I don't really think that the balance problem is Infinite Dungeon so much as using category points for mastery and high scaling in general. This is actually a pretty sensible idea for Avatars because they 1: Rarely need to unlock more then one or two categories and 2: Can't get Inscriptions. The fact that their Ferocity generic talents have ten levels[And thus get twice the improvement from mastery] and also have eight talents in each category means that mastering them is really good. This leads to some pretty high numbers. For example, my Hydra winner used a cat point on both Natural Combat and Noble Animal to get these:
+131 spellpower[Equivilant to ~131 points of Magic]
+97[67, factouring in hardiness] armour[Equivilant to Tarrasca's armour bonus, with Armour Training]
+63% healmod[Equivilant to ~78 points of Constitution]
25% crit shrug off[Equivilant to ~83 points of Dexterity]
+79 mindpower[Equivilant to ~112 points of Willpower]
+34% Mental crit chance[Equivilant to ~113 points of Cunning]
These stats are very very good. Some of the comparisons aren't quite accurate in all situations[34% mental crit chance is only worth ~56 Cunning if you also heavily utilize spell crits and ~38 if you use all three crit types] and stats do usually have more auxiliary effects like saves or max life, but they still get outscaled pretty hard. And they're completely free. Avatars get approximately 2 generic points per level. I generally spent one of those points on a Ferocity talent and one on a normal talent, meaning that I still had the same amount of generic points as a regular character. The actives are more or less balanced and might even be a bit underpowered[You lose the strong passives, Ferocity is finnicky and they're usually worse then Inscriptions are], but the passives are very strong. This is by no means a bad thing, since Avatars aren't supposed to be able to use much equipment and this makes up for it. Emphasis on "Supposed to". The thing is, Hoarding Beast lets you use equipment. So you get to both have your cake and eat it, with good stats coming from equipment[Through Hoarding Beast] and good stats coming to make up for lack of equipment[From Ferocity talents]. Its especially egregious with Hydra, since they get so much more benefit from Hoarding Beast then other Avatars do.
In summary:
-I don't think minmay is entirely wrong, just being pretty unpleasant about voicing their balance objections.
-Hoarding Beast, in addition to forcing you to care about consumables and inventory management, obviates most of the intended weaknesses of Avatars if you're willing to stomach using it.
-You might have to be forced to look at higher talent levels then usual, because of the increased viability of category mastery increases for Avatars. Level 12 Nature Hardened, for example, is not at all unusual to find.
Also geez, that proposed change to Worldly Knowledge looks absolutely ridiculous. It goes from being worth 1-2 cat points to being worth like 50. Granted, lots of stuff has diminishing returns or operates on raw talent levels, but STILL.
Odyssey of The Summoner: Spoiler and Discussion
Moderator: Moderator
Re: Odyssey of The Summoner: Spoiler and Discussion
I prefer Worldly Knowledge being cool, if not good, to plus a bunch of cat amount.
Pronouns: They/Them
Re: Odyssey of The Summoner: Spoiler and Discussion
There's actually an addon that tweaks worldly knowledge to do that already, except at .7 instead of .5 -- intended to make your base talent trees hit 2.0 without investment other than the prodigy. If you happen to want to play around with it. If the talent's scaling is really well tuned to the base game, it's not that big of a deal...
... but, uh. All kudos to the devs et al and gods know I don't want to understate how much of a task dialing it in for everything is, but there's quite a lot that has scaling not quite that spot-on tuned. So it causes hilarious face wreckery. All sorts of face, all the time. Definitely an improvement over vanilla worldly knowledge, though, if for no other reason than if I wanted to play a cruddy adventurer I'd just go play a cruddy adventurer, ehehe. also an improvement over everything, though. an improvement over also every other prodigy in the game :V
... but, uh. All kudos to the devs et al and gods know I don't want to understate how much of a task dialing it in for everything is, but there's quite a lot that has scaling not quite that spot-on tuned. So it causes hilarious face wreckery. All sorts of face, all the time. Definitely an improvement over vanilla worldly knowledge, though, if for no other reason than if I wanted to play a cruddy adventurer I'd just go play a cruddy adventurer, ehehe. also an improvement over everything, though. an improvement over also every other prodigy in the game :V
Re: Odyssey of The Summoner: Spoiler and Discussion
Let me be clear in saying minmay is NOT wrong about what they said-- Just the suggestions are completely unnecessary-- Irrelevant, even. Believe me when I say I'm AWARE of how many things are broken in OoTS-- And I mean VERY aware. *FAR* more aware than anyone else here might even know-- But, for the sake of professionalism, I'm not supposed to mention these things until they're discovered. I withhold A LOT of information for the sake of keeping everything a surprise, so it is VERY common for me to "ninja patch" something that nobody has discovered yet... But, occasionally, someone discovers it, and I have to get down onto my forgiveness mat. 
That said, there ARE, in fact, plans to fix all the talent scaling, along with creating compatibility for the Infinite Dungeon. Curious why I would be making a choice like this all the sudden, hm...? Almost like I intend to start adding my own hostile NPCs or something...
(I love the spoilers thread. I can talk about fun stuff!)
-- AHEM! But, anyways...
@Arcvasti
RE: Natural Combat mastery
I honestly like how much it scales up with category points-- This is precisely why Loremaster escorts give x0.05 Mastery! In fact, when I divided the tree into Noble Animal, Inner Animal, and Natural Combat, *THAT* was my way of nerfing the value of Category Points spent this way. Perhaps the problem here isn't how high the numbers get, but rather how much "Hoarding Beast" supplements the tree and makes it... Well, TOO good.
... I have also tried A THOUSAND times to nerf "Nature Hardened"-- But "Armor" is honestly TOO GOOD (and important) of a stat, so it's very difficult to give an amount that makes it "expensive" WITHOUT forgoing its purpose to... Well, protect you from melee attacks! Afterall, it is replacing an entire body's worth of armor.
... However, since we're in the spoilers thread, I guess I'll mention this: In the future, you're going to get "Evolution" points instead of "Generic" points, which will be used EXCLUSIVELY to improve "Ferocity" talents. I haven't figured out an "elegant" way to do this yet-- Nor do I have the time to test it... So, for now, I'm allowing people to use the SEVERAL free Generic Points they get as they desire.
I WILL say though: The change to "Worldly Knowledge" is, to say the least... FRIGHTENING for the balance of my add-on. However, fear not-- Now that I am informed, consider the problem already taken care of.
RE: Treasure Hoarder's Will
... Still waiting to see if someone can break this. I mean... It's capped to 250 Encumbrance now... Can people STILL really break this...?!?!
RE: Hydra is OP
... Not anymore-- Hydra's become the attention of SEVERAL nerfs in this next update. It has ALWAYS been an offender for OPness-- But now, I'm thinking of a few ways to *finally* give it those weaknesses it should have always had. It seems causing it to lose more than one head at a time, as well as losing heads due to equilibrium... WASN'T enough. *cracks knuckles*
@Kamani
One of my desires is to make the many "useless" prodigies... Well, "USEFUL" via Odyssey of The Summoner mechanics! For example, Swift Hands is widely considered awful-- But the benefit it gives to Hoarding Beast makes it MUCH stronger (if you ask me). Flexible Combat also isn't too bad on Therianthropes because the additional attack now becomes guaranteed.
@Frumple
Ah-- Is THAT how it was happening? Another add-on huh? Whew... I was afraid there was some sort of beta version of 1.6 out there that people were playing. I dread for what would happen if people were using OoTS there!
That said, there ARE, in fact, plans to fix all the talent scaling, along with creating compatibility for the Infinite Dungeon. Curious why I would be making a choice like this all the sudden, hm...? Almost like I intend to start adding my own hostile NPCs or something...
(I love the spoilers thread. I can talk about fun stuff!)
-- AHEM! But, anyways...
@Arcvasti
RE: Natural Combat mastery
I honestly like how much it scales up with category points-- This is precisely why Loremaster escorts give x0.05 Mastery! In fact, when I divided the tree into Noble Animal, Inner Animal, and Natural Combat, *THAT* was my way of nerfing the value of Category Points spent this way. Perhaps the problem here isn't how high the numbers get, but rather how much "Hoarding Beast" supplements the tree and makes it... Well, TOO good.
... I have also tried A THOUSAND times to nerf "Nature Hardened"-- But "Armor" is honestly TOO GOOD (and important) of a stat, so it's very difficult to give an amount that makes it "expensive" WITHOUT forgoing its purpose to... Well, protect you from melee attacks! Afterall, it is replacing an entire body's worth of armor.
... However, since we're in the spoilers thread, I guess I'll mention this: In the future, you're going to get "Evolution" points instead of "Generic" points, which will be used EXCLUSIVELY to improve "Ferocity" talents. I haven't figured out an "elegant" way to do this yet-- Nor do I have the time to test it... So, for now, I'm allowing people to use the SEVERAL free Generic Points they get as they desire.
I WILL say though: The change to "Worldly Knowledge" is, to say the least... FRIGHTENING for the balance of my add-on. However, fear not-- Now that I am informed, consider the problem already taken care of.
RE: Treasure Hoarder's Will
... Still waiting to see if someone can break this. I mean... It's capped to 250 Encumbrance now... Can people STILL really break this...?!?!
RE: Hydra is OP
... Not anymore-- Hydra's become the attention of SEVERAL nerfs in this next update. It has ALWAYS been an offender for OPness-- But now, I'm thinking of a few ways to *finally* give it those weaknesses it should have always had. It seems causing it to lose more than one head at a time, as well as losing heads due to equilibrium... WASN'T enough. *cracks knuckles*
@Kamani
One of my desires is to make the many "useless" prodigies... Well, "USEFUL" via Odyssey of The Summoner mechanics! For example, Swift Hands is widely considered awful-- But the benefit it gives to Hoarding Beast makes it MUCH stronger (if you ask me). Flexible Combat also isn't too bad on Therianthropes because the additional attack now becomes guaranteed.
@Frumple
Ah-- Is THAT how it was happening? Another add-on huh? Whew... I was afraid there was some sort of beta version of 1.6 out there that people were playing. I dread for what would happen if people were using OoTS there!
Creator of the (rather large) "Odyssey of The Summoner" add-on pack
Re: Odyssey of The Summoner: Spoiler and Discussion
I mean... someone's probably tested the change? Or is testing it. But as far as I know there isn't a public 1.6 beta floating around at the mo'. Haven't actually played OotS with the addon running, so can't say what it's like for it, but I've tooled around a little with it and it's nicely silly. .5 would probably be more restrained, but it's still pretty hilarious. I see it more as a 150% (170%, with the existent addon) multiplier to talent points rather than a bunch of cat ones, though. Just about turns a level 50 character into a level 75 one, on a practical level. It's pretty great :3
That said, there's always mastery stacking via kit and suchlike. Farcically rare, and avatars mostly have a bit more trouble with it still, from what I've seen, but occasionally you get a big enough boost in the right category and things turn fun. Pretty sure with the right ego/randart roll you could, for example, get natural combat up to 1.5 (E: Wait, wait, no, 1.7-1.8; ritch have two potential amulet slots) mastery on a normal ritch... every once in a long, long while you'll see a .2-.3 mastery amulet or somethin'. Add a cat point and you're ready to have a ball.
So insomuch as it's a problem, it's conceptually more or less already here. Just, as folks mentioned, the proposed prodigy change would make it much, much more obvious, since instead of the conditions being right once every few/several dozen/hundred games, they're right every time you hit 30.
That said, there's always mastery stacking via kit and suchlike. Farcically rare, and avatars mostly have a bit more trouble with it still, from what I've seen, but occasionally you get a big enough boost in the right category and things turn fun. Pretty sure with the right ego/randart roll you could, for example, get natural combat up to 1.5 (E: Wait, wait, no, 1.7-1.8; ritch have two potential amulet slots) mastery on a normal ritch... every once in a long, long while you'll see a .2-.3 mastery amulet or somethin'. Add a cat point and you're ready to have a ball.
So insomuch as it's a problem, it's conceptually more or less already here. Just, as folks mentioned, the proposed prodigy change would make it much, much more obvious, since instead of the conditions being right once every few/several dozen/hundred games, they're right every time you hit 30.
Re: Odyssey of The Summoner: Spoiler and Discussion
You don't need to add any mastery or play infinite dungeon for a scaling factor of 1.4 to be broken; the point is that it's broken at any talent level. It's not that X talent or Y stat is specifically OP or UP, it's that the game is only practical to balance if everything scales consistently. Of course you could make an addon that changes the game's scaling constants altogether if you want, but that is a lot more work than obeying the existing scaling rules (it'd mean changing over 1,000 talents), and has pretty much the same end result.
I haven't played any Odyssey characters in the Infinite Dungeon.
Re: balance of the Worldly Knowledge change, even the version that added +1.0 mastery was usually a sub-optimal choice on all classes except Possessor. In vanilla the scaling rules are obeyed well enough to prevent talents from breaking at high levels, and other prodigies are really good. It was lowered to 0.5 in the merge request because the target for prodigy power should be a lot closer to Tricky Defenses than to PES or Cauterize.
Amulets of +0.43 mastery have already been a not-particularly-rare thing for quite a while, so it's very unlikely that the new Worldly Knowledge will break anything that mastery amulets didn't break already (except possessors). I wouldn't worry about it specifically unless you're developing something like Possessor that has a peculiar interaction with mastery.
edit: To be clear, I do think the addon does some interesting things; I really like the idea of playing without inscriptions. But the scaling errors largely overshadow the other features of the classes, and are relatively easy to fix.
I haven't played any Odyssey characters in the Infinite Dungeon.
Re: balance of the Worldly Knowledge change, even the version that added +1.0 mastery was usually a sub-optimal choice on all classes except Possessor. In vanilla the scaling rules are obeyed well enough to prevent talents from breaking at high levels, and other prodigies are really good. It was lowered to 0.5 in the merge request because the target for prodigy power should be a lot closer to Tricky Defenses than to PES or Cauterize.
Amulets of +0.43 mastery have already been a not-particularly-rare thing for quite a while, so it's very unlikely that the new Worldly Knowledge will break anything that mastery amulets didn't break already (except possessors). I wouldn't worry about it specifically unless you're developing something like Possessor that has a peculiar interaction with mastery.
edit: To be clear, I do think the addon does some interesting things; I really like the idea of playing without inscriptions. But the scaling errors largely overshadow the other features of the classes, and are relatively easy to fix.
Re: Odyssey of The Summoner: Spoiler and Discussion
... since I guess it's a headhunter thing, counts as spoiler? Is the yeek head -- coercion of the way, now that I double check -- supposed to be confusing passing patrols? Because it seems to be.
Re: Odyssey of The Summoner: Spoiler and Discussion
@Frumple
... ... ...
(... I should probably check if you're in the wilderness...)
... ... ...
(... I should probably check if you're in the wilderness...)
Creator of the (rather large) "Odyssey of The Summoner" add-on pack
Re: Odyssey of The Summoner: Spoiler and Discussion
Heh. In other news, since I have no idea what's causing it, is there something in particular that could be causing me to lose slots? Because a ritch that was working just fine just reloaded to this:
Which is to say an arm and their mouth appears to be... missing. Particularly concerning considering I've got the wheel of fate in my mouth and 3/5-4/5-0-0 hoarding beast. Obvious guess is some kind of save corruption. Did have a power flicker earlier today, so while I don't think it was interrupted mid save T4 did experience being along for the ride of sudden hard stop.
E: Al... also, this is looking like it might have made me unkillable. Got jumped by a randart zappy E, and instead of dying, I got a lua error and my die_at went a fair bit lower than it should be able to at the moment.
E2: Yeeeeup. Can't die, ahaha. Here's the lua error... not so sure it'll actually be help, considering I can't parse what's going wrong from it at the moment, but maybe it'll be of some use:
Which is to say an arm and their mouth appears to be... missing. Particularly concerning considering I've got the wheel of fate in my mouth and 3/5-4/5-0-0 hoarding beast. Obvious guess is some kind of save corruption. Did have a power flicker earlier today, so while I don't think it was interrupted mid save T4 did experience being along for the ride of sudden hard stop.
E: Al... also, this is looking like it might have made me unkillable. Got jumped by a randart zappy E, and instead of dying, I got a lua error and my die_at went a fair bit lower than it should be able to at the moment.
E2: Yeeeeup. Can't die, ahaha. Here's the lua error... not so sure it'll actually be help, considering I can't parse what's going wrong from it at the moment, but maybe it'll be of some use:
Code: Select all
##Use Talent Lua Error## T_ATTACK Actor: 3684 wop
Lua Error: /engine/interface/ActorTalents.lua:322: /engine/interface/ActorTalents.lua:295: /engine/interface/ActorTalents.lua:162: ...a-neka_therianthropy_summoner/talents/heart/hoarding.lua:179: attempt to index local 'entry' (a nil value)
stack traceback:
...a-neka_therianthropy_summoner/talents/heart/hoarding.lua:179: in function 'callTalent'
...a-neka_therianthropy_summoner/talents/heart/hoarding.lua:58: in function 'emptyStomach'
...a-neka_therianthropy_summoner/talents/heart/hoarding.lua:709: in function 'callTalent'
/mod/class/Actor.lua:5199: in function 'fireTalentCheck'
/mod/class/Actor.lua:2928: in function 'die'
/mod/addons/ashes-urhrok/superload/mod/class/Actor.lua:25: in function 'die'
/mod/addons/orcs/superload/mod/class/Actor.lua:123: in function 'die'
/mod/class/interface/PartyDeath.lua:39: in function 'die'
/mod/addons/ashes-urhrok/superload/mod/class/Player.lua:24: in function 'die'
/mod/class/interface/ActorLife.lua:33: in function 'takeHit'
/mod/class/Actor.lua:2841: in function 'base_takeHit'
...
/mod/class/interface/Combat.lua:641: in function 'base_attackTargetWith'
...thropy_summoner/superload/mod/class/interface/Combat.lua:424: in function 'base_attackTargetWith'
...eka_therianthropy_summoner/superload/mod/class/Actor.lua:2268: in function 'attackTargetWith'
/mod/class/interface/ActorNaturalAttacks.lua:469: in function 'attackNaturalTarget'
/hooks/neka_therianthropy_summoner/load.lua:90: in function </hooks/neka_therianthropy_summoner/load.lua:83>
[string "return function(l, self, data) local ok=false..."]:1: in function 'triggerHook'
/mod/class/interface/Combat.lua:157: in function 'attackTarget'
/data/talents/misc/misc.lua:75: in function </data/talents/misc/misc.lua:54>
[C]: in function 'xpcall'
/engine/interface/ActorTalents.lua:160: in function </engine/interface/ActorTalents.lua:149>
At [C]:-1
At [C]:-1 error
At /engine/interface/ActorTalents.lua:322 useTalent
At /mod/class/interface/Combat.lua:37 attack
At /engine/interface/ActorLife.lua:42 check
At [string "return function(self, x, y, what, ...) local ..."]:1 checkAllEntities
At /engine/Actor.lua:209 move
At /mod/class/Actor.lua:1317 move
At /mod/class/Player.lua:310 moveDir
At /mod/class/Game.lua:1899
At /engine/KeyBind.lua:230 Re: Odyssey of The Summoner: Spoiler and Discussion
Flex is good if your gear isn't shit.@Kamani
One of my desires is to make the many "useless" prodigies... Well, "USEFUL" via Odyssey of The Summoner mechanics! For example, Swift Hands is widely considered awful-- But the benefit it gives to Hoarding Beast makes it MUCH stronger (if you ask me). Flexible Combat also isn't too bad on Therianthropes because the additional attack now becomes guaranteed.
swift hands is broken if you're willing to abuse it (and you know what you're doing)
you might want to pick different "useless" prodigies. maybe tricky defenses?
A little bit of a starters guide written by yours truly here.
Re: Odyssey of The Summoner: Spoiler and Discussion
Swift Hands isn't so much useless as it is mind-numbing to use. Optimally, you should use Swift Hand's quick swap whenever it is useful, or you're wasting the quick swap for a turn. But you can do some ridiculous things like chaining strong item activated abilities like Wrap of Stone, especially in conjunction with Survival. For Avatars its even better, since your Consume becomes an even better panic button and you can swap in cure ailment torques to un-disease yourself instantly.
Sort of related to Tricky Defenses:
Are the "Antimagic" trees for Avatars in yet? The Tricky Defenses description implies they are, but I never managed to find anything that'd let me unlock them on my Hydra winner. Then again, I also didn't get Sludgenest[Started the char before it became guaranteed], so I guess I haven't checked there yet.
Sort of related to Tricky Defenses:
Are the "Antimagic" trees for Avatars in yet? The Tricky Defenses description implies they are, but I never managed to find anything that'd let me unlock them on my Hydra winner. Then again, I also didn't get Sludgenest[Started the char before it became guaranteed], so I guess I haven't checked there yet.
Re: Odyssey of The Summoner: Spoiler and Discussion
The relevant stuff for antimagic is in Sludgenest.
Pronouns: They/Them
Re: Odyssey of The Summoner: Spoiler and Discussion
So... after some thinking... Hat Trick might just be ridiculously strong.
The reason for that is that it allows you to clasp amulets... mastery amulets to be precise.
So theoretically you can get +4.8 mastery to two talent trees, since you can effectively "wear" 12 mastery amulets...
I'll test this later and post some of the results.
The reason for that is that it allows you to clasp amulets... mastery amulets to be precise.
So theoretically you can get +4.8 mastery to two talent trees, since you can effectively "wear" 12 mastery amulets...
I'll test this later and post some of the results.
Breaking Projection since 1.5
Re: Odyssey of The Summoner: Spoiler and Discussion
The ritch one seems pretty bad though.
Edit: My ritch doesn't seem to be getting any of the weapon reflections. I didn't enable the Unbreakable Blade or silent mode (I still got the normal reflections), so I don't know.
(Edit: Unerring Scalpel and Silent Blade)
Edit: My ritch doesn't seem to be getting any of the weapon reflections. I didn't enable the Unbreakable Blade or silent mode (I still got the normal reflections), so I don't know.
(Edit: Unerring Scalpel and Silent Blade)
Pronouns: They/Them
Re: Odyssey of The Summoner: Spoiler and Discussion
Allright, I'm back from the testing universe of dev mode and now I can safely say two things:
First, for some reason, mastery amulets are heavily restricted. The only categories that are influenced are Poisons, Ravenous Beast, Mist Beast, Swamp Beast, Glob and Triad.
In other words, all the categories that are initially locked except Noble Animal. Is this intended?
Second, for those categories, it works just as I thought.
Meaning you can get 5.00-6.00 mastery in one or two of these categories - Mist Beast is especially fun since the cooldown of the first talent goes down to 0 at that level of mastery.
First, for some reason, mastery amulets are heavily restricted. The only categories that are influenced are Poisons, Ravenous Beast, Mist Beast, Swamp Beast, Glob and Triad.
In other words, all the categories that are initially locked except Noble Animal. Is this intended?
Second, for those categories, it works just as I thought.
Meaning you can get 5.00-6.00 mastery in one or two of these categories - Mist Beast is especially fun since the cooldown of the first talent goes down to 0 at that level of mastery.
Breaking Projection since 1.5