Bulwark Rework Brainstorming

[Cat Zangetsu]

While I think that tree is a great concept, I am, to my shock, going to have to agree with Radon here. The Bulwark is meant to be a straightfoward sword and shield class, no fancy special powers. Just martial talent.

the main action that you take with that talent tree is that you use your block skill. That's the main thing that you do. There are 4 skills on the tree, but the gist of them is that you build your character for negative hp, or in other words for taking massive damage, and then you spam the block skill. Which is what i think bulwark is meant to do.

in a world where fighting vampires and living shadows is practically common place, I don't think calling on ancestral spirits for protection is actually qualified as 'fancy'. it seems sort of 'understandable', maybe even 'desperate' that you'd need to have dead relatives fight for you in order for you to compete out there against the dragons and arch mages of the world. That's where i'm coming from. That's the spot i perceive bulwark as being in.

you guys are imagining just a scrappy dude with a sword and board. i am imaginging a class that when you encounter him on the field, you dread the idea of trying to beat him down because you know whenever you damage him he only gets stronger and comes at you even harder than before. In other words a prescense on the field as mysterious as a cursed fighter - because he basically is cursed, only in a good way, though.

It's just that in my mind, in fantasy settings, tanky fighters may not be the be the party leader, they may not be the main character, they may not be the smartest people, but they are the guys that everyone subconsciously fears the most, even the mages - because their ability to to not die where everyone else would have, is down right absurd. This mystique of invulnerability is what I think bulwark is missing. So I tried to infuse them with something appropriately mystical.

So i'm gonna drop my mic here. But one last little detail is that that talent tree was a really advanced one that you unlock around level 22 for the tier 1 skill - and the tier 4 would unlock around level 40 somewhere. so there would be an extended portion of the game where you are just a basic sword and board dude.

[Radon26]

Sun Paladin...

stupidly durable?
-heal on taking hit
-entire category dedicated to restoration
-damage taken halved
-can't take more damage in one hit than xx% of his max
check

not dying?
-second life
-chants
-celestial/light
check

only growing stronger?
-weapon of wrath: extra fire based on hp missing
-retribution: halves damage, before exploding once goes critical
-healing spells increase his/her resources
check


that's 3 checks.

[grobblewobble]

First, a question: How do we optimally differentiate Bulwarks from other shield using classes?

The one thing unique to bulwarks is the Shield Defense tree. Sadly, it contains two skills that just aren't worth using.
Improving this one tree would be enough to give the class the new elan it needs, in my opinion.

Shield Wall: -20% physical damage is a harsh drawback. The boosts you get in exchange are nice early on, but diminish in value as the game progresses, whereas 20% of your physical damage keeps getting worse. I would propose to change the drawback into -20 physical power instead.

Repulsion: terrible talent. Needs to be changed into something useful. I would suggest a passive talent that increases the block value of your shield. A little boring maybe, but it would fit the theme perfectly and synergise.

Shield Expertise: Seems OK as it is.

Last Stand: terrible talent. Needs to be changed into something useful. I would suggest a passive "fast block" talent that lowers the amount of time it takes to use the Block talent, down to about 0% of a turn at talent level 5 (maybe dex dependent).

[bpat]

Shield Wall is very strong throughout the entire game because armor and stun resistance are always welcome. I don't think the damage penalty should be lessened since Bulwark already does high damage thanks to Assault, Riposte, and Greater Weapon Focus.

[Radon26]

well, the penalty is to physical damage. shouldn't it be "weapon" damage instead?
would make more sense, otherwise picking a weapon with a different damage type (rare weapon?) would completely negate it.
and i don't think it should affect things like stone missiles, but as it is, it does.

[grobblewobble]

To be sure, Shield Wall is already kind of decent and could be left as is.

The really important steps are to replace or improve Repulsion and Last Stand. What do you think about the replacements I suggested, do they sound okay? Alternatives?

[Radon26]

The really important steps are to replace or improve Repulsion and Last Stand. What do you think about the replacements I suggested, do they sound okay? Alternatives?

---shield wall---
You want to replace 20% penalty, with a flat 20. that is going to be much harsher early, then it is later one.
personally, i don't like the idea. if you think it is too big, you could lower it to 10% or something. Not an expert.


---repulsion---
your suggestion, is to replace the talent's function entirely. with an effect, that can be inserted into literally any other talent in the category.

you say it is terrible. the only argument i recall about it, is that pushes enemies away, when you want them close to hit them.
that, and probably the fact that it does no damage. And, daze might be completely useless int he higher difficulties, as enemies have tones of saves, and daze comes off at a single hit.
-If the target was in a small cone, like swipe, instead of all adjacent, you could chose which targets you want to be removed from the fight, while others stay in your range for you to mince in melee.
-Its a defensive category, so instead of damage, how about you ADD a deffensive passive on top of this, while the talent is off cooldown. for example, the suggested block value.
i think these two changes could make this talent much better, although i am not an expert. didn't even finish normal, so what do i know.


---shild expertise---
really? i was sure its a bit bland, for a class category talent. i mean, not complaining, just...


---last stand---
As an almost noob, i can't say its quality, but i strongly disagree with your suggestion. Something like "faster block", can be slapped on top of one of the previous two talents.
Lets at least try, to keep what was it was attempting to do. Last stand seems to be designed to stall, to give you time for your other talents to come off cooldown.

That said, i don't like how it's done either. Tome tips claims it adds 888 hp total in max lvl. that can be downed in 3 strong hits. single flurry can outright obliterate that.
At best, that makes it a "instantly reduce every cooldown by 1". at worst, its the one turn, in which you are in the center of a 3k damage nuke, and your wall does nothing.
It also does nothing against status effects so... yeah, for the ultimate defensive talent its rather weak.

maybe you could add a regenerating "damage" shield, with the block properties? generates up to ~40% every turn, up to the maximum shield value.
not sure if there would be any penalty for it being broken.

[HousePet]

At least one of my escortees will vouch for Repulsion saving his life.
There can be times when you do want to move enemies away from you.

[grobblewobble]

---shield wall---
You want to replace 20% penalty, with a flat 20. that is going to be much harsher early, then it is later one.
personally, i don't like the idea. if you think it is too big, you could lower it to 10% or something. Not an expert.

Well, as I said it could be left as is. Although it IS a little weird that it affects physical damage, rather than melee damage, as you said yourself. If you find a way to deal non-physical melee damage (elemental ring, or weapon with special damage type) the downside suddenly dissappears. Not a huge balance problem, but definitely strange.

I would be very happy with 10% reduction of all melee damage, that would be a bit more appropriate imho.

---repulsion---
your suggestion, is to replace the talent's function entirely. with an effect, that can be inserted into literally any other talent in the category.

You already mentioned the weaknesses: no damage, moving adjacent enemies away is usually bad and only good in a few very exceptional situations, and daze is not a great disabler (much less disabling than stun or confuse, also many things are immune, even on normal difficulty).

As it stands, no one in their right mind will invest more than 1/5, just to have access to the next talent.. if you read the bulwark guides, they will say just that and "not worth a slot on your action bar".

So.. yeah maybe a straight block bonus is a little boring, but it would have very nice synergy with the other talents and make bulwarks good with shields in a unique way.

But alternative ideas are welcome. As long as the talent is improved in any way at all I will be happy.

Same with Last Stand, I agree with you completely, it is just too weak to make it work, enemies will still tear you down and keep applying debuffs. I think it will be hard to make a talent like this work, because when you need it, you will probably be better off running away rather than using it. That is why I was trying to think of a complete replacement. Also, instant block would be unique and give the class great appeal to those who like playing around with blocking..

But I don't know.. any improvement would be good.