Anyone ever heard about GNS theory?
Its pretty neat theory for why people play RPG games. I think it is VERY interesting.
Here is the wikipedia site for it:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GNS_Theory
And here is a more in depth site. I recommend reading parts 1-3 to understand what I’m talking about:
http://www.indie-rpgs.com/articles/1/
Out of the three gamer types, which do think you are mainly?
Which stance do you usually play in?
Also, which types do you think ToME appeals to most?
I am mainly a gamist, sometimes a narrativist, rarely a simulationist.
I play with pawn/author stance almost all the time, switching to actor now and then.
I think ToME appeals to the gamist because of its difficulty. It appeals to the narrativist because of the large number of options available to shape your character/story. It appeals to the simulationist for the same reason it does to the narrativist - the vast number of options and combinations to try and to explore.
So, what do you think?
(edit: changed my comment on simulationists)
GNS Theory in regards to ToME
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GNS Theory in regards to ToME
Last edited by Makkoan on Fri Apr 08, 2005 9:33 pm, edited 3 times in total.
www.carm.org
The severity of the itch is inversely proportional to the ability to reach it.
I didn't use to finish sentences, but now I
The severity of the itch is inversely proportional to the ability to reach it.
I didn't use to finish sentences, but now I
Fascinating.
I think I'm largely a simulationist, with a strong sub-element of gamist, though I think simulationist isn't very clearly described. I want to win, and I want to win efficiently, BUT I'm even more interested in figuring out how the system works and the "secrets" the world holds.
I think ToME doesn't lend itself terribly well to narrativist styles because of the thinness of the plot, but even in other games where its a stronger presence, I'm willing to play along, but not terribly interested.
Along similar lines, when playing, I'm a pawn and that's about it. I realized years ago that I'm crap at playing characters who don't have reasonably similar motivations and interests to me. I play them poorly and I don't enjoy it. The glass is half-full perspective would say that I'm perfectly good at roleplaying as long as the role is reasonably similar to me. Of course, in ToME it doesn't really apply because I don't see the characters as characters at all, but merely as collections of attributes and capabilities. Its an oversimplification, but my current character, if things go well, will eventually be -Bowmaster, Recall, Vision- and hopefully with a great bow, which will also be part of the character's definition. I've had characters who were less interesting than their equipment kit, or even than individual pieces of their equipment.
I think I'm largely a simulationist, with a strong sub-element of gamist, though I think simulationist isn't very clearly described. I want to win, and I want to win efficiently, BUT I'm even more interested in figuring out how the system works and the "secrets" the world holds.
I think ToME doesn't lend itself terribly well to narrativist styles because of the thinness of the plot, but even in other games where its a stronger presence, I'm willing to play along, but not terribly interested.
Along similar lines, when playing, I'm a pawn and that's about it. I realized years ago that I'm crap at playing characters who don't have reasonably similar motivations and interests to me. I play them poorly and I don't enjoy it. The glass is half-full perspective would say that I'm perfectly good at roleplaying as long as the role is reasonably similar to me. Of course, in ToME it doesn't really apply because I don't see the characters as characters at all, but merely as collections of attributes and capabilities. Its an oversimplification, but my current character, if things go well, will eventually be -Bowmaster, Recall, Vision- and hopefully with a great bow, which will also be part of the character's definition. I've had characters who were less interesting than their equipment kit, or even than individual pieces of their equipment.
I am a 100% simulationist when it comes to real role-playing... I could care less about stats, numbers, rankings, etc. in role-playing (in fact, I have created my own table to game and have been tweaking it for 10 years now so that it is it's own type of game.)
However, since every single video game I have ever played termed "RPG" doesn't have the flexibility of a real table-top, story based RPG I don't consider them real RPG's
Hope this is so confusing it makes you mull over it for at least 2 minutes.
However, since every single video game I have ever played termed "RPG" doesn't have the flexibility of a real table-top, story based RPG I don't consider them real RPG's
Hope this is so confusing it makes you mull over it for at least 2 minutes.
Eyes burning, reaction rate diminished, vocabulary deteriorating...you have just been infected with the TOME addiction bug causing you to stay up to the wee hours of the morning playing this great game!
I'm a gamist. In pen & paper RPGs I use the author stance the most, switching into actor for things like in-game discussions about politics with other characters (it's fun to play a zealot) and into pawn when there is a battle going on. In ToME I use pawns since there are no other players and about the whole point is battle. I'm of the opinion that discovering game mechanics is not fun and think they should be fully documented. The fun part is the creative applying of known mechanics. I don't like Nethack either, although truth to tell I have never gotten far in it. It's just the wrong kind of game entirely. I think it's far too simulationist for me to be interested in it.
Zothiqband -- still an Angband variant.
Narrativist also. Sure, there isn't a lot to the plot, but that is part of the fun since you can create and elaborate your own subplots under the main one. For most chars, I create them a place in the world and define who they are.
Take my (Theme) white dragon sorceror strain, worshipping Eru. He's decided to recant and deny Melkor and seek the grace of Eru again, and is questing to throw down his former master in hopes that Eru will re-make him in a more glorious form than a dragon. So actually with that char I created a new plot of which the game's plot is actually a subplot rather than the other way around.
Another character strain is a female Dunadan assassin, whom I started after losing another Dunadan char. She's questing to avenge her dead brother and fulfill his quest.
So while the thinness of plot may make it slim pickings in some narrative aspects, there is plenty of room for a creative player to fill in all the narration they need. Which we certainly see in many of the DiTLs, though I'd say they display an equal tendency to simulation.
Take my (Theme) white dragon sorceror strain, worshipping Eru. He's decided to recant and deny Melkor and seek the grace of Eru again, and is questing to throw down his former master in hopes that Eru will re-make him in a more glorious form than a dragon. So actually with that char I created a new plot of which the game's plot is actually a subplot rather than the other way around.
Another character strain is a female Dunadan assassin, whom I started after losing another Dunadan char. She's questing to avenge her dead brother and fulfill his quest.
So while the thinness of plot may make it slim pickings in some narrative aspects, there is plenty of room for a creative player to fill in all the narration they need. Which we certainly see in many of the DiTLs, though I'd say they display an equal tendency to simulation.
*Child of Feanor*
In my past attempts at DitL I played gamist as usual, but also engaged my authorist side. I wasn't a detailed DitL writer, preferring to gloss over the dull bits and concentrate on in-character writing on how my character experienced her quest. Maybe the detailed DitL writers are the simulationists.
Zothiqband -- still an Angband variant.
I'm predominantly a Simulationist, with a bit of the others as well. What I like best is exploring new things -- places, race/class combinations, tactics, spoily secrets about all of the above, etc. I really don't care about the competition, though I really would like to win someday, if only to say that I have finally done so.
I'm not sure about the comment on Simulationists getting bored with the game due to lack of graphics. My sim set is right up there in my head. Though I am a very visual person, I'm not *hugely* visual about this game. I play with ASCII, not tiles, and while I sometimes do visualize the beasties, I really don't dwell on that.
My DiTLs reflect that, I think. I can certainly write fiction, and it's fun to get into a character's head (some of the "Author" bit there) but other forum members are far more talented at true characterization. I'm more the exploration and game mechanics. I'll have to think about it some more, though... a very interesting set of websites.
One point: The websites referenced pertain to RPGs in general, and ToME (and roguelikes in general) are a very specific subset of RPGs. My answers would be very different if you asked me how I played RPGs such as AD&D.
I'm not sure about the comment on Simulationists getting bored with the game due to lack of graphics. My sim set is right up there in my head. Though I am a very visual person, I'm not *hugely* visual about this game. I play with ASCII, not tiles, and while I sometimes do visualize the beasties, I really don't dwell on that.
My DiTLs reflect that, I think. I can certainly write fiction, and it's fun to get into a character's head (some of the "Author" bit there) but other forum members are far more talented at true characterization. I'm more the exploration and game mechanics. I'll have to think about it some more, though... a very interesting set of websites.
One point: The websites referenced pertain to RPGs in general, and ToME (and roguelikes in general) are a very specific subset of RPGs. My answers would be very different if you asked me how I played RPGs such as AD&D.
"Confusion tolerance, Pez..."
Visit the ToME wiki!
Visit the ToME wiki!
eh, I guess I just didn't completly realize what the simulationists isMaylith wrote:I'm not sure about the comment on Simulationists getting bored with the game due to lack of graphics. My sim set is right up there in my head. Though I am a very visual person, I'm not *hugely* visual about this game. I play with ASCII, not tiles, and while I sometimes do visualize the beasties, I really don't dwell on that.
I was thinking in terms of *physical* exploration so to speak - going from one place to another. I didn't realize it was talking about a greater depth of exploraion.I think I got it now though
www.carm.org
The severity of the itch is inversely proportional to the ability to reach it.
I didn't use to finish sentences, but now I
The severity of the itch is inversely proportional to the ability to reach it.
I didn't use to finish sentences, but now I
Well, I'm *still* reading and re-reading that site. I think I've got it straight, but I'm willing to be convinced otherwise. It sort of sounds to me like one of those personality tests -- e.g. "What kind of ToME player are YOU?!?" But, I can also see how it has serious ramifications for professional game design in general. No joke there.
This whole discussion is quite fascinating. Bravo for bringing it to our attention!
This whole discussion is quite fascinating. Bravo for bringing it to our attention!
"Confusion tolerance, Pez..."
Visit the ToME wiki!
Visit the ToME wiki!
*takes a bow*
My pleasure
I'm actually very suprised I haven't found this before now, because game design and theory is a hobby of mine. A couple years back I had a science fair project in which I made a computer program that can beat humans at rock-paper-sciccors (http://web.tampabay.rr.com/misk/matt/rps.zip (mode 1 random mode 2 strategy)) and won 4th place at state science fair! I also used to play super smash brothers: melee at the tournament level and created numerous extensive anylizations of the metagame that boarded on philosophy/metaphysics.
ect, ect, yada-yada.
Also, if you want to read some good articles on general game design, check out http://www.sirlin.net
(Hmm, I have a question I have been meaning to ask that is not worthy of a new topic: why doesn't the forum or wiki have an off-topic section? I can't recall ever seeing a forum without one, except for ToME that is.)
My pleasure
I'm actually very suprised I haven't found this before now, because game design and theory is a hobby of mine. A couple years back I had a science fair project in which I made a computer program that can beat humans at rock-paper-sciccors (http://web.tampabay.rr.com/misk/matt/rps.zip (mode 1 random mode 2 strategy)) and won 4th place at state science fair! I also used to play super smash brothers: melee at the tournament level and created numerous extensive anylizations of the metagame that boarded on philosophy/metaphysics.
ect, ect, yada-yada.
Also, if you want to read some good articles on general game design, check out http://www.sirlin.net
(Hmm, I have a question I have been meaning to ask that is not worthy of a new topic: why doesn't the forum or wiki have an off-topic section? I can't recall ever seeing a forum without one, except for ToME that is.)
www.carm.org
The severity of the itch is inversely proportional to the ability to reach it.
I didn't use to finish sentences, but now I
The severity of the itch is inversely proportional to the ability to reach it.
I didn't use to finish sentences, but now I
Ask Neil Stevens, if you please; I'm not going there.Makkoan wrote:(Hmm, I have a question I have been meaning to ask that is not worthy of a new topic: why doesn't the forum or wiki have an off-topic section? I can't recall ever seeing a forum without one, except for ToME that is.)
"Confusion tolerance, Pez..."
Visit the ToME wiki!
Visit the ToME wiki!
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EricDerKonig
- Higher
- Posts: 47
- Joined: Wed Mar 16, 2005 11:54 pm
Yep, that's exactly what I do, like my Human Vampire Demonologist, a pupil of Melkor that becomes corrupted by power-lust, seeking the One and plotting to overthrow his master. I'll also have skeleton/spectre/zombie/possessor reincarnations of their dead ancestors.feathin wrote:Narrativist also. Sure, there isn't a lot to the plot, but that is part of the fun since you can create and elaborate your own subplots under the main one. For most chars, I create them a place in the world and define who they are.
Take my (Theme) white dragon sorceror strain, worshipping Eru. He's decided to recant and deny Melkor and seek the grace of Eru again, and is questing to throw down his former master in hopes that Eru will re-make him in a more glorious form than a dragon. So actually with that char I created a new plot of which the game's plot is actually a subplot rather than the other way around.
[snip]
I withheld my opinion until I've read and understood the concept of GNS and I must say it is fascinating indeed.
In ToME I'm mostly a gamist, but with a fair share of a symulationist and a narrativist. When I play, I play to win. But I also love exploring the game along the way, while creating a bit of a story as a background to my character.
Interestingly enough, I have a different approach to Theme - I focus on exploration there, but also enjoy the possibility to tell a tale about the character.
As for my stance in ToME, definitely an author (pawn version). It's practically impossible to become Director here, because RNG decides everything but your actions. I think it's also hard to take an actor stance here, because you as a player know so much more about the game than your character (especially if you're an experienced player).
In ToME I'm mostly a gamist, but with a fair share of a symulationist and a narrativist. When I play, I play to win. But I also love exploring the game along the way, while creating a bit of a story as a background to my character.
Interestingly enough, I have a different approach to Theme - I focus on exploration there, but also enjoy the possibility to tell a tale about the character.
As for my stance in ToME, definitely an author (pawn version). It's practically impossible to become Director here, because RNG decides everything but your actions. I think it's also hard to take an actor stance here, because you as a player know so much more about the game than your character (especially if you're an experienced player).