Remove ability to meet prereqs via temp bonuses.

[Aquillion]

I feel the ability to meet talent / item prerequisites via equipment and temporary bonuses is bad for the game. Here's my reasoning:

1. It encourages micromanagement (collecting items with the correct gear, switching to it manually, then switching back). Micromanagement is bad, at least in a situation like this where there are few real decisions involved along the way.

2. It doesn't really add anything. In theory, yes, it makes gear more interesting by providing another use for it, but in practice, if you explore everywhere, you will usually get all the gear you need to hit most prerequisites. So you end up with the game balanced around the assumption that people will do this, leading to a situation where boring micromanagement is incentivized with no payoff.

3. It removes decisions. Want to max Thick Skin, or raise Heavy Armor Training on a character who doesn't use the respective stats? You can pretty much ignore the prerequisite. (Now, granted, removing the ability to meet those prerequisites with armor might just lead to another no-decision situation where absolutely everyone raises their stats to meet the prerequisites instead. But at the very least I'd submit that the tradeoff required for that would be a bit more interesting than just "meet the prereqs with gear that you wear solely for that purpose plus your Heroism infusion.")

4. The current situation is a trap for new players, who won't necessarily realize they can meet these with equipment and temporary bonuses, leading to wasted stat points. Potential pitfalls like that are sometimes worth it when there's something to gain (eg. if the system is interesting once mastered), but this isn't interesting at all, it's just mindlessly (and slightly tediously) exploiting it once you know to do so.

However, I would add that sustains (and, of course, genuinely permanent bonuses) should probably not be considered "temporary" for this purpose; some classes, like Mindslayers, have sustains that persistently raise their stats, and those are central enough to them that it seems to make sense to let them hit prereqs. This also makes a degree of sense thematically, since those talents are more central to what you are. (Granted, it occurs to me that Augmentation could be slightly tricky code-wise in the sense that it takes temporary bonuses to your Willpower and Cunning into account for its own bonuses; but I assume if the game calculated temporary and permanent stats separately, there would be a way for things like Augmentation to eg. say "this portion of the bonus, coming from your permanent Willpower and Cunning, is counted as "permanent", and this portion is "temporary".)

Obviously, this might require re-assessing some prerequisites to see if they ought to be as high as they are (possibly removing most Prodigy stat prerequisites entirely.) But I feel that that's a good thing - currently, the mini-game of meeting prereqs with items and other temp bonuses just isn't adding enough to be worth the bothers it causes.

[Steven Aus]

I'm open to the idea for 1.6.0. Maybe all the available prodigies could be decided by what you do in game (ie. so all Prodigies would have an in-game action or achievement requirement)? So level 30 being the only other requirement.

I would really appreciate it also if all the Prodigies can be worth taking without any being crazily OP (a suggestion for Pain Enhancement System is here: http://forums.te4.org/viewtopic.php?f=39&t=47988 ), even if that means they have to be reimagined (such as Lucky Day - although I suggest that That was a close one! achievement is not required for it or any other Prodigy ).

[Davion Fuxa]

I'll note that i recently mentioned something akin to this idea in the Prodigies tweaks thread. I think bpat pointed out the main contention to the issue so I'll quote him here.

I think requiring actual stat point investment for talent and prodigy unlocks has been discussed before and a lot of people were against it. It may add flavor to the game but in reality it's very obnoxious and has no upside since its only effect is making people waste stat points or restricting build variety.

If you are into doing addons though Steven, I'd probably recommend doing that though.

[KLajos]

It is really dumb that every character can learn Thick Skin with item bonuses. Everybody can have Thick Skin with 10 basic Constitution, so actually it leads to less build variety.

[Jarinex]

If you use addons, it's a pretty easy fix to adjust or remove stat requirements of prodigies (and talents I believe as well). I've done it a couple of times :p

I'm not sure if I'm for or against the idea of doing this tbh. On the one hand, minor stat requirements for talents and stuff doesn't bother me all that much. I would say it's more a pain for prodigies (playing alchemist and putting 50 points in dex for the one talent is kinda annoying). Something like this would require a lot of planning and adjustment, and I'm not sure if I have enough experience to discuss it.

[sajberhippien]

Not to blow my own horn, but I actually made an addon for this some year ago:
http://forums.te4.org/viewtopic.php?f=50&t=45742

I haven't used it since then (haven't played TOME) so I have no idea if it's compatible now, but at least it's there if anyone wants it. Should anyone want to use it and it doesn't work properly anymore, I can try to fix it.

[bpat]

From the previous thread, since somehow we're still having this ridiculous discussion. If you actually think this is a good idea how about you play Brawler, Psyshot, Arcane Blade, and Shadowblade with this self-imposed restriction and let me know how that goes, until then please stop making this argument.

I don't how one could argue that making players invest stat points for prodigies would nothurts build diversity and flexibility. I have tons of examples of how this would cripple build diversity on many classes.

Arcane Blade wants Flexible Combat at level 30? Hope you didn't put too many points in Mag or Cun lol, gotta put it in Str which does literally nothing until level 30. Arcane Blade wants both Flexible Combat and Windblade/Spine of the World? Too bad you can't do that anymore without losing points in Mag or Cun. Sawbutcher wants Windblade and Spine of the World? Too bad you can't do that anymore without losing points in Str or Cun. Bulwark wants Bloodspring or Draconic Body at level 30? Hope you didn't put points in Dex or you're out of luck. Bulwark wants Eternal Guard and Spectral Shield? Haha nice try hope you didn't want Dex for GWF and accuracy. Mindslayer wants any relevant prodigy at level 30? Enjoy doing no damage and not unlocking talents until then. Doomed wants Spine of the World and PES or Superpower, which are their only good prodigies? Guess your Wil or Cun is gonna take a huge hit then. Summoner wants Blighted Summoning and Through the Crowd (Blighted Summoning sucks but it'll probably get buffed in the near future)? Enjoy not being able to summon as many dudes because you don't have as much Cun. Anorithil wants some combination of Range Amplification Device, Spine of the World, and Crafty Hands? Enjoy your DPS loss from lower Cun.

If you don't like the way it works, you can use self-imposed restrictions, but don't ruin build diversity and general QoL for everybody else. If you want to not take prodigies or talents you don't have the base stats for, that's up to you, but there's no good reason to impose this on other people who don't like it. Maybe even make an addon for it if you want.

As a side note I'd be fine with the stat requirements being removed completely but I don't think it's important to change.

Edit: The same issue applies for talents as well. Try playing Brawler and having the Str, Dex, and Cun for talent requirements from stat points alone. Spoiler: you can't.

[Sheila]

I agree with bpat here, the change serves no purpose other than to restrict builds and would hit some classes that use several stats very heavily for the hell of it.
It's really not that hard to manage stat gear unless you hang onto every +1 stat thing you run into, one randart can easily give 15+ stat by itself, same for heroism infusions.
I don't think players should be punished for wanting to collect gear to fit different needs, the payoff is exactly that, being able to meet reqs for things you might not otherwise.

This would also actually be a nerf to things like thick skin, as there's no way I'm investing any amount of stat point into con for it, so it'd just phase out of play.
At the end of the day, I don't "explore everything", in fact I skip most optional things and I still end up with what I need relatively easily, I really don't feel like this is micromanaging at all.

[jenx]

From the previous thread, since somehow we're still having this ridiculous discussion. If you actually think this is a good idea how about you play Brawler, Psyshot, Arcane Blade, and Shadowblade with this self-imposed restriction and let me know how that goes, until then please stop making this argument.

I don't how one could argue that making players invest stat points for prodigies would nothurts build diversity and flexibility. I have tons of examples of how this would cripple build diversity on many classes.

Arcane Blade wants Flexible Combat at level 30? Hope you didn't put too many points in Mag or Cun lol, gotta put it in Str which does literally nothing until level 30. Arcane Blade wants both Flexible Combat and Windblade/Spine of the World? Too bad you can't do that anymore without losing points in Mag or Cun. Sawbutcher wants Windblade and Spine of the World? Too bad you can't do that anymore without losing points in Str or Cun. Bulwark wants Bloodspring or Draconic Body at level 30? Hope you didn't put points in Dex or you're out of luck. Bulwark wants Eternal Guard and Spectral Shield? Haha nice try hope you didn't want Dex for GWF and accuracy. Mindslayer wants any relevant prodigy at level 30? Enjoy doing no damage and not unlocking talents until then. Doomed wants Spine of the World and PES or Superpower, which are their only good prodigies? Guess your Wil or Cun is gonna take a huge hit then. Summoner wants Blighted Summoning and Through the Crowd (Blighted Summoning sucks but it'll probably get buffed in the near future)? Enjoy not being able to summon as many dudes because you don't have as much Cun. Anorithil wants some combination of Range Amplification Device, Spine of the World, and Crafty Hands? Enjoy your DPS loss from lower Cun.

If you don't like the way it works, you can use self-imposed restrictions, but don't ruin build diversity and general QoL for everybody else. If you want to not take prodigies or talents you don't have the base stats for, that's up to you, but there's no good reason to impose this on other people who don't like it. Maybe even make an addon for it if you want.

As a side note I'd be fine with the stat requirements being removed completely but I don't think it's important to change.

Edit: The same issue applies for talents as well. Try playing Brawler and having the Str, Dex, and Cun for talent requirements from stat points alone. Spoiler: you can't.

What bpat said