mithril cheese, I am thinking change mithril to 2x iron damage, with other stuff adjusted accordingly)
- adjust/remove stat requirements for most weapons. (basically everything is same or close to the same as base (iron), galvorn could require +(encumbrance) str, or +5 or something)

for armor:
- adjust fatigue ratings (galvorn is really the only heavy metal, so make it have a higher fatigue, everything else should be close to iron. leather stuff adjusted too)
- adjust str requirement (like weapons, only +10 instead for galvorn)

the main problem I see is people scumming shops for mithril then, maybe have the shopkeeper get frustrated at you if you enter and leave his shop a lot without buying things? or make mithril expensive?

personally, I would want to see weapon damage nerfed as they grow too overpowered (even if you dont adjust anything else), and a x2 is much less than a x6.

then I would put critical hits back at x2 for a test run.

[Zonk]

Personally, I was a bit put off by mithril armour requiring MORE strength to equip, considering it's supposed to be so light and easy to wear. I do know there are balance reasons for that, but still...

[Shoob]

yeah, I think that if it really is needed, they could be made more rare too, making it more balanced if it is changed.

[Vanguard]

Rarity isn't a good solution to balance problems.

[Antagonist]

IMO there should be 2 tiers of metals. Light and Heavy.

Mithril should be the top of the light metal tier, capable of making armor that requires LESS strength and fatigue, but still does more than streel. This should in effect turn into the ultimate armor drop for mages or rogues. Rare of course. Not sure what other 'light' metals there are that can lead up to this tho.

For fighters tho, they should get a wide range of heavier but FAR more effective metals. Like galvorn. It should be well worth getting the higher str for these, but the lighter metals will allow the non-str based chars to also get something out of it.

As for metal in weapons... I dunno...

Dwarf Fortress made an interesting approach and observation, it doesn't matter what metal the weapon is made from, what matters is its cutting/bashing ability (material sharpness/weight and surface area) and its crafted quality. Obviously not suited for most RLs tho, that level of simulationism.

BUT... In my mind having a light greatsword or maul isn't a big boon, its the weight and momentum that helps to damage foes after all. But mithril shortswords, arrows or daggers I can imagine to be invaluable. Perhaps these lighter strong metals assist with dex/cunning(with a talent) weapons, and galvon helping more with a damage boost on heavier weapons.

[Vanguard]

IMO there should be 2 tiers of metals. Light and Heavy.

There's kind of already 3 tiers based on the different armor talents.

[registeringislame]

Don't forget there's mummy armour.

I think mithril perhaps should require a dex requirement?

I think weapon damage should be done as an additional +x% to str (for galvorn, dwarf steel) and maybe a +x% to dex (for lighter metals)

[bio_hazard]

It seems like metal quality maybe shouldn't affect base properties so much, but instead scale more aggressively with stats or skill level. More skilled characters would get more benefit. If I suck at combat, it won't matter whether I'm using an iron or mithril dagger. Its the expert user who will get the benefit from a higher quality item.

[Final Master]

Altering the encumbrance value of items based on the metal/leather/wood/clothe they are made out of I think would be a good idea.

[Shoob]

It seems like metal quality maybe shouldn't affect base properties so much, but instead scale more aggressively with stats or skill level. More skilled characters would get more benefit. If I suck at combat, it won't matter whether I'm using an iron or mithril dagger. Its the expert user who will get the benefit from a higher quality item.

though at the same time, which would do more damage a knife of uber-sharpness or ye olde rusty butter knife?

the higher metals could be said to be fashioned better because the material is rarer, making them more damaging than just a normal iron sword, though I could see some iron swords being a higher damage, but only very rarely found.

though I still think the damage is too varied, and would still like to try my idea when I find time.

[teachu2die]

just wanted to chime in and say i agree that the current weapon tier system is maybe not ideal, and could be tweaked to be both more thematically cohesive and more gameplay-friendly.
i don't have any particularly exciting ideas to add - i do like the general idea being tossed around, though, of moving at least partially away from stat requirements, and somehow incorporating different kinds of bonuses that scale w/ stats. it makes basically no sense that you would need greater dexterity to even wield a mithril dagger than a dwarven-steel one - it does make sense, however, that a strong warrior would be able to use some heavy armor more efficiently than a mage who is just barely able to wield it.
additionally, i find the steep requirements to wield some of the more high-end equipment also greatly reduces the excitement one gets out of what should be a thrilling early game find. i've had multiple rogues discover mithril daggers on, for instance, old forest 1 - only to die at CL 12, never having been able to wield them...in tome 2 (or particularly in angband), a level 5 character who finds a dagger of westernesse will be quite pleased, and i feel like some of those "oh YES!" moments need to be added back into tome4....

[Grey]

I'd suggest toning down the base power of higher metal weapons/armour, but make them be dependant somewhat on the appropriate talent levels for that item type. For instance, swords expertise could have double the effect on mithril swords. This could replace or reduce the strength requirements, whilst still making the more powerful weapons specialist items (you need to be good with them to get the most out of them). Only problem is it may necessitate a light armour talent to balance things a bit.

[Elliott]

I dunno, I'm sympathetic to the interests here, but I have to admit I haven't heard an idea I like yet.

I kinda like the system the way it is. If mithril (and the other higher materials) didn't have significantly higher stat requirements, then you can bet the first thing anyone would do after clearing the first dungeon would be to go camp the store most likely to produce it. As has been noted, balancing by adjusting rarity is an awful way to go. All that does is make it an even bigger deal when it finally does appear, so all you're really doing is making people waste MORE time camping and at a lower level, injecting a whole layer of tediousness that I think DG wants to get away from.

If the damage of the higher grade materials was substantially brought down, then you'd need a HUGE increase in the damage done by skills. I mean, a mithril sword does, I dunno, maybe 6x as much damage as an iron sword? If ratio moved to 2 to 1, then you'd have to triple the damage multipliers of all the skills. Sure, in theory you could do that, but it would wreak havoc with balance. See, lets say stunning blow suddenly went to a 500% damage multiplier at rank 5. As easy as it may be to get mithril weapons (though its not trivial to equip one early in the game), its a LOT easier to simply raise a skill to "5". Characters, even with starter weapons, would start hitting like freight trains, throwing off the game's balance. Trying to tie higher skill multipliers into weapon materials might be doable, but sounds tricky to do. Essentially, you'd be turning every weapon in the game into a "steel longsword of the warmaster" all with different multipliers, and that sounds like a nightmare to keep track of.

The best solution I've been able to think of regarding people's concerns would be to: 1) swap Galvorn and Mithril's places on the quality chart and stat requirements, thus making Mithril seem relatively light by comparison, and 2) Is it possible to put some code into the Black Market (which I suspect is the source of most of these issues. If I'm playing a melee character and he fails to save the Merchant for some reason, I give serious thought to suiciding him because the loss of access to the BM is that big a hit to his progression) so that the character has to be a certain level before item materials will show up? If Galvorn and Mithril were swapped, do something like: Dwarven Steel available at level 10, Mithril available at level 15, and Galvorn available at 20 or something similar.

I don't really have a problem with a level 22 character scumming the BM for a mithril weapon before heading into Moria. The problem is when you've got a level 11 character who's been pumping STR hard and has collected a half-dozen +STR weapons in order to equip a mithril weapon which will let him absolutely lay waste to, say, the Old Forest. A level minimum would solve that.

[teachu2die]

if weapons have built in modifiers that scale w/ stats, there is no need to re-balance abilities accordingly. for instance, a mithril dagger's base damage would be 25 + dex*.5, galvorn at 20 + dex*.4, or whatever. the i wouldn't necessarily propose that specifically as a solution, but something like that might work. i just find most of the high stat requirements arbitrary, 'unrealistic', and mildly debilitating to gameplay (the significant exception being str requirements for heavy armors), and the damage breakdown in this tier system makes gear selection pretty much a no-brainer (would you *ever* wield a steel greatmaul over a dwarven steel one??)
while im not sure if i like hard level cut-offs for determining what kind of materials can appear in a shop, i do like the general idea of shop item quality scaling with level or relative dungeon depth or something. to further balance things, increase the cost of mithril and galvorn equipment. if a mithril longsword costs 100 gold, it is going to largely prohibit characters who just cleared the trollshaws from picking one up.

and store scumming is always a problem in rogue-likes...there is no real way around it, other than to trust the player that it makes for a much more boring game to spend 40 minutes resting and checking shops over and over again (not saying i'm entirely above this myself - i spent my fair share lurking around the speed ring shops and dragon mail outlets in tome 2 ). if one was really adamant about cracking down on scumming, you could maybe have the store restock counter only work while the player is taking or receiving damage, include unappealing penalties for extremely high turn counts (certain quests or items unavailable) and/or have the quality of goods in a shop gradually decrease upon restock if there have been no trips to dungeons in between.

[edge2054]

I like the idea of stat requirements being based off weight and material quality affecting how well said item scales off stats.

For example.

Knives - No strength req
Sword, Axes, Maces - 12 Str
2-Handed Weapons - 14 Str
Leather - 10 Str
Mail - 14 Str
Plate - 20 Str

Different materials could effect stat requirements as such.

Iron + 10%
Steel Base
Dwarven Steel Base
Galvoron +25%
Mithril - 25%

Then...
Iron - Base stat scaling
Steel - +25% stat stat scaling
Dwarven Steel - +50% stat scaling
Galvoron - +75% stat scaling
Mithril - +100% stat scaling (i.e. 200% for 1 handed, 240% for 2 handed, and 100/100 for knives)

And finally, find a happy base line for all weapon stats by damage types. Multiply all base damage, crit, and ap values by the scaling multiplier. In other words for someone with 0 cunning and 0 dex (just for purposes of this example) a mithril knife would be exactly twice as good as an iron knife.