Celestial/Light... de-nerf, slightly

[Delmuir]

So this famously abused tree has finally been nerfed into mediocrity, so much so that I've a Sun Paladin who just cleared Dreadfell on Insane who has barely used it, to no great loss. Based on the theme of the category and my experiences playing it, I'll make these suggestions:

1. Healing light - Unchanged

2. Bathe in Light - Unchanged

3. Barrier - casting this automatically puts you in block, if possible, for the turn immediately following its casting

4. Providence - restore a very small regen to this ability.

[Tradewind_Rider]

Hi!

Interesting point of view, i found the contrary.

Light tree is still a very strong tree.
Note: the tree is heavily utilizing spell critical & crit multiplier.


Healing Light is even capable of healing a character to full at tlvl 1 at late-game.

This is a really strong effect for 1 generic point.


Bathe in Light can heal + shield for 500-700 per turn.

It needs some well-placement, but it is a very strong effect, due to the simple addition of the damage shield.
So you can have thousands of damage shields.
This is also very useful at early-game.


Barrier can give you a damage shield of ~2800-3000 for 10 turns duration.

At early game, this is a weak shielding talent, but at late-game, i would say
a potential 2800 damage shield with 15 turn cooldown & 10 turn duration is pretty strong.
Btw, with Sun Paladin even at early game this is very useful due to Weapon of Light.


Providence is clearing a random detrimental effect from you each turn.

Detrimental effect handling is a very strong mechanism overall.
It can clear any type of physical/mental/magical effect.
Combined together with Suncloak & Chants, Paladin has very strong
detrimental effect handling mechanism.


Imo if you cleared Dreadfell easily without using Light tree, that does not means Light tree is weak.

Instead it can mean:

a, Sun Paladin is a strong class
b, Insane difficulty is not that hard for you

[Delmuir]

I've cleared half of the prides now and am still not using it, though I have put points into it because I've kind of run out of places to put generics. As for my skill well... I'm tolerably competent and I play fast so...

I appreciate you taking the time to respond and I see the numbers you're talking about and, to be honest... it's kind of BS. Sure, if you find optimal gear... maybe, but in an average playthrough? What, precisely, would you need to hit numbers like that? You'd need massive heal mod and 100% crit to make it reliable and... I don't even know what else. I'm seriously asking, what would you need to hit numbers like that?

Then there's the utility of it all. Take something like Bathe of Light... if you're hitting those numbers then either you're casting it to prime a shield before running for short-burst and flee or you're healing the enemies the same, at which point you risk being out-damaged by a mob.

Barrier IS useful early game but there's always something better to put points (I find that the conditioning category, if I can get it, is worth more because Vitality is passive) later on. When enemies can dish out thousands a turn, I don't have time to waste spending a turn on a shield that only hits the number you're talking about if you set it up perfectly. It's safer to just kill the enemies because then you don't need shields.

[Tradewind_Rider]

I've cleared half of the prides now and am still not using it

Just to make my point more clear: there are Krog Archmage & Krog Temporal Warden winners on Insane difficulty.

https://te4.org/characters/153177/tome/ ... 23eee324fc

https://te4.org/characters/53875/tome/4 ... 802468f8b7

All of these characters talents are spells, and they are anti-magic from the very start, so they cannot use
any activable talents (no actives, no sustains, just passives & archmage has no passives...).

So, you can win insane difficulty just with Inscriptions, anti-magic & Combat Training.

The fact that you cleared the Orc Prides on insane & you did not used Celestial - Light tree much
proves nothing about the talent tree is strong or weak.

Anti-magic Archmage can also clear the Prides.


Numbers:

Barrier with 100 spellpower & 150% Crit Multi is a 795 damage shield.

Archmage's Temporal Shield with 100 spellpower is only a 650 shield effect.
Paradox Mage's Time Shield with 100 spellpower is only a 700 shield effect.

(You can check at ToME Tips)

So even with the base crit multi that your character have from the start,
Barrier is STRONGER than other classes damage shields.


Bathe in Light also gives you a Healing Factor buff (Empowered Healing, what also Crits btw), so it is enhancing it's own effect.
With only 150% Crit multi, it will give you an extra 70% Healing Mod, so you will have 170% healing mod, minimum.

With 100 spellpower, that is 81 x 1.5 x 1.7 = 206 healing + shielding per turn, what stacks.
So, 412 effective life gain per turn for 7 turns long.
That is 412 x 7 = 2884 effective life gain through a 7 turn fight.
Again, with 0 extra healing mod & 0 extra crit multi.

And as a Paladin, you have Path of the Sun, so you can place your BiL effect that way, you are in the edge of the effect - inside -
while te enemy is standing outside, so you can body block most enemies to enter. (At least, i can do this)


But again: anti-magic spellcaster classes won insane already, so you won't gonna get really relevant information
about what talent is strong or not from insane just by the fact, you do not need that. You do not need any talents at all.

[Delmuir]

Ha ha, I know there are challenge builds and you can win with darn-near anything. You simply suggested that either the class was powerful or I was good, and I was simply diminishing the latter claim, not basing my failure to use it as evidence of the lack of value in the category.

To be clear, my concern is with how the average player would likely use it.

Now, you presented a 10 turn, 2800 shield from barrier but what you offered was a 795 damage shield with 150 crit mult and 100% crit and 100 spellpower (not so easy on a Sun Paladin). I don't see how you get to 2800, at least not in any realistic way. Then with BiL, you suggested 500-700 a turn but settled on 412... okay, fair enough, but again, that's healing and shielding the enemy as well for the same (? not sure of the mechanics) amount. But this requires an additional 70% heal mod and 100 spellpower. I've got a Paladin right now with 150 multiplier, 150 heal mod, 31% spell crit, and 56 spellpower. That's a big gap...

Now my issue is... those numbers strike me as implausible unless that's all you build for, sacrificing everything else. So why design a category around the most extreme exploit of it, something that few people will find the gear for or manage?

Why are we so worried about OP categories and builds when people can win on Insane without any of it? Why not accept that people will optimize at the extreme range and make every possible exploit OP, and instead focus on design play that is natural and fun?

[Tradewind_Rider]

Now, you presented a 10 turn, 2800 shield from barrier but what you offered was a 795 damage shield with 150 crit mult and 100% crit and 100 spellpower (not so easy on a Sun Paladin).

You can check out my High Peak & Sorcerer fight on my Fallen:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3FoHMCj1FoM

or my post game fights against Hypostasis, Linaniil or Atamathon:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MNnPsgzAfVs

You will find there those ~2600+ damage shields from Barrier


I just presented those normal numbers to show you, even with just the base
crit multiplier, Barrier is a sronger damage shield than other classes damage shields.

But this requires an additional 70% heal mod and 100 spellpower.

No, you do not need an extra 70% healing modifier.
As i mentioned: Bathe In Light APPLIES a beneficial magical effect on you each turn.
This is called "Empowered Healing+ and this effect is giving you a 70%+ healing modifier.
So, Bathe In Light is giving you this 70% healing modifier.

Now my issue is... those numbers strike me as implausible unless that's all you build for, sacrificing everything else.

So, you can check my Fallen (i am showing all the character sheets and items at the very beginning of each video).
My character has:

139-140 effective spellpower (with spellsurge)
100%+ weapon crit chance
100% spell crit chance
~ 385 - 400% critical multiplier
~ +60% physical damage modifier (i could have +115% totally at a cost of 9 effective spellpower but i wanted the more spellpower)
~ 67% physical resistance penetration

Of course, i used the Font of Sacrifice, but with the Font, you do not have to make any sacrifices.
Sun Paladin also has extra physical & spell crit chances from Sun's Vengeance.

[Delmuir]

Thanks for the numbers. That's what I was hoping for...

Now, I believe you, to be clear, but that's not the issue. The issue is that the numbers you just presented are extreme outliers. I've played this game for a long time and I've won on Insane many times but I've never, ever, ever gotten numbers like that. I've never had spellpower that high even on a mage (maybe a Necromancer), much less a Sun Paladin.

That's my point: it's possible to break any build but to design around that seems absurd to me. Just because you can exploit it (using the vault or just being lucky or whatever) is not the same thing as anyone being able to do it on any run. I think we should design around the mean run, not the outlier. Adjust for the extreme exploits but getting 100% weapon and spell crit plus 385 crit multiplier? That's... that's not something to build around. You're not going to get those numbers on 90% of builds even on Insane and definitely not on nightmare or normal sans the vault.

I've tried to use the guides, for example, that suggest things like what you're describing and I never make those builds work because I can never get the numbers... or if I can get them, it's only at the end and I've usually had to build different in order to get to the end so that equipment isn't even useful at that point.

I think for the slightly-above average player, Celestial/Light is not as strong as you're suggesting.

[Tradewind_Rider]

I think for the slightly-above average player, Celestial/Light is not as strong as you're suggesting.

Okay, then Celestial Light is not a strong tree for you.
But i would not say this for any other player.

I hope, you will be more familiar with the tree later, and you will see:
healing, shielding & detrimental effect clearing are all very nice to have.
And Celestial Light offers you all these.

You do not have to have 385% Crit multiplier to make Celestial Light tree good.
You do not have to have even 200% Crit multiplier to make Celestial Light tree good.

Even, if i just have my BASE Crit multiplier, what is 150%, Celestial Light tree is good for me.

But it's not good for you and that's okay.

[Delmuir]

I refer back to the original post... I didn't say it was bad. I said it was nerfed into mediocrity and I'm suggesting a slight de-nerf. Yes, I accept that it's useful and if made stronger, it'll be core to outliers. However, the class is strong enough that one doesn't need to build around exploiting it. Thus, it's okay to buff it up slightly to make it a little more attractive in the rotation of skills.

[Tradewind_Rider]

I didn't say it was bad. I said it was nerfed into mediocrity

I never said : you said, it is bad.

I wrote:

"Okay, then Celestial Light is not a strong tree for you."

"But it's not good for you and that's okay."

To make it clear: "bad" and "not good" are not equivalent.
You wrote: it's "medicore", what is indise the "not good" category.


Btw, why are you writing:

doesn't need to build around exploiting it.

What do you mean "EXPLOIT"?
You mentioning "EXPLOIT" many times.

Just because you can exploit it (using the vault or just being lucky or whatever) is not the same thing as anyone being able to do it on any run.

So, if a talent uses critical multiplier, then it's an exploit?


Basically 99% of the damaging talents, effects are USING Critical Multiplier ...

So, all of the classes are building around EXPLOITS?
Because they are building for physical / spell / mind critical chance to utilize their Critical Multiplier in order to deal more damage?


Manathrust (archmage spell) is also using spell critical, therefore critical multiplier. So, manathrust has an exploit?

Did you know that: Arcane Reconstruction spell (on Archmage) can be also a spell critical, therefore it can heal
a very high amount, therefore with Shielding & Arane Shield you can gain a crazy high damage shield with Archmage and Arcane Blade?
Yes : ~ 9912 power damage shield with 250% healing mod & 400% crit multi & 100 spellpower...
(800 x 2.5 x 4 x 1.77 x 0.7 = 9912)

Did you know that: Realign (Mindslayer healing talent) also using mind crit (therefore crit multi) for it's healing?

Did you know that: Conversion (Solipsists healing talent) also using mind crit (therefore crit multi) for it's healing?

Did you know that: Lightning Speed (Wyrmics mobility talent) also using mind crit (therefore crit multi) for it's duration?
So if you rolling a mind critical, then the duration of the effect is multiplied with your crit multi?

Did you know that: Anorithils Circles are using a spell critical BOTH on their damage & on their duration?
So instead of a 5 turn duration Circle, you can have a 20 turn duration Circle.

These are also "exploits"?
Or these are "features"?

[Delmuir]

Exploit: to make FULL use of something.

Why are you so hostile? I'm literally trying to help make the game a little better... if possible. Maybe I'm wrong.

Could you seriously not understand the word exploit? You couldn't look it up or at least clarify with me, in a standard process of communication, i.e., negotiating meaning, before you lashed out?

Here's a suggestion: try not to be so unpleasant that you ruin the fun of this game and this community.

[Tradewind_Rider]

Exploit: to make FULL use of something.

Thanks for the answer. So from your understanding : 99% of the talents are having an exploit.
Basically BUMP ATTACK can be also exploited, becasue you can build for a 300% physical damage mode & 400% crit multi,
to have a : 400 x 4 x 4 = 6400 physical damage bump attack.

From my understanding, these mechanisms (critical multiplier, spellpower, healing mod, ...) are just features and not exploits.
If i am building a character with these parameters, i am just making my character more effective and not exploiting something.

Why are you so hostile?

I apologize, if you have felt offended, i just asked why are you using the term "exploit".


Btw, formerly you wrote many questions in other threads and I was answering to many of your questions.

Some examples:

viewtopic.php?f=64&t=53082

viewtopic.php?f=64&t=53076

viewtopic.php?f=64&t=52940

viewtopic.php?f=59&t=50483


So, the FACT is (with NO offense):

You are the one, who continously asking about the game mechanisms / talents / so on ...

And I am keep answering to your questions.


So, what do you think?

Am I hostile, or am I just trying to help you?


I would not consider a talent tree, that greatly improves survival on madness difficulty as medicore.


I cannot help you in this matter.
Explanations, calculations are just useful for those, who WANTS / TRIES to understand them.
You have already decided your oppinion about Celestial - Light tree from the very first moment.

I wanted to help you, so you could make stronger & more effective celestial characters,
but it just won't gonna happen.

I have no problem with that either, and again: no offense.

[Phantomfrettchen]

I've heard of these mythical shielding numbers, but haven't ever seen them myself. Sure, if we combine bathe in light with hitting enemies for extra shield, then the shield numbers go up. But by itself, I've never seen Barrier even remotely as high as this.