Skill point quandry

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AnonymousHero · #16 Post by **AnonymousHero** » Wed Sep 23, 2009 2:42 pm

That is incorrect. Dark Swords still have an effect, even with positive a positive sum of +to_hit, +to_dmg,ac and PVAL. The effect is diminished, however.

However, if you want 100% effectiveness, the only way is either Mormegil (with a negative or 0 sum) or a completely unenchanted Dark Sword. (Well, possessors can wield multiple Dark Swords, but it's usually better to wield a single (+0,+0) and something else for the bonuses.)

EDIT: Efficiency != effectiveness.

overtrix · #17 Post by **overtrix** » Wed Sep 23, 2009 5:57 pm

Had a dip into the spoilers, please do correct anything plain wrong.

Without wielding a dark sword, the strength of the antimagic field (% of times a monster's attempts at magic will fail) is your AM skill level and its radius (outside which a monster won't be affected) is AM/5.

Wield a dark sword and that adds 10 + 4AM/5 - BONUSES to field strength

... so with AM at 50 and a plain dark sword you total 50+10+40-0 = 100%

Presumably the antimagic folk covet high field strength just as a magic user covets low failure rate - if you don't keep it in tip-top condition once you're down deep, then eventually the RNG will get you a few times running and that's all she wrote.

Two minuses make a plus, which is where seriously damaged dark swords come into it - most dark swords "of Nothingness" will be giving a field strength of 100 even with just 1 point in AM ...

1 + 10 + 1 - (- more than 88 or so) = more than 100

... but as a weapon it's not on the map - so you need some other means to hurt things, most of which your AM skill is denying you.

Never fancied this road really - is already sad when you clobber a ringwraith with Mormegil by accident, can't ever imagine doing it on purpose

#18 Post by **Yottle** » Thu Sep 24, 2009 1:26 am

AFAIK overtrix's explanation is correct.

The only reason that I know for the DS of Nothingness is playing an archer. That gives you ability to deal out damage while 100% antimagic protects you from summoners and all magic attacks.

Wastrel · #19 Post by **Wastrel** » Thu Sep 24, 2009 3:42 am

Yottle wrote:AFAIK overtrix's explanation is correct.

The only reason that I know for the DS of Nothingness is playing an archer. That gives you ability to deal out damage while 100% antimagic protects you from summoners and all magic attacks.

My last character to get to the endgame used one in a set of extra arms from the mimicry skill. The combat penalties had no effect on me, but the antimagic prevented Sauron from casting spells. As a bonus, it would fall to the ground when I lost my extra arms, so I never had to risk the curse flipping if I needed to unwield it.

AnonymousHero · #20 Post by **AnonymousHero** » Thu Sep 24, 2009 5:28 am

In case anyone cares here's the actual code from xtra1.c:

Code: Select all

        if (f4 & (TR4_ANTIMAGIC_50))
        {
                s32b tmp;

                tmp = 10 + get_skill_scale(SKILL_ANTIMAGIC, 40)
                      - to_h - to_d - pval - to_a;
                if (tmp > 0) p_ptr->antimagic += tmp;

                tmp = 1 + get_skill_scale(SKILL_ANTIMAGIC, 4)
                      - (to_h + to_d + pval + to_a) / 15;
                if (tmp > 0) p_ptr->antimagic_dis += tmp;
        }

Note: There is a check for positive "tmp", but that's just to ensure that if the total effect of wielding the Dark Sword is <=0, then the code doesn't do anything. Also, there are other TR4_ANTIMAGIC_NN flags, but they're not used in ToME.

Note: The p_ptr->antimagic is expressed as a percentage.

So Overtrix's formula is correct.

Of note is also the field size which is

1 + Antimagic@4 - BONUSES/15

These are added to the effects of the skill itself (without any Dark Sword), which are (from the same file):

Code: Select all

                p_ptr->antimagic += get_skill(SKILL_ANTIMAGIC);
                p_ptr->antimagic_dis += get_skill_scale(SKILL_ANTIMAGIC, 10) + 1;

So the field distance is

(Antimagic@10 + 1) + (1 + Antimagic@4 - BONUSES/15)

with Antimagic at 50 and a Dark Sword at zero echantment, this is roughly the sight range of a Master Q. Depending on your exact relative location to the Q, the range is sometimes slightly smaller than the Q's at it will be able to summon at you. This is probably due to some rounding effect in the distance calculation, but I have accidentally(!) verified the effect experimentally -- fortunately my character lived to tell the tale.

As for DSoN: Possessors can probably also use Dark Sword of Nothingness in their second and/or third hand... though there might be code in there which also prevents attacking with the main hand if you do so -- not sure. Possessors cannot attack with the 2nd or 3rd arm anyway, so it's not a big loss if you don't want to spend 50 points in Antimagic. Come to think of it... if you have two extra arms you could wield two extra "medicre" DSoNs and probably have a 100% effectiveness Antimagic without any skill whatsoever. You wouldn't be able to detect/disable traps, but you could swap the weapons out to use a Rod/whatever periodically.

EDIT: Oh, yeah, curse flipping would be seriously detrimental to the previous 'strategy' of abusing two DSoNs for "free" antimagic.

LCC · #21 Post by **LCC** » Thu Sep 24, 2009 8:43 am

I just got Mormegil in a fight. Should I stash it for later or donate it to Mathom house? Ancient Foul Curse turns me off...

IckyThingBane · #22 Post by **IckyThingBane** » Thu Sep 24, 2009 9:28 am

I would never Mathom Mormegil - it's one of the best weapons in the game. The AFC doesn't act like a normal curse in terms of taking the item off, so you can run around with something safer (like a normal (0,0) darksword) and then swap it in when you want to beat the living daylights out of something.

The chances of it triggering during a fight in such a way as to wreck you completely are pretty remote - certainly it's never happened to me.

#23 Post by **Yottle** » Thu Sep 24, 2009 11:43 pm

IckyThingBane wrote:I would never Mathom Mormegil - it's one of the best weapons in the game. The AFC doesn't act like a normal curse in terms of taking the item off, so you can run around with something safer (like a normal (0,0) darksword) and then swap it in when you want to beat the living daylights out of something.

The chances of it triggering during a fight in such a way as to wreck you completely are pretty remote - certainly it's never happened to me.

Ditto.

When I am playing a swordmaster or other fighter that can use it effectively I will almost always carry it as my backup weapon and swap it in when I am fighting something nasty. It gets around 3000 damage/round when you get enchant it and then level it up to the 30s. It can get up to +5 to speed and attack speed. There are not many alternatives- maybe Vorpal Blade comes closest.

You just have to remember to swap it out after the battle...

overtrix · #24 Post by **overtrix** » Thu Sep 24, 2009 11:49 pm

It's an überweapon, particularly for a swordmaster - my current PC has it levelled all the way, +5 speed and attack speed, way over (+40, +20), slay this and that which for a change is non-trivial because of the chunky dice. Maybe level it somewhere manageable, such as the KD house quest with a climbing set, then just swop it in for frenzied bloodletting. Now and again a few demons appear next to you but that doesn't matter much, you've got Mormegil. Now and again you get paralyzed for 3 turns but that doesn't matter much, you're harder than something very hard, aren't you. It sucks a little when you forget to swop it out, before summoning some Wyrms for crowd control or simply to watch the sport - but that doesn't matter much either because ...

... you've got Mormegil

LCC · #25 Post by **LCC** » Fri Sep 25, 2009 12:14 am

Thanks for the advice!

I will carry Mormegil as a swap weapon from now on! I STILL need a very negative dark sword for temporary anti-magic though, don't I?

Edit : On second thought, I will stash it until I am clvl 50 because :

Ancient Foul Curse (in char sheet, shows up as TY_CURSE)
"It carries an ancient foul curse."
This is a dangerous curse (invented by Zangband's creator Topi Ylinen, hence the TY) that can still sometimes considered worth it if the object it comes with is powerful enough. This curse can never be removed from an object and it triggers periodically at random interwalls. To avoid the curse triggering needlessly, it can be a good idea to use the cursed item as a swap for tough situations and carry scrolls of *Remove Curse* for guaranteed unequipping.

It can have the following effects (note that more than one at once may happen):

aggravate nearby monsters
summon hostile creatures
high summon (that's greater demons, greater undeads or greater dragons, ants, spiders, hound)
drain 1/16th of your experience points
paralyze for 1-3 turns with free action, 1-13 otherwise. Note that you get a saving throw to avoid this *if* you have free action
decrease a random stat
amnesia
summon greater demons, only on Dungeon Level > 65
a random loss (very likely more than one point) in every stat

elcugo · #26 Post by **elcugo** » Fri Sep 25, 2009 4:42 am

I found mormegil once, in certain special level. But my character got killed before he could ever use it. I have never gone to the Helcaraxe again.

IckyThingBane · #27 Post by **IckyThingBane** » Fri Sep 25, 2009 8:31 am

LCC wrote:Edit : On second thought, I will stash it until I am clvl 50 because : ...

Sorry, I'm missing the point. Why do you need to wait for clvl50?

I recall seeing a completely ridiculous Mormegil on a character sheet a while back. Some lucky guy had managed to get the Anti-magic realm on it and had received extra speed, extra life, additional field strength, etc, etc. It was the craziest weapon I've ever seen; I'll see if I can find it when I get back from work.

edit - ah, here we go. Check out the comments for some idea of how silly Mormegil can get

LCC · #28 Post by **LCC** » Sat Sep 26, 2009 2:58 am

Thanks for the information!

I will wait until clvl 50 because I am a Thunderlord, and want to put all of my experience into my character until then. Also I have spear Aeglos, which is an excellent weapon. I will consider wielding Mormegil at clvl 50 if I have not found one of the uncursed sentient weapons by then. In the meantime, I will buy every scroll of *remove curse* available...

Shoob · #29 Post by **Shoob** » Sat Sep 26, 2009 5:05 am

having played and won with 2 antimagic peeps in several days not too long ago (both using mormegil as a swap with azghal) I can assure you that you dont need to worry about loosing 1/16th of your xp as you can regain it using restore life levels. and only using it during battles makes it not very likely at all to trigger it.

(yeah I was bored... played both with rohanknight lostsouls (one swordmaster, one unbeliever) with ironman... :/ no detection made it really hard until esp was found)

#30 Post by **Yottle** » Sat Sep 26, 2009 1:12 pm

Shoob wrote:having played and won with 2 antimagic peeps in several days not too long ago (both using mormegil as a swap with azghal) I can assure you that you dont need to worry about loosing 1/16th of your xp as you can regain it using restore life levels. and only using it during battles makes it not very likely at all to trigger it.

(yeah I was bored... played both with rohanknight lostsouls (one swordmaster, one unbeliever) with ironman... :/ no detection made it really hard until esp was found)

I think that he is worried about sharing experience because it is sentient.

But I would not worry about this either. With Mormy you can farm great wyrms or kraken-scum. With good antimagic you can also buy a bunch of summon nevermoving pet scrolls and read them at the bottom of the Paths of the Dead to get druj to kill.

You should be able to level both of you up fast. Make sure that you enchant it as high as you can before starting to level.