Marksman - Archer Rework v1.3

[Razakai]

Yeah I'm not sure about that. On one hand it is just a melee attack and those can be parried via other similar talents, but it is a bit odd. I need to do some work tidying up the messy code in Intuitive Shots anyway so might look at it then.

[jenx]

Can you make it so the talents that require a marked target are shaded out of there is none? I keep clicking them and nothing happens.

[Razakai]

Interesting idea. It's a bit trickier as the dependency is on other actors, rather than yourself... but I think it might be possible to write a prereq function that checks for targets within archery_range that have a mark and disables it otherwise. I'll try that out.

[jenx]

Yes - this will replace Archer. But as for those sustains, those are still present in improved forms via sniper and agility.

hmmm, agility only works for sling and shield, and sniper doesn't boost APR, which is crucial for Aim-type builds.

Can the current Aim and Rapid Shot remain in some form please?

[jenx]

Re the Sniper tree, the descriptions under Concealment are unclear:
1. it doesn't indicate what breaks concealment or how long it lasts. It seems to last until you shoot, but is this right? do other talents stop it?
2. what does "Each stack of take aim increases the damage...." mean? what is a stack of take aim?
3. it says "stacking up to three times" but how can it stack when it breaks when you shoot?

[Bad Badger]

You take aim automatically when an enemy is in LoS and Concealment is active, gaining 1 stack per turn. Concealment DOES break on attacking or talent use, but the taking aim buff will last for a few turns or until you use Steady Shot.

[Frumple]

Yes - this will replace Archer. But as for those sustains, those are still present in improved forms via sniper and agility.

hmmm, agility only works for sling and shield, and sniper doesn't boost APR, which is crucial for Aim-type builds.

Can the current Aim and Rapid Shot remain in some form please?

You can use rapid fire with a bow, at least at the moment. Kinda' looks like it's a bug, though. Most of the sniper talents can be used with non-bows, too, so long as they're a ranged weapon. Agility stuff looks a bit more limited, but eh.

Probably would suggest just leaving it that way, tbh. Have a talent or two (aim, shadow shot, rapid fire, bull shot, would be prime candidates, and maybe add an at-least-starting distance requirement on snipe) from each tree be universal.*

As for concealment, you build stacks by not doing anything. Spend three turns in LoS of something with concealment up and you have three stacks of take aim -- you can't see the number of stacks in the effect's tooltip (could probably stand to), but you can see how high the multiplier has gone and apply very simple math, heh. Just about anything besides moving breaks concealment, at the mo', but you have to shoot something for take aim stacks to be consumed (they last a few turns after you break concealment). E: Also just noticed badger ninja'd me. Didn't mean to repeat it, heh. Just woke up. Echo badger, basically.

*E2: Another thought is you could just make the currently-weapon-locked ones dependent on handiness instead of weapon type (well, still a shield for vault... maybe, anyway. Could just make it an offhand attack, and allow shields.), and introduce some 1-handed bow artifacts (hand crossbow) and 2 handed slings (sling staff or somethin') to the game. It'd also jive really well with opening the class up to steamtech, since there's both 1 and 2 handed steamguns (though the latter are artifact only. Still... new ego? New ego.). Have to say having stumbled on the thought it sounds a lot more attractive to me than having a bow or sling tree, actually. Adds in a fair amount of future proofing/mod compatibility by allowing new ranged weapon types to synch with the class without trouble.

E3: Though... all that said, what rapid fire and aim bring to the table are both fairly effectively able to be covered by other things. Bullseye/trueshot for AS, piercing ammo (and incendiary once you hit alloying) and headshot for dealing with armor. Not nearly as much of a concern for a marksman as an archer, heh.

[Jarinex]

I certainly wouldn't mind having agility talents and sniper talents work for both types of ranged weapons. Would be nice to have both available for different kinds of builds.

[jenx]

Ok. I'm starting to appreciate how this new class works. It is very interesting, and heaps more fun to play than the old Archer.

Class points are very thin though especially when you unlock trees.

I'm wondering if there is any consolidation possible?

[Razakai]

I wouldn't mind making Agility/Sniper weapon-independent if we had 1h bows and 2h slings, but for now I'd prefer to keep them separate and have Munitions act as the weapon-agnostic advanced tree for people. Making new weapon types is a bit out of scope for me at the moment (although I do want crossbows one day).

And yeah, stuff like apr/save reduction etc from Aim or speed from Rapid Fire is intended to be taken care of by other talents. In particular Munitions (and especially Piercing Ammo) is supposed to be the 'toolbox' tree for dealing with various unpleasant things at higher difficulties like stripping sustains, dealing with high resist/armor/save mobs and so on.

Class points being thin is a tricky one. It's kinda intended - if you manage to get every single talent they have, they'd end up rather strong, so the general intent is to 1-3 point most core skills like the ones in Reflexes and then go heavier into a few others. Bit like how in TW you tend to just put 1-2 points into lots of stuff. I'm open to suggestions though.

[jenx]

More questions/observations about talents:

1. Volley - I assume the chance decrease is for the second shot only, not the first?
2. Called shots - does it use 3 ammo or 1? good to clarify this
3. Bullseye - lots of times I trigger a mark and this does not activate. I can't see a cooldown - is this a bug or intended? needs clarifying if intended
4. First Blood - I am rarely causing anything to bleed, so I assume the bleed is only if above 90% life? And do you have to mark to get the bleed, or can you bleed without marking?
5. Flare - this seems to mark all targets in the area - is that right? It even works if they are behind walls - is that intended? It also marks Escorts - is that right?
6. Explosive shot / piercing - it says the shredding shrapnel does weapon damage - does this mean, ranged on hit effects, like temporal gloves, hit everything in the radius? that would make it fabulous
7. Alloyed Munitions - this does not have a cooldown - does this mean that if I remakr before the first Maim runs out, it stacks?
8. Shadow Shot - this causes Concealment - so should the description say, "enter concealment", rather than "re-enter". I assume the LOS is blocked for npcs also?
9. Aim - I assume this works all the time for all shots - is that right? The reason I ask is, the other 3 talents I think relate to concealment, but this one doesn't - is that right?
10. Snipe - I asked previously about this. I can't figure it out

[Razakai]

1. Volley - yes, only for the 2nd.
2. Called shots - 3 ammo.
3. Bullseye - must be a bug, the current version lacks a cooldown.
4. First Blood - yes, this only triggers if the target is above 90% life.
5. Flare - intended to a degree, the marking through walls is odd though.
6. Explosive shot / piercing - yes this should act as if you made an archery attack vs all targets in range.
7. Alloyed Munitions - correct, no cooldown. This is effectively a straight buff to your base munitions. Maim in particular is like a physical version of Numbing Poison. The theme is that each ammo type copies the effects of another - Piercing gets Venomous effects, Explosive gets Piercing, Venomous gets Explosive, albeit with different elements.
8. Shadow Shot - yes that's a better way of wording it. The smoke cloud blocks LoS for all so npcs can't target you well, but you can if you flare them.
9. Aim - yes this works for all.
10. Snipe - think I need to clarify this much better in the tooltip. Effectively the first time you use it, it gives you a 1 turn buff with the large damage reduction and status reduction, and the talent transforms into a new version. If you use Snipe again, it fires the high powered shot and then goes on cooldown. So basically you 'take aim' for 1 turn, then click the talent again to fire. It's a bit like how Shivgoroth Form becomes Ice Storm, what's happening behind the scenes is that activating Snipe grants you a new talent that becomes unlearnt when the buff expires. I definitely need to improve the tooltip, and give the 2nd part of snipe a new talent icon/name so it becomes clear that the talent has changed.

I'll clarify all of the above tooltips.

[Mordy]

I don't think it's a Marksman specific bug but I'll throw it here anyway. I was in EoR in the Vaporous Emporium boss fight. He used Ceasefire on me and I shootdown the bullet. Yet I still get hit by ceasefire the next turn.

I suspect Shoot Down doesn't work well when there's two projectiles in the same tile which the gunslinger boss does easily.

Edit: no wait, it's 100% that. Shoot Down the projectile, you can see before you confirm that there's two bullets on the same tile. Confirm the first Shoot Down and there is no more bullet visible. Yet if you put your cursor on the tile, the tooltip says there's still one. But you cannot shoot that invisible bullet at all.


Other bug : the Steady bow/sling ego doesn't work on the new Steady Shot

[jenx]

bug:

1. Flare is hitting basically instantly. I can fire one arrow which is travelling, then fire flare and it hits, and then another, and the first still hasn't hit.
2. Volley shot is the same I think
3. summons, escorts, any friendly npcs, townsfolk, can all be marked

note sure:
because headhsot has cooldown of zero, i can flare a crowd and then headshot each one of them. is that intended?

[jenx]

Bullseye is not triggering cooldown of 3 random talents for 3 turns when you Mark a target. The description implies it does. It seems to trigger the cooldown when the mark is removed though.