some criticisms of stone warden

[Zeyphor]

back in the days of patch 1.4.x, i recall that I'd ended up getting a win on nm roguelike as a stone warden, so although i may not have the best idea of what im talking about, I do have some sort of idea of what im talking about

so, today, I'd decided to give stone wardens a shot; with all of their block mechanics, I'd thought that they'd oughta be fun and really OP

but then, I decided to actually play one

first, I decided to build the build before playing the character; with 70 class points and 53 generic points, I basically waste 14 or more generic points by level 50 unless I manage to find an antimagic sun paladin or a thief and save the escort, and then, until I do, I won't be able to get any magic stuff, which would severely gimp me until then
this is because stone alchemy kinda sucks; extract gem's only use is to give alchemists ammo, and imbue gem is only worth the points when you use an artifact gem, and then you'll just find a new item afterwards and wish you could take out the old gem from the old armor and put it in the new armor
gem portal is okay, though, but that and imbue gem aren't really worth unlocking the category, and stone touch just sucks, especially on insane

now, onto class talents
the primary thing that caused me to come back to the class was the hugely-buffed eldritch shield category; now the shield pummel clone makes you autoblock after you use it, the flurry clone makes your block cooldown reset when you use it, and eldritch slam applies counterstrike on everything and also resets the cooldown of block

so, i tried using it; I got an insane stone warden to level 12
what I found out is that I feel like I should be using eldritch blow, eldritch fury, and eldritch slam to deal damage
but then they're also used to defend me; one of them autoblock, and the other 2 reset the cooldown of block

whenever i feel like i want to instantly kill something, I become conflicted with the thought that, almost every time, I'd be wasting the extra block or the block cooldown reset!
so stone warden quickly stopped being fun

and then I thought about taking eternal guard; sure, i'd be blocking attacks most of the time, but all 3 of my offensive abilities other than bumping would have to be reserved for defense... but then, if I have to defend myself by killing stuff, then it'll either feel bad that I'm blowing that stuff up and wasting a block cooldown in the process of doing so, or I'll have to constantly wait until an opportunity to block and feel bad that I'm not using my offensive abilities as soon as I could be

I feel bad if I do, and I feel bad if I don't! I'm usually missing out on a large benefit of some sort, and I don't like that
for this reason, i like version 1.5.10's stone wardens better than those of 1.7.0, even if they are weaker, and I don't think I'll be playing my 1.7 stone warden anymore

I do understand that stone wardens, being a class with 2 shields, needs to be even more defensive than bulwarks; just tacking free blocks onto the eldritch shield category isn't the way to go; there has to be a method to it that seems fun to the player
it works for bulwarks, wyrmics, sun paladins, and arcane blades because overpower is only 1 talent and you have at least 3 other talents to choose from, and, as well those classes also get riposte, which makes counterstrike feel much better to use

I actually beat insane on a skeleton bulwark not long before 1.7.0 came out, and I will say that playing that bulwark felt much better than playing a 1.7.0 stone warden

now, I'm not saying that stone wardens should be more like bulwarks, but that bulwarks and such did it right, while stone wardens did not; stone wardens should be given block and counterstrike mechanics on top of what they had in patch 1.5.10, but what they were given from 1.6.0 to 1.7.1 is not something that seems fun, so heres some ideas that might end up being fun:
first, get rid of the free block on eldritch blow, and get rid of the block cooldown reset on eldritch fury and eldritch slam; that way, people will feel better about using the abilities for offense
next, maybe eldritch infusion could make block have an even lower cooldown than usual; lowering it to 3 or 4 turns would give them alot of defense
and then, stone wardens can only take so much advantage of counterstrikes; although they do get counterstrikes from incomplete blocks, they only get 1 counterstrike per hit, but you don't wanna just make them be like bulwarks, so, instead, you could make counterstrikes do an additional something else for stone wardens; something that goes well with eternal guard
this something else could range from a radius 1 shockwave or arcane explosion for 100% weapon damage, to stunning the enemy for 2 turns, to pinning the enemy for a few turns, to giving you equilibrium and/or mana when you hit them; theres all sorts of stuff that you could do here

anyway, that said, if I play stone warden again, I'm gonna go download patch 1.5.10, or more likely patch 1.2.x, from back when insane was harder(or so I've heard); hopefully, 1.8.0 stone wardens will be more fun to play

[Pyros]

Your first issue I don't understand. If you have too many generics, you have plenty of options? Assuming you don't get the right escorts at all, you can just get Harmony from the heart of the sandworm queen, it gives a bunch of stuff that's not terrible for the class although more EQ usage isn't great. Otherwise a normal sun paladin will do the job fine(not sure why you want an antimagic one, chants are better than mobility and getting a zigur escort would require way too much effort), as you said a thief and in the worst case scenario a chronomancer would also be somewhat useable(not really great but eh). And obviously for ezmode you could also get tinkers. Still out of 9 escorts it's likely to run into at least one useable one and again if you don't, you have harmony.

Second issue I think is entirely self inflicted. You don't have to block everytime. If you don't need the blocks, just hit the things until they die. Which generally happens in one or two hits anyway, most of the time you'll literally explode everything on the screen everytime you press the big aoe, who cares if you lose the block reset when everything is dead. If you do need the blocks because you're fighting strong mobs, then do blocks? Blocks aren't lost turns. They buff the damage you do the turn after, while reducing the damage you take in that turn to ~0(mind damage goes through and in rare cases monsters might actually hit through your blocks). They also let you pace your skills to get around their otherwise lenghty cooldowns. Even then blocks are optional and if you really hate blocking, then you can just build so you don't really bother with it. That includes not taking Eternal Guard, why would you do that if you don't like blocking, instead of taking flex and arcane might and just bursting down stuff.

[whitelion]

I got an insane/RL win on SW in 1.6, and my experience is that it's more like a glass cannon and that block is more useful offensively for the counterstrikes than for keeping you alive. The Eldritch Shield skills do crazy damage, but beyond having decently high armor and a high block value, you don't have many defenses. I was drem and used Deeprock Form combined with gearing for phys res to keep my all res near the cap pretty much all the time. With Frenzy it's possible to keep it up for ~40 turns. I also did Stone Spikes late game since it shuts a lot of people down for a good number of turns if you invest in it. I was able to save a Sun Paladin escort, and obvious Chant of Fortress was great for what I was doing, so I took chants, but I agree it might be nice if SW had another generic category.

[smithfield]

I second the glass cannon thing. Its weird because everything about the class makes you 'think' that it would be tanky as hell with two shields and armor, but in practice you need to be rather careful.

If you can get up in the fight, then you're ok, but if things turn around you get into to serious trouble fast. The main thing I think is mobility. With the vines, you have several ways to get into trouble, but no built-in way to get out.

I used an SW to break in 1.7 and got out East w/ one death which was in the Dark Crypt (of course). I'm playing on Nightmare and trying out the semi-roguelike mode. This guy crushed the Master like a grape. I've never had that fight be so one sided.

I feel the class has depth - there is certainly more than one viable way to play it which is good design. The lack of in-class generics just makes the escorts more appealing. Some classes really have too much in-class to be able to make use of escorts. Like brawlers. And besides, the Dwarf racial really wants a bunch of points and one of the main skills rewards you for so doing. Going all in on the Money is Power skill makes up for weak status clearing.

My first several SW runs made me think that the Clones were the strength of the build, and they can carry you if you decide to front load WP and bring up MG later, which I often do. But I think the pow pow pow power is in the Eldritch shield tree.

I also went Spikes and Deeprock. I have not in all my runs tried the Stone tree yet. Adept was my first pick for prodigy. The combination is amazing.

[GlassGo]

SW has the only weak point - bad status management. He lack ways to clear them.
My @ perished in Yeekgur at lvl25+ infight with farportal randboos, who was shadowblade. Even Wrap of Stones didn't help at all.
Mobility isn't a problem now, with new Vines tree, which now completely usable and OK.