Difficulty

[darkgod]

Oh and if you finish the mage quest you gain access to some nice shops. I have some more quetss like that planned that will sell neat equipment

[Frumple]

Maybe consider having creatures have some sort of prefix/suffix added on when they hit certain levels; a 10th level worm mass could be 'giant worm mass', for a simple example.

Scaling is a pretty effective way to keep from having a bunch of effectively identical creatures (i.e. palette swap, which I just realized is effectively what's going on there), but it is a little ridiculous to run into the 'same' creature you killed at character level one, only now it's a bad enough dude to mop up you, five clones, and probably half the dungeon bosses. Getting wrecked by a rat not long after you took down Bill is a little demoralizing. At least if it had gotten the title Mankiller or somethin' somewhere in there, it wouldn't be so bad.

[idle pondering]Maybe some sorta' race/class system (making monster advancement basically the same as player advancement) would be interesting, if more work. I guess that's kinda' contrary to the general *band theme (which I guess t4 isn't, really, but pedigree being pedigree...) of asymmetric actor whatsits, though.[/idle pondering]

[darkgod]

If I made npc learn new talents when leveling up then you would certainly not stand a chance
Player and npc are exactly the same, they can wied objects, they have stats and talents and levels, ...
So if I gave the monsters the same talents as the player (they already get stats when they levelup) they would be as powerful as you which means you would likely die anytime you fight more than one.
You can usualy one-shot critter-level ennemies, luckily they usualy cant oneshot you

[Nerdanel]

I find it bothersome to go through level 1 of the starting dungeon again to see that all the monsters have leveled up to provide me a challenge. It disrupts the verisimilitude of the game and diminishes my sense of accomplishment.

I think it would just be better to have a ton of monster types with minor differences, either with templates or as actual separate monsters. Copypaste, change a few numbers, and you can have a green worm mass, large green worm mass, viridian worm mass, death worm mass, demon worm mass...

[darkgod]

That's the angband way which I have come to not like much, you can boast you have 1000 difefrent monsters but really there is only like 40 :/
Also if you come back several level later the monsters of the starting dungeons will NOT (or should not if there is a bug ..) be leveled to your level.
Each zone has a min & max level and monsters will not exceed those (normal monsters). Also the actual "base" level is choosen when you enter the first time, so they should not give the impression to have become stronger since your last visit.

[Canderel]

I enjoy the levelling. Though each monster type might have a max level. Ie. Worm masses can never go above lvl 5, but orcs (a race after all) can level up to the max.

So on, and then also a max level per dungeon.

Though I agree with the thoughts of Nerdanel about accomplishment. It isn't nice (and isn't logical) to die in the place where you ran around when you were a little boy...

[Baker]

Honestly, I'll have to agree: I can't stand the levelled content either. I hated it back in Oblivion, and I hate it now.

I certainly understand DarkGods position, because having ten varieties of the same creature except with different stats is rather stupid. If you're going to be that uncreative, you might just as well just take the same creature and give it a paintjob and some higher stats. However, I simply don't like the implementation. What you wanted to create was a situation where the game keeps up with the player's accomplishments and adjusts to keep an appropriate level of challenge.

What we HAVE, however, is a situation much like a treadmill: You keep running, but you never actually go anywhere. Right now, ToME is in the same situation as Oblivion was when it was first released. There is a huge pressure to make the right choices in your character building, because mistakes are punished severely. This happens because the leveling system adjusts to your hypothetical strength dictated by your level, not your actual strength that results from your stat and talent distribution (and how well you are able to play your class.)

In Oblivion, you were able to create a character that "leveled" by training his skills in trading and persuasion. What this meant, however, was that you effectively had a high-level character that couldn't punch stuff one bit better than he could when he still was level 1. Everything else, however, had adjusted to this hypothetical strength that a combat-focused character should have gained that the point, meaning that the same bandits that a level 1 character could have defeated were now unstoppable monstrosities in Mithril armor and heavily enchanted weapons. In other words, the game punished you for not knowing which skills were "worth" taking. But if you are going to have skills that are useless for actually succeeding in the game's main objective, you might as well not have them at all.

ToME has very much the same problem right now, aggravated by the fact that you require XP to level and to improve your skills (which Oblivion did not, and thus, for example, allowed you to train combat magic in a comparatively safe environment). If you are unable to kill your enemies effectively, you are unable to become stronger. If you are unable to become stronger, you are unable to kill your enemies. This quickly turns into a vicious cycle. Add in a streak of bad luck with the (in my opinion far too rare) random drops and you quickly end up in a situation that is either completely unwinnable or so frustrating to fix that it might as well be. It also means that certain kinds of playing styles are impossible on principle. How would you play a character that is centered around stealthily bypassing enemies in a game where NOT bypassing enemies is the only way to become stronger? What about a spellcaster who uses mesmerizing spells to do the same thing? But that's a different kind of issue.

And even if you do happen to create a "build" that maximizes your effectiveness there will be no sense of accomplishment, because the best you can hope for is to preserve the status quo. You will always know that the next enemy you encounter will be as difficult as the last one, relative to your own situation. I'm using "build" in the MMORPG sense, because this is exactly the kind of situation this has produced: slow, grindy gameplay, coupled with minmaxing and exploitation of game mechanics for maximum effectiveness and no actual experimenting with what the game has to offer, for fear of crippling yourself permanently.

The ironic thing about this is that you have, basically, a situation where you'd be better of if you removed leveling entirely. If you made the player's and monster's strength static, you would have the same situation of constant challenge but without the risk of mis-managing your character's abilities into complete ineffectiveness. However, since ToME is still very much an CRPG, which is after all centered around the idea of gaining strength and building your character, I think this is plain not what you yourself intended.

In short, you have created a system that is just fundamentally broken and unsuitable for what you wanted to achieve. You can't use a few hard and fast values to judge the relative strength of every character, because the game mechanics are simply too complex for that. You simply can't KNOW how well every possible kind of character is going to perform. As such, I think you will have to rethink your whole approach to the levelling mechanic. For the moment I would propose you scrap the idea of monster leveling based on player level and make it based solely on dungeon depth instead, with a level range based on the particular dungeon. This would give the player more control over just how much of a challenge he wants or needs at a certain point in the game.

From there, you could add variety to the system by, for example, creating a number of monster spells and special abilities (themselves levelable) that are randomly assigned to monsters based on a point system, thus making each enemy more unique without having to manually implement a huge number of similar varieties. One worm might, for example, be poisonous. Another might have become resistant to cold damage instead, gaining the prefix "Icy" in the process. This kind of thing would help keep the game experience fresh without producing to much overhead.


So, that's what I think, anyway. I'd love to hear what you think about this, so if you have any feedback on why you agree or disagree, I'd be glad to hear it.

[Canderel]

Wow... Yes, you definately put up some interesting points... For one, *my* 5th level rogue <> Frumple's or Vanguard's 5th Level Rogue, (and even more so Rogue <> Mage <> Fighter etc.)...

Items and drops also make a big part of a character. Archers once they start getting better arrows becomes infinitely better... If they can use it...

[darkgod]

So basically you want me to make monsters be leveled based on the level of the zone ?
But this is *ALREADY* the case.
There seems to be a bug though that makes it relevel actors when you go back to a previously visited zone, this unwanted once a zone has been set to a level it should stay that way.

So what you raelly want is actually to makethe zones have a much less wide range of possible levels ?
The first ones (trollshaws and amon sul) have a range of 5 while the next ones have a range of 11.
Would 5 for all be better ?
At 1 of range there is no more leveling based on the player at all.

This is how a zone level is decided: base_level = min(max(zone.min, player.level), zone.max)
This means the base level is never less than the zone min and never more than the zone max.
Then each level's level of the zone is base_level + depth - 1
Then each actors are: level.level + rng(-1,2) + rank_adjustment

Oblivion is NOT like that it always levels the whole world to match the player.

How would you play a character that is centered around stealthily bypassing enemies in a game where NOT bypassing enemies is the only way to become stronger? What about a spellcaster who uses mesmerizing spells to do the same thing? But that's a different kind of issue.

So lets say we dont level monsters on player at all, only on zones (which is exactly the same as having 20 different kinds of mices, one for each level range).
How does your mesmerizing stealthy rogue works ?
Not better at all, he still cant gain levels. The only way to make it work would be to award experience for bypassing monsters.

And even if you do happen to create a "build" that maximizes your effectiveness there will be no sense of accomplishment, because the best you can hope for is to preserve the status quo. You will always know that the next enemy you encounter will be as difficult as the last one, relative to your own situation.

If you go in a place that is made for your level yes.
If you go for a high levle place you'll still get higher level monsters.
If you go to a lower place you'll still get lower level monsters (baring the bug).

Now with a fixed level ala angband/crawl/.... as you suggest:
If you are in a lower level than where you should be it'll be easy.
If you are in the level you are supposed to be it'll be the same.
if you are in a higher level it'll be harder.

What is the difference exactly ?

The only thing the current system changes is that it allows to have a "group" of zones that the player can visit in the order he wishes instead of having to go in the right order lest he faces too powerful monsters. So it's going from linear to not-so-linear.
Currently you have 3 "steps":
* Amon Sul / Trollshaws
* Sandworm lair / Maze / Old Forest
* Tol Falas

You should be able to do all of the same group in whatever order you prefer.
Without this system it would be:
* Amon Sul
* Trollshaws
* Lair
* Maze
* Old forest
* Tol falas

No choice unless you wish to be killed by a monster taht has 5 more levels than you do because you prefer to start in the trollshaws instead of amon sul.
What do you prefer?

Now this does not mean the system is without fault, the current level ranges are probably badly set and the player exp gain is maybe getting too slow in the tens and over levels.
Maybe other things too, dunno, ideas?

[darkgod]

As for builds, if you find some talents bad and useless, report it we can discuss them.
Lots of them were made quickly and can probably be improved.
Ad some builds will always end up being less powerfull, that's good, it allows variety in how you want to play. There are still many ways to make a mage or a rogue, ..

[greycat]

I'm at the point with ToME 4 where I'm not as bothered by the leveled monsters as many of the other players. In part, this is because I've adjusted to the expectation that I am going to munchkin-ify myself for combat, by ... munchkin-ifying myself for combat. I pick one method of Killin' Stuff that will work for the class in question, and focus almost exclusively on that. There is almost no deviation in my class builds any more.

Another part, however, is the cap on monster leveling. If you level up to level 6 or so then yeah, those white worm masses on level 2 of Amon Sul (pardon me for not launching the game to look up where the ^ " ' ` marks go) can be bastards. But if you level up to level 10, they're not much worse. And if you're level 13, you'll stomp them.

So, you can grind yourself past the level caps, at least on some zones. Does this hurt you later? Well, I don't know. There isn't much "later" in my games. Some invisible boss monster from hell one-hits me before I even know he's there, or I get stuck in a degenerate sandworm hole with no means of egress, etc.

Yet another part is getting equipment that's commensurate with your level. This can mean grinding for item drops, or for gold. A level 6 with an iron weapon and 2 bits of leather armor is nowhere near as potent as a level 6 with steel in every slot. (Of course, this doesn't apply to mages in the same way that it does to fighters/rogues.)

[greycat]

Currently you have 3 "steps":
* Amon Sul / Trollshaws
* Sandworm lair / Maze / Old Forest
* Tol Falas

In my experience, it's more like:

• Trollshaws
• Old Forest / Amon Sul
• Sandworm hole / Maze
• Elven ruins / Tol Falas

Amon Sul is WAY too deadly to be the first dungeon you do. WAY WAY too deadly. I sometimes don't even bother going there at all, even after clearing the Old Forest. It's ridiculous.

Actually, what I could really use is somewhere in between the Old Forest and the Elven Ruins that isn't a total deathtrap. Apparently I need to somehow scrape together about 5 more experience levels, and about 7 more equipment upgrades, to have a prayer of surviving in those last two dungeons I listed. The sandworm hole is OK if you have the phial of Galadriel, but if you're stuck with a radius 2 lantern, you are toast. You can't tell where the walls are. And quite often, you can't do the sandworm hole at all due to the stairs being generated wrong. The maze is completely ridiculous if you aren't maxed in Cunning with trap disarm level 2 or better, because you cannot bypass the traps at all. Not even mages can Dig those walls (or at least mine couldn't). And the boss in the maze, while he has a spiffy hat, is absolutely murder. You can't use phase door + plink, because the phase door scrolls will take you into a corridor that's 197 steps away. Not that you have any phase doors left after those traps have had their way with you. He will two-hit you, and you can't see him coming, because of the terrain. Come around a corner, there he is, you're half dead. Now you have one chance to stun him or push him back, and if that fails, you die to his second round of attacks. You can't choose where you'll fight him, you can't buff for him, you can't get away from him to pick him off from a distance... just death.

Maybe I should just grind on level 2 of the Elven Ruins. That's not so bad. It's the boss on level 3 that tears me into strips and wipes his ass with me. The rest of it's a pushover, relatively speaking.

[Baker]

Hi DarkGod,

So basically you want me to make monsters be leveled based on the level of the zone ?
But this is *ALREADY* the case.
There seems to be a bug though that makes it relevel actors when you go back to a previously visited zone, this unwanted once a zone has been set to a level it should stay that way.

So what you raelly want is actually to makethe zones have a much less wide range of possible levels ?
The first ones (trollshaws and amon sul) have a range of 5 while the next ones have a range of 11.
Would 5 for all be better ?
At 1 of range there is no more leveling based on the player at all.
[...]
Oblivion is NOT like that it always levels the whole world to match the player.

You're right, but it's close enough to be a valid example. I guessed you'd say something like this, so I'll ask you to look at it this way: currently, there are 50 character levels in the game of which, at most, 20-25 are gained during the main quest (at least, that's what you said). Right now, this means that, in a level range of 11, you will not see any real kind of strength gain relative to the enemies for 11 levels.

This is almost *half* of the main game in which you will not get stronger in the relative sense, and more than a fifth of all content in the game. Theoretically this may sound like an okay idea, but in practice it means that the level range might as well be infinite -- because at the time you are eleven level higher than you used to be, you are not going to be spending time in the same dungeon anymore.

Also, setting monster strength the first time you enter a level isn't necessarily a good idea in its own right. Nethack does populate dungeon levels based on your experience as well (although the level range is MUCH narrower and equipment matters more anyway), which has led to particular exploits like "digging for victory", where you try to get as deep as you can at the lowest possible experience level to populate most of the dungeon with weak enemies -- and this WILL give you a much better chance at ascending. This kind of scumming suggests to me that the whole "leveled enemies" mechanic is fundamentally broken in its own right, but I guess that was kind of obvious already .

If you go in a place that is made for your level yes.
If you go for a high levle place you'll still get higher level monsters.
If you go to a lower place you'll still get lower level monsters (baring the bug).

Now with a fixed level ala angband/crawl/.... as you suggest:
If you are in a lower level than where you should be it'll be easy.
If you are in the level you are supposed to be it'll be the same.
if you are in a higher level it'll be harder.

What is the difference exactly ?

The problem is that the chunks are simply too big. You can't skip from Amon Sul directly to Tol Falas because you'll die. You can't even skip directly to the Lair for exactly the same reason. Neither can you start out in the Trollshaws to level up slightly quicker at a higher chance of dying, because they are effectively the same, except for the dungeon layout. The problem with these "steps" is that you've made is that they take too many parts of the game and unify them into too few tiers. Look at this list again:

* Amon Sul
* Trollshaws
* Lair
* Maze
* Old forest
* Tol falas

These six dungeons can loosely be categorized as early, middle and late game, just like you've done already. Looking at this, and going from my experience with ToME2, Angband, Crawl and other roguelikes, you might have a decent stab at starting out in the late early game dungeon (let's say Trollshaws) and going from there directly to the late midgame (let's say Maze or Forest) for faster progress, although you'll not have a chance if you skip the early game and go directly to the Old Forest at level one.

In your current configuration, however, there IS no late early game or late midgame, there's only early game and midgame, with everything else based on your level. This means that the current situation is even MORE restrictive than the more traditional route of progress. Sure, you could go to the Trollshaws first, but why would you WANT to? The enemies are the same, the loot is the same, the experience is the same. The only real issue is where the traps are deadlier (and maybe the ground tiles, but those don't make much of a difference). And once you've outlevelled the content, why would you ever go back at all? There's nothing there that would be a real improvement over what you already have.

Oblivion was better in that sense, because everything was levelled. That meant that no matter what order you did things, you'd always find something you could use.

So lets say we dont level monsters on player at all, only on zones (which is exactly the same as having 20 different kinds of mices, one for each level range).
How does your mesmerizing stealthy rogue works ?
Not better at all, he still cant gain levels. The only way to make it work would be to award experience for bypassing monsters.

Frankly, currently you have 20 different kind of worms as well. It looks like it's only one kind, and it's implemented as only one kind, but as far as the stats and their absolute strength are concerned, they're all different. So you didn't really fix the problem of having 20 identical kinds of monsters at all, you only automatized the process. Which is good, because it's means less work for you as the developer, but essentially you're only doing what all other roguelikes are doing, too. If you actually want more variety I'd recommend thinking about my idea with the random abilities and spells, because these are what makes the player use different tactics and strategies in the end.

And the fact that a stealthy rogue doesn't work is really part of the problem. Not because a stealthy rogue should work, this is an action game after all, but because the fact that he chose stealth over combat means that he is unable to progress. His level is the same as that of a combat rogue, but he doesn't have the damage output to compare. Similarly, because his damage output is much lower, he will not be able to effectively fight the high-level monsters that await him further on, which in turn means that he can't gain more talent points to improve his combat stats -- not that it would help him, because you can ONLY (except for some exceptions) gain more skills by leveling, which means that the enemies would be stronger still. So he can go neither forwards nor backwards.

Now, how would this differ in a level-per-depth game instead? On the first glance it would seem there is no difference at all, right? After all, the monsters still get stronger. Well, yes, but they get stronger based on how far you've progressed in the game, not how far you've progressed in reaching maximum level. In a regular roguelike, a gimped character can still progress. He'll be at a lower depth that he would normally be, given his level, and he'll have to grind a bit more, but he can still progress. In the current levelling system, he will eventually be unable to progress at all, because the monsters on the next level WILL be as strong as he should be (not as strong as he actually is), and going somewhere else is not an option as all dungeons in their tier are effectively the same.

Again, Oblivion did this better because it allowed you to train non-class skills simply by using them and without raising your level. This caused its own problems, but at least it meant that you'd never be completely unable to fix your character if you focused on the wrong things. In an XP-based levelling system with limited skill points this is impossible, creating a situation that may be genuinely unwinnable.

As for builds, if you find some talents bad and useless, report it we can discuss them.
Lots of them were made quickly and can probably be improved.
Ad some builds will always end up being less powerfull, that's good, it allows variety in how you want to play. There are still many ways to make a mage or a rogue, ..

It isn't that I consider many talents "useless" as they are, it's that they do not synergize in a way that justifies the levelling mechanic you currently have going. To be able to keep up in this kind of arms race you have to specialize by necessity. Diversifying your skillset is punished by the levelling mechanic because you will be that much weaker for trying out something new instead of improving your already strong abilities to be even stronger, in order to keep up with the steadily improving enemies. This results in a boring game with lots of mechanics that are never needed or used, because they don't strictly make you stronger.

I really like what you've done with the game, you know. Your engine is really amazing and could be the same kind of foundation for new variants that Angband and Nethack have provided for like the last 20 years, and the talent tree is a really good idea and much more fun than the old "put in points to get +X% to spell damage" skill system. But I really think that the levelled content, at least in the current version, was a very bad design choice. Of course, in the end, it's your decision and if you stick with the levelled content, people can always just make a variant of ToME where levels are fixed.

[greycat]

Sure, you could go to the Trollshaws first, but why would you WANT to?

So you don't die!

The enemies are the same, the loot is the same, the experience is the same.

Huh? The enemies are totally different. The only things that will kill you in the Trollshaws are Hummerhorns and Black Mambas showing up randomly (they are both out of depth for the Trollshaws, but can still be generated). And if you get lucky with phase door, you can often run away from those.

In Amon Sul, you have skeleton archers, elite grand master uber skeleton archers of instadeath, skeleton mages, and skeleton warriors with two-handed swords that can hit you for 100 points of damage.

Nothing in the Trollshaws has ranged attacks, and nothing but Hummerhorns and Black Mambas (and the boss monster) have super-powerful melee attacks.

The only real issue is where the traps are deadlier

... yes, and trapped corridors. At least in the Trollshaws, if you spot a trap, you can typically go around it. With a trapped corridor, you might be forced to walk through the trap to get to the stairs. Or to choose which of two traps you'll have to walk through.

You've missed another issue, though: darkness. There are places you can't see in Amon Sul, but from which monsters with ranged attacks can see you.

And once you've outlevelled the content, why would you ever go back at all? There's nothing there that would be a real improvement over what you already have.

A mage will want the boss's drop. That's it.

[Baker]

Huh? The enemies are totally different. The only things that will kill you in the Trollshaws are Hummerhorns and Black Mambas showing up randomly (they are both out of depth for the Trollshaws, but can still be generated). And if you get lucky with phase door, you can often run away from those.

In Amon Sul, you have skeleton archers, elite grand master uber skeleton archers of instadeath, skeleton mages, and skeleton warriors with two-handed swords that can hit you for 100 points of damage.

Nothing in the Trollshaws has ranged attacks, and nothing but Hummerhorns and Black Mambas (and the boss monster) have super-powerful melee attacks.

[...]

You've missed another issue, though: darkness. There are places you can't see in Amon Sul, but from which monsters with ranged attacks can see you.

Well, yes, but I'd consider these things balance issues, not a design issue. Considering that Amon Sul is the dungeon you start in, and the Trollshaws are in the same "level bracket", I assume that they are supposed to be equally difficult. Since you said that you wouldn't even go there once you're much higher level, I think that Amon Sul is much more difficult that it's supposed to be (or much less rewarding). This kind of thing can be fixed by tweaking the dungeon, though, it doesn't require modifying the whole system.