Drowning removed

[GlassGo]

It is true - I heard that in next version drownin civilians in towns will be removed?

[bpat]

I hope not because it's a kneejerk reaction that will cause more harm than good. Enjoy rerolling starts if you don't get Mindblast as a melee now lol.

[HousePet]

Would have to be the slowest kneejerk reaction in history then.

[Micbran]

Would have to be the slowest kneejerk reaction in history then.

Eh I guess but I didn't hear all this "drowning is evil omg why do you do it. Remove it!" talk until like 1.5 was being about to be released (or maybe late 1.4). I'm with bpat, it feels like a knee jerk reaction.

[Snarvid]

Eh I guess but I didn't hear all this "drowning is evil omg why do you do it. Remove it!" talk until like 1.5 was being about to be released (or maybe late 1.4). I'm with bpat, it feels like a knee jerk reaction.

I know it's not your comment, just one you're reporting, but the answer is "Because my character has skills called Sadist, Channel Pain, Radiate Agony, and Torture Mind, as well as an unlockable tree called Deep Horror." I'm not at all sure we should treat him as a moral exemplar.

Also, I'm 99% sure the Ziguranth are happy to see if people are witches by throwing them in the lake.

And Defilers, Afflicted, or Corrupted feed off of death or suffering.

And Necromancers need souls.

So, really, there's a narrow subset of classes for whom it's even a question of whether they would do that.

[Aquillion]

My opinion is that it should obviously be removed. It's not an issue of it being "evil"; the problem is that it's counter-intuitive (if the game is balanced around it, it adds to the difficulty of the game by including a "secret trick" that most new players aren't going to discover.) Generally speaking, even on higher difficulty levels ToME tries to be intuitive when possible. I wouldn't have a problem with players having an obvious "mug people in town and take their stuff" button, but drowning is a weird mechanical exploit that shouldn't be part of the game.

Remember that the balance impact of it can be adjusted via tweaks elsewhere. For instance, just give the player the benefits they'd get from it automatically somehow, or provide another (more intuitive) way to do it, like an expanded early-game arena you can enter once or twice with easy-ish opponents and high rewards. Or, heck, just add an actual "murder someone for their stuff" sidequest if people want a chance to be evil - some NPC in one of the towns offers to have you help them with a heist or something.

But generally speaking when players are constantly doing something weird or counter-intuitive, that should be seen as a problem. If people want it, it should be folded into the game in a way that doesn't involve doing counter-intuitive things with the game mechanics.

[Micbran]

See, that's noble and all to remove drowning (the band-aid for the godawful start) and you say you can tweak it, but it all comes down to how exactly to tweak it. Giving 5 levels worth of exp and a free orange randart sounds cheaty, yet that's less than what you'd get from a good drown. I'm not worried about drowning being removed, in fact, I've already embraced that (thanks Mex), but I do have an issue with ripping off the band-aid and not fixing the wound.

[Aquillion]

True. Someone could make a mod that adds something to replace it and we could hope it gets added, though. A simple "arena rush with weak-ish opponents that give a lot of XP, with a randart as the reward" would be reasonable enough and probably not too difficult.

A small quest or two like that (something like the Agent of the Arena quest, but longer and with more XP) could also make the towns slightly more interesting, which would be nice - there's currently absolutely nothing but shops in the Thalore town.

[St_ranger_er]

Also, I'm 99% sure the Ziguranth are happy to see if people are witches by throwing them in the lake.

Oh, that's why there are no drowable people in Zigur.

[tabs]

True. Someone could make a mod that adds something to replace it and we could hope it gets added, though.

Like this?

[jenx]

I play mostly on Madness and without drowning, I'd have to revert to playing on Insane. I know Madness is not for most, but please keep this. It doesn't hurt anyone and allows those of us who want uber-challenge to have a least some slim possibility of success.

[GlassGo]

Problem with removing drowning is that good loot from drowning can inspire me to play game, same as good artefact in shop, like e.g. I bought gloves of Firm Hand as Ogre Brawler.
When you ha ve nothing remarcable to start with, it is not good for a game, at least my.

[Sheila]

Problem with removing drowning is that good loot from drowning can inspire me to play game, same as good artefact in shop, like e.g. I bought gloves of Firm Hand as Ogre Brawler.
When you ha ve nothing remarcable to start with, it is not good for a game, at least my.

Removing drowning won't stop you from scumming for shops, so this isn't a good reason to remove it, you could always remember you're playing a roguelike and roll with what you get, that's what I do

[bpat]

I'm with GlassGo here. I once got Titanic from a drown as a Mindslayer and went 2h + 1h + Titanic instead of 2h + 2h or 2h + 1h + Psiblade like normal. Other examples are when I get a weapon that does non-physical damage or I get lots of saves on an item I often end up deviating from my standard build. These items are less frequent in shops since a lot of the great items from drowning are rares or randarts.

If you don't like drowning, just don't do it. I don't see a big issue since mostly it makes the early game tolerable and actually reduces the amount of scumming needed since melees aren't screwed without a Mindblast Torque or Tentacle Totem for instance since T1s at level 2 is much harder than T1s at level 7 with the same items.

[darkgod]

It's more like npcs will be smart enough to get out of the water.

As for "all hell will break loose", many others things are being done too so no hasty judgement please.
I already gave madness/insane starts a headstart with levels and money, if all hell DID break loose and all in all the new systems didnt make madness start better, it'd be easy to just throw in a few random items equivalent to some drowning and be done with it.
But that'd be the last solution, it's not elegant, so let's a least use reason and try the elegant ones before, ok ?

As for melee specifically, one of the goals is to not make them suck as much with T1 weapons btw