RFT

All development conversation and discussion takes place here

Moderator: Moderator

Message
Author
madmonk
Reaper
Posts: 2257
Joined: Wed Dec 12, 2007 12:21 am
Location: New Zealand

Re: RFT

#31 Post by madmonk »

darkgod wrote:For example the Fire school could become, in order:
Globe of Light (5)
Flame (5)
Fiery Hands (5)
Fireflash (5)
Inferno (5)

To get the whole school at max power for all spells one would need to invest 25 points.
Obviously I'll then increase points gained per levels from 1 to 2 or 3.
The ordering of spells means really powerful spells like Inferno will at least cost 1 point per previous talents + the max of the spell itself. In Inferno case That is 9 points, but at least it gives other spells to play with.

Thoughts ?
So for Inferno to max out and assuming minimal investment in other spells we would end up with:

Globe of Light (1)
Flame (1)
Fiery Hands (1)
Fireflash (1)
Inferno (5)

Will you be maintaining 5 levels (since you have chosen that, it may end up being different) across all talents?

So as a rough guide:

(1) Beginner
(2) Apprentice
(3) Journeyman
(4) Master
(5) Expert

This means that those ultra-specialists in the Warrior field can get to Tlvl 5 but at a cost... I like the idea - it maintains the diversity that Yottle wanted, along with a degree of specialisation to allow for differing flavours of various types.

The danger here is running into the Daggerfall trap of ending up with a character that is to some degree a jack-of-all trades.
Yottle wrote:A thing that I like in 2.x is that some types of characters pick up different skills at different rates. I don't see how this can be done with the new system. However, with a very large number of talents and restrictions on getting those talents by race/class you could have a similarly rich set of possibilities. Some of the talents ought to be affected by other things- for example a troll ought to be able to shield bash more effectively than a hobbit, but the hobbit ought to be better at stealing.
We can deal with the differing rate by having a large number of talents available, coupling it with race/class combos seems to be good!
Regards

Jon.

madmonk
Reaper
Posts: 2257
Joined: Wed Dec 12, 2007 12:21 am
Location: New Zealand

Re: RFT

#32 Post by madmonk »

Or we could try this. Please note I am being very extreme here and it may not be workable.

Consider the Dunadain under T2/T3:
Dunedain are a race of hardy men from the West. This elder race surpasses human abilities in every field, especially constitution. However, being men of the world, very little is new to them, and levels are very hard for them to gain. They can play all classes. Their constitution cannot be reduced and they regain hit points quickly.

Strength +1
Intelligence +2
Wisdom +2
Dexterity +2
Constitution +3
Charisma +2

Hit Dice Sides 10

Exp Penalty +80%

Skill Bonuses (supplementary to existing skills): None.

Intrinsic Attributes

Level 1: Sustain CON
Level 1: Regeneration

Dunadain get bonuses to several starting skills: Disarming, Magic-Device, Spirituality, Stealth, Sneakiness, Weaponmastery, Archery. Their skill raising ratios are the same as any other race.
I have bolded the important bit... These bonuses should be in 'schools' and apply to the whole school. The Class chosen affects bonuses to schools even more!

This means that a Dunadain Warrior will be very powerful in combat oriented stuff (Class & Race Bonus), weak in Magic Schools, fair in sneaky type stuff (Race Bonus)...

A Dunadain mage will be very powerful in Magic-Device (This assumes magic-device is a school! Class & Race Bonus), fair in general magery (Class bonus), fair in combat stuff (Race bonus), fair in sneaky (Race bonus).

A Dunadain Rogue will be good in weapons/armour (Class & Race Bonus), good at being sneaky (Class & Race bonus), weak in magic

A Dunadain Priest will be a good priest (Class & Race bonus), a fair warrior (race bonus), sneaky (race bonus)...

So we can choose talents outside of our strengths of Class & Race, but we don't get the bonuses that specialisation in a particular class or race will give.

We retain the Stat bonuses and apply them to Saving Throws, but they do not affect Talents, only Class/Race does this.

So let us look at a potential T4 Race/Class combo...
The Dunadain

Stats as above (or using DG's latest)

Race Talent Bonuses

Warrior School X 2
Rogue School X 2
Mage School X 1.25 (.25 for Magic Device - I am being generous)
Priest School X 1.5

Class Talent Bonuses

You get a X2 cumulative bonus (to the Race bonus) in your chosen School...
So we get this:
Dunadain Warrior:

Warrior School X 4
Rogue School X 2
Mage School X 1.25
Priest School X 1.5
Dunadain Rogue

Warrior School X 2
Rogue School X 4
Mage School X 1.25
Priest School X 1.5
Dunadain Mage

Warrior School X 2
Rogue School X 2
Mage School X 3.25
Priest School X 1.5
Dunadain Warrior:

Warrior School X 2
Rogue School X 2
Mage School X 1.25
Priest School X 3.5
As you can see Dunadain is a good all-rounder, not the best, but pretty good. We can adjust all the other Class/Race combos to suit...
Regards

Jon.

darkgod
Master of Eyal
Posts: 10750
Joined: Wed Jul 24, 2002 9:26 pm
Location: Angolwen
Contact:

Re: RFT

#33 Post by darkgod »

But what would your multipliers do in my example ?

Mhhh, maybe there could be "Masteries".
Masteries apply a modifier to talent levels of a school.
By default all masteries are set to 1 and class/race can change them.

Let's take the damage formula for Fireflash:
28 + (0.4 * Magic_Stat) * Talent_Level
It would become :
28 + (0.4 * Magic_Stat) * (Talent_Level * School_Mastery)

So for a character with a mastery of 1 in Fire, 5 points in Fireflash and 100 in Magic the damage is: 28+40*5 = 228
while for a character with a mastery of 1.5 it becomes: 28+40*5*1.5 = 328

Race/class would affect mastery. Maybe some rare in-game events could allow to raise/lower some masteries but mostly they would be stable.

How does that sound ?
[tome] joylove: You can't just release an expansion like one would release a Kraken XD
--
[tome] phantomfrettchen: your ability not to tease anyone is simply stunning ;)

darkgod
Master of Eyal
Posts: 10750
Joined: Wed Jul 24, 2002 9:26 pm
Location: Angolwen
Contact:

Re: RFT

#34 Post by darkgod »

Oh and items could affect the mastery of a school.
Like a ring of fire would increase fire mastery by 0.1
[tome] joylove: You can't just release an expansion like one would release a Kraken XD
--
[tome] phantomfrettchen: your ability not to tease anyone is simply stunning ;)

madmonk
Reaper
Posts: 2257
Joined: Wed Dec 12, 2007 12:21 am
Location: New Zealand

Re: RFT

#35 Post by madmonk »

darkgod wrote:Oh and items could affect the mastery of a school.
Like a ring of fire would increase fire mastery by 0.1
So a ring of Fire (+10) would be the one to get!

I like the idea of mastery, and obviously my suggestion is a very raw idea and would need work on it (lots of work...)
Regards

Jon.

Yottle
Reaper
Posts: 1753
Joined: Sun Jan 26, 2003 11:49 pm
Location: West Virginia

Re: RFT

#36 Post by Yottle »

darkgod wrote:But what would your multipliers do in my example ?

Mhhh, maybe there could be "Masteries".
Masteries apply a modifier to talent levels of a school.
By default all masteries are set to 1 and class/race can change them.

Let's take the damage formula for Fireflash:
28 + (0.4 * Magic_Stat) * Talent_Level
It would become :
28 + (0.4 * Magic_Stat) * (Talent_Level * School_Mastery)

So for a character with a mastery of 1 in Fire, 5 points in Fireflash and 100 in Magic the damage is: 28+40*5 = 228
while for a character with a mastery of 1.5 it becomes: 28+40*5*1.5 = 328

Race/class would affect mastery. Maybe some rare in-game events could allow to raise/lower some masteries but mostly they would be stable.

How does that sound ?
That sounds great to me. What I want is to avoid having a hobbit end up being as good with a mace as a troll. The starting character should put significant restraints on what the fully leveled up character can do.

If I want a great hafted weapon user, I should start with a troll warrior.

If I want a great challenge as a hafted weapon user, then I start with a hobbit rogue. But then maybe I will figure out a way to use a combination of talents available only to the hobbit rogue that complement hafted weapon use...

A complementary strategy is to pre-assign some talents to certain races/classes/subclasses. If a swordmaster starts out with two levels in swordmastery but gets less points to play with, that is going to cut into the possibility of creating the jack-of-all-trades characters that madmonk referred to.

madmonk
Reaper
Posts: 2257
Joined: Wed Dec 12, 2007 12:21 am
Location: New Zealand

Re: RFT

#37 Post by madmonk »

Yottle wrote:That sounds great to me. What I want is to avoid having a hobbit end up being as good with a mace as a troll. The starting character should put significant restraints on what the fully leveled up character can do.

If I want a great hafted weapon user, I should start with a troll warrior.
Absolutely, a Hobbit will not have much combat bonuses so will never be as good as a Troll Warrior and of conversely who ever heard of a large Tank being really quiet and sneaky?
Yottle wrote:If I want a great challenge as a hafted weapon user, then I start with a hobbit rogue. But then maybe I will figure out a way to use a combination of talents available only to the hobbit rogue that complement hafted weapon use...
I agree, we must be able to retain flexibility so that we can try out weird and wonderful combinations. Wastrel's Trapper springs to mind as an example of this.
Yottle wrote:A complementary strategy is to pre-assign some talents to certain races/classes/subclasses. If a swordmaster starts out with two levels in swordmastery but gets less points to play with, that is going to cut into the possibility of creating the jack-of-all-trades characters that madmonk referred to.
That's a good idea and allows for a degree of specialisation at the start:

Dunadain Warrior
School of Armour (+1)
None
Leather
Chain
Plate

Allows the starter char to assign a point to say Leather and (more importantly) wear leather armour without penalties.
Regards

Jon.

darkgod
Master of Eyal
Posts: 10750
Joined: Wed Jul 24, 2002 9:26 pm
Location: Angolwen
Contact:

Re: RFT

#38 Post by darkgod »

Yes I like!
I think we've found or talents system for T4 :)

I'm implementing it right now.

I should have some testable version soonish :)

BTW, anyone feels like writing some low level monsters ?
[tome] joylove: You can't just release an expansion like one would release a Kraken XD
--
[tome] phantomfrettchen: your ability not to tease anyone is simply stunning ;)

madmonk
Reaper
Posts: 2257
Joined: Wed Dec 12, 2007 12:21 am
Location: New Zealand

Re: RFT

#39 Post by madmonk »

darkgod wrote:BTW, anyone feels like writing some low level monsters ?
What's involved?

As I have stated I am not a programmer, my previous efforts have been an exercise in frustration... Still if no one else is willing, I will try with the usual warning I might bail out of doing it if it is too complicated for my tiny brain :lol:
Regards

Jon.

darkgod
Master of Eyal
Posts: 10750
Joined: Wed Jul 24, 2002 9:26 pm
Location: Angolwen
Contact:

Re: RFT

#40 Post by darkgod »

Nothing really difficult, mostly "grunt work" I must admit :)
If you want to try I'll explain the monster format, and then tell you "ok we have this zone, we need that and taht and those kinds of monsters for it" and you go make some and playtest them
[tome] joylove: You can't just release an expansion like one would release a Kraken XD
--
[tome] phantomfrettchen: your ability not to tease anyone is simply stunning ;)

Shoob
Reaper
Posts: 1535
Joined: Mon Jan 22, 2007 6:31 pm
Location: East of the sun, west of the moon

Re: RFT

#41 Post by Shoob »

if you want my help I could help too. depending on how much time and if I get sick of job searching.
Oliphant am I, and I never lie.

darkgod
Master of Eyal
Posts: 10750
Joined: Wed Jul 24, 2002 9:26 pm
Location: Angolwen
Contact:

Re: RFT

#42 Post by darkgod »

Ok :)

I'll make an other topic for that then!
[tome] joylove: You can't just release an expansion like one would release a Kraken XD
--
[tome] phantomfrettchen: your ability not to tease anyone is simply stunning ;)

LordBucket
Uruivellas
Posts: 929
Joined: Wed Apr 28, 2004 2:08 am
Location: Orange County, Ca

Re: RFT

#43 Post by LordBucket »

EDIT: Just now seeing that there is a more current version. Some of this may already be resolved, but I'll leave this list just in case.
RFT4
Initial feedback, running windows vista:

1) I like that there is a single executable.

2) First impression: pretty.

3) Would be nice to be able to resize/maximize the game window.

4) Bone to be Wild: I get as far as entering a name...and nothing happens. Pressing most keys does nothing, pressing enter gives me the "enter a name" prompt again. I do this a few times, and still nothing happens. Upon exit and reload, characters that I attempted to create now appear on the character list. Selecting them causes "Bone to be wild" to be secletd as the current module, but nothing happens.

5) There is some peculiar keyboard behavior on the character load screen. I appear to be able to use arrow keys to scroll down off the bottom of the list to select the top character on the list, but neither up nor down arrow keys can be used to scroll past a module name on the list.

6) I notice that I can still mouseover the module choices, and change the visibly "selected" module even after having chosen a module and been prompted to enter a name.

7) There are sometimes huge pauses during character creation. These pauses are not consistent, nor always in the same place. Sometimes after selecteding a class, sometimes after finalizing attribute points.

8) Upon finishing character creation, roughly 80% of the gamemap is blacked out, with only the upper left being visible. I can walk through the baclk area, but it is not mapped. There appears to simply be no border. Nicely though, it does not crash when I run through the darkness until I am stoped.

9) Alt-tabbing back and forth between the game window sometimes causes the game to stop recognizing keypresses.

11) Many keys don't work. < and > do nothing. ctrl-X does not exit the game. Alt-Q generates a system beep, but does not exit. In fact, after trying I feel like escape should bring up a game menu, but it also does nothing. I am using a standard QWERTY keyboard, not Dvorak. Pasting in "print(sym, ctrl, shift, alt, meta, unicode)" does not appear to resolve this. LUA errors listed under 16 below.

12) The skill screen is very visually pleasing

13) Creating a new character with the same name as an existing character causes the old character to be overwritten with no prompt. This is not ideal.

14) After having started and exited ToME, going back and attempting to create a Bone to be Wild character causes me to create a ToME character instead of nothing happening.

15) I get the impression that character "savefile" naming is handling by the babyface interface, and not by the module. I would propose that however the details are handled...it be done in such a way that modules can be designed to allow multi-generational characters, and allow modules to access multiple saves. For example, it would be very neat to have a module with a single world that was accessible to multiple characters. Character A buys a house and drops a sword in it, and character B can go there and pick up the sword. Perhaps not all modules would make use of it, but it would be a nice feature that some module makers might use.

16) Over the course of testing, stdout generated a few errors:

WARNING: No bootstrap code found, defaulting to working directory for engine code!
Lua Error: loop or previous error loading module 'socket'
At [C]:-1
At [C]:-1 require
At /engine/pre-init.lua:3

Lua Error: error loading module 'mod.class.Game' from file '/mod/class/Game.lua':
cannot open /mod/class/Game.lua: Result too large
At [C]:-1
At [C]:-1 require
At /engine/Module.lua:46 load
At /special/mainmenu/dialogs/EnterName.lua:17 plain
At /engine/KeyCommand.lua:52

17) With no monsters on screen, arrow keys cannot be used to target. I must hold shift+key to target. This is functional...but not ideal. Curiously, after using shift+key to position the cursor, while regular arrow keys don't move the character, if I press them a few times anyway, the cursor resets back to targetting my charcter.

18) When casting spells, arrow-keys can be used to scroll through the list, but the numeric keypad cannot, even though the numeric keypad can be used for regular character movement.

19) Upon killing myself with a spell, the game appears to hang for a moment, and then BAM I'm at the babyface menu with the character removed from the list. The lack of informative text letting me know that I've died is jarring, and having the dead character removed from the list is behavior that might or might not be desireable. At the very least, it would be nice to allow modules to customize it.

20) After spending all my attribute points it feels natural that pressing enter should finalize and continue. It does not. Instead, I must press escape, which gives me the skill screen, and pressing escape again starts the game. This seems odd.

darkgod
Master of Eyal
Posts: 10750
Joined: Wed Jul 24, 2002 9:26 pm
Location: Angolwen
Contact:

Re: RFT

#44 Post by darkgod »

Thanks for trying :)
Yes the more recent RFT have changed quite a few things, most keys should work, the window can be resized (by config file for now I'll add a menu later), there is gfx support and even particle projectors :)
As for Bone to be Wild it's just an entry to test the module screen, it does not exist.

The "lag" you percieve on dialogs should be gone, the first RFT had some real bad handling of the opengl code for dialogs.

The small wilderness is normal, it's a starting area, access to a bigger one will be granted after a few levels.

The lack of UI feedback on death/override/.. is "normal", aka, not yet implemented. But the general idea is indeed to make an interface that is user-friendly, aka, unlike most roguelikes ;)

Savefile naming is indeed done by the "babyface" menu, and it also handles the savefile loading, because it's a standard thing. But that does not prevent a module that wants it to have a "world" savefile along with the players savefiles and load the world once it is called, indeed I had though of doing that myself.

Thanks for your feedback, I am posting new test versions regulary too, so you can keep an eye on this forum if you wish :)
[tome] joylove: You can't just release an expansion like one would release a Kraken XD
--
[tome] phantomfrettchen: your ability not to tease anyone is simply stunning ;)

Post Reply