"Odyssey of The Summoner" is OUT!! Find it here...

[nekarcos]

The "(your name) is voracious, but (target) knows no fear!" message can get seriously spammy. I'm getting about 30 per round against some bosses with my hydra.

Done. I was kinda worried about that, to be honest...

[Toles of Maine Exits]

Drakelings and "Summons" are the same thing: "Party Members"-- Only one is A LOT less temporary than the other, heh...
But yeah, the Fire Drake player might want the Drakelings to help them with this HUGE blockade of enemies in front of them, but they won't "spawn in" until everything has been cleared out (putting the Fire Drake between a rock and a hard place).

Could you put a check in to see if there's enough space without walls in between to spawn the drakelings naturally, and if not to spawn them in a "stream" like I defined (admittedly amateurishly)? That way it only works if they would already not be able to help with a blockade because they would already be stuck?

Not to mention the ways the player might abuse this... For example, the player may purposely force Drakelings to remain despawned simply by not moving-- Allowing them to bypass the danger of Drakelings getting caught in the crossfire (which I ALWAYS want to be a constant danger for Fire Drake).There are also VARIOUS things that "can't happen" if the Drakeling doesn't exist-- It doesn't get EXP... It doesn't get inspired... And a lot of "Emotional" parameters don't update if they're not there.

In general, it's hard to produce an "elegant" solution for this-- That is to say: An implementation that won't create further problems-- Or to use one of my favorite phrases: Quelling this "hydra" of a problem, heh...

It seems to me like the problem solves itself quite elegantly. If the player forces his drakelings to remain despawned, they don't get EXP, they don't get inspired, they don't get ANYTHING! The best sort of balance is "natural" like that in my (again admittedly amateur) opinion.

... But if you want MY advice on the matter: I find the easiest way to deal with this situation is "stair-scumming". Like... Honestly-- If the game is gonna jerk you... Then jerk the game right back! That's my philosophy when it comes to ToME, hahaha...

Since when does a dev recommend scumming? This is a problem with your addon class, I didn't ever see too big of an issue with my necromancers (which is my favorite class to play) because they have enough power to hold on until their minions have either showed up or died and been re-summoned. I understand that you have bigger things to tackle, but I think that completely disregarding it is a mistake. My solution might not be (probably isn't) the best solution, but stair scumming definitely isn't.
No hostility meant, I have nothing but respect for the scope of this addon and the way you have been following through.

(edited for punctuation)

[Micbran]

Stair scumming is an essential tactic in ToME. Cmon. Easiest way to deal with a group of enemies that have good damage. Far more reliable than trying to blast through them or hoping you can teleport and not encounter them later.

[nekarcos]

@Toles of Maine Exits
... You have to understand I am NOT a "developer", per se. I'm a normal guy who happens to be a big enough fan of ToME that he would go as far as creating an entirely new campaign for it. Everything in this add-on is ADDITIONAL content-- None of it is canon-- None of it is required for playing ToME.

That said, you have to stop asking me about this because the issue with how actors spawn into the zone has NOTHING to do with "Odyssey of The Summoner"-- This is a "Tales of Maj'eyal" problem. Fixing it via my add-on would be inefficient, because it would not help anyone else.

I'm sounding a bit harsh right now, but I MUST make it clear to you: It is, simply, not an "OoTS" problem-- It's a "ToME" problem. Go tell Stuntofthelitter or DarkGod about it so that they can propagate a fix to EVERYONE'S games-- It's pointless ONLY to fix this in MY add-on...




@Micbran
That, and DarkGod has already implemented anti-stairscumming rules (enemies heal for 10% of their resources and such for each turn you spend outside their level-- And EVERY talent comes off cooldown if you spend even ONE turn outside their level).

... It's honestly pretty hard to "effectively" stairscum, hahaha...

[Toles of Maine Exits]

@Toles of Maine Exits
... You have to understand I am NOT a "developer", per se. I'm a normal guy who happens to be a big enough fan of ToME that he would go as far as creating an entirely new campaign for it. Everything in this add-on is ADDITIONAL content-- None of it is canon-- None of it is required for playing ToME.

That said, you have to stop asking me about this because the issue with how actors spawn into the zone has NOTHING to do with "Odyssey of The Summoner"-- This is a "Tales of Maj'eyal" problem. Fixing it via my add-on would be inefficient, because it would not help anyone else.

I'm sounding a bit harsh right now, but I MUST make it clear to you: It is, simply, not an "OoTS" problem-- It's a "ToME" problem. Go tell Stuntofthelitter or DarkGod about it so that they can propagate a fix to EVERYONE'S games-- It's pointless ONLY to fix this in MY add-on...

You're not being harsh man, I was pushing a little too hard, wasn't I? I meant no ill will, I actually really like your addon and think you might be one of the best "amateur" devs (I hesitate to say modder or fan because of the skill involved) for this game. I had an idea for a fix that was instigated by your thread, and my fervor towards that fix became directed toward your thread instead. sorry and thank you for shutting me down in the most pleasant way you could have (and for showing me I miiight have gotten a little carried away oops).

[nekarcos]

@Toles of Maine Exits
No problem-- I still appreciate you asking about it and bringing it to my attention though-- If I come across a convenient solution, I'll DEFINITELY implement it post-haste-- But, for now... All I can do is pray to the gods... The "Dark" gods, heheheh...

[nekarcos]

Update on Fire Drake bubble run:

~ And so, we embark again on our journey... This time, we tackle the more "horrible" places in the world-- Starting with "The Ruined Dungeon"-- A place that tends to be an utter WILD CARD when it comes to enemy spawns-- And, of course, the nesting ground of "The Worm That Walks"... Let's see how terrible this goes, hm?

- Brute-forced the pedestals-- As I imagine everybody does. (Why solve puzzles when I could kill things instead? It's like if I came into school and my teacher said: "You can write this 1000 word Essay-- Or you can go do 20 push-ups. Which do you prefer?"). Besides, sometimes you can get "unusual" ingredients from them (particularly, "Wyrm" materials)-- Or even cause "special" enemies to spawn-- And I LOVE fighting those!

*** ToME bug: Normally, enemies spawned by the pedestals are supposed to be given an EXP Worth of 0 and item drop of NIL... But if the enemy has "escorts" (Drakes/Wyrms, Bandit Lords, etc...), the "escorts" aren't given an EXP worth of 0-- Effectively STILL allowing you to farm the pedestals for levels and items.
*** Honestly, I've known about this bug for AGES (4+ years), before I realized I was getting 0 EXP for what I spawned in. I guess I was wondering if anybody else knew about it, heh...

- "Ruined Dungeon" went wonderfully-- No problems whatsoever!


~ Wow! I totally forgot about the Golem Graveyard! I usually go here around Lv15-20 for some free EXP. Now unfortunately, everything is locked to Lv20 and won't yield much experience... Ho-hum.

- NEVERMIND! A meteor crashed in the graveyard! I'LL BE TAKING THAT PRODIGY REQUIREMENT, THANK YOU!
*** Note: There is actually a "natural" way for Fire Drake to experience a meteoric crash WITHOUT in-game events, heheheh...


~ It's time to talk to all the alchemists... Let's see what I've got...

*** Now for some engine trickery! Did you know that shop items DO NOT generate until you enter the town? Because I have (purposely) made an effort NOT to EVER visit any towns, "Last Hope" is going to generate some very high-end stuff! Let's see what I can find...

- The Lost Merchant only had a "Staff of Destruction"... Darn. His rings and amulets suck too-- Though, he IS selling 2 Quartz-- An excellent anti-stun item for Fire Drakes! Maybe Melinda's dad is feeling a little more generous...?

- He gave me "Storm Bringer's Gauntlets". *fart sound*


~ So, examining my list of ingredients, it looks like I (as usual) have NO chance of getting ANY good potions until I come back from the East. (I don't know why I even bother to check anymore)

~ So my next destination is the Spellblaze Scar.
*** I'm going to leave Celia for last, and I won't be touching the Mummy Crypt until I come back from the east (since it scales all the way up to Lv50). Strangely enough, I got absolutely NO special dungeon pops (particularly, the "Noxious Caldera")-- But for "testing" purposes, I will be "teleporting" myself into these zones anyways. I must produce a "wholesome" Fire Drake experience by trying EVERYTHING out whatsoever. Of course, concerns about becoming overleveled are well-founded. After all, I am actually taking an "optimal experience" route that guarantees I will have Level 30 BEFORE reaching "The Master"-- Which makes a HUGE difference in that fight!

- Now, I'm just saying... But "Heat Sink" makes this zone... PRETTY EASY.

- Uh-oh-- Map #2 has cultists! This is both great AND bad...

- "The Grand Corruptor" has shown up! He Fearscapes me-- But fortunately, being in a horribly hellish land of fire means very little to a Fire Drake. So, after much benny-hilling-- My "Aura of Silence" finally disables his Fearscape-- And that is that.

- Alright, time to summon Shasully... Whatever-whatsit. Now, I don't entirely understand how this mechanic works (for the sake of "preserving the magic", I haven't looked into it), but sometimes, her crown is STRONGER than normal (higher stats, etc...) and I'm not sure if this is caused by allowing her to arrive at maximum level or if it doesn't matter at all. Either way, I decided to confront her at MAXIMUM power-- For science, you see! As such, I kill only 1 cultist... And we wait.

- WHOA! She spawned RIGHT next to me!
- BAM! Blasted with the Silencing Torque-- 6 turns of NOTHING. Finally unsilences-- gets an "Aura of Silence" as well. Unsilences again-- Drops her meteor shower-- Does about 50% to all my Drakelings (NOTHING to me)-- She's done. So far, Fire Drake is feeling a bit too easy, huh? Or maybe "Aura of Silence" shouldn't be so readily available in the "Tyrant" talent tree... It honestly feels like the most powerful thing Fire Drake has, and is a SERIOUS game-changer even at Talent Level 1...

*** BUG: "Crown of Burning Pain" is currently not considered as a "Crown", and does not correctly cause "a certain event to trigger" for Fire Drake.
- Because of this bug-- I'm going to "hack" it into a crown (again, for the sake of science). To clarify, this triggers a special "Reflections" event with your Drakelings (given that you met the right conditions) upon picking up the object.


*** This feels like a good stopping point! More later!

playerlll-20160904-030032.txt

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PS: For anyone wondering why I'm posting these "stories" of my gameplay, it's because the "playability" of my classes have FREQUENTLY come into question-- To the point where people were convinced I was cheating my way through the game. I want to show my approach through the game to not only prove their legitimacy-- But to also give people an idea of "how" the class should be played. "Fire Drake" is a rather "beguiling" class at the moment, and I want to show everyone that, by being very simple and methodical, it's not very complex at all!

Oh, I figure people want to see my Drakelings too, huh? Unfortunately, you can't "Character Dump" non-player characters, so I'll list what talents they currently know:

Isovau:
- ALL of "Fiery Breath" @ TL6
- Glide, Low Flight, Wingbeat @ TL6
- "2 UNUSUAL talents" @ TL6

Huuloc:
- ALL of "Fiery Breath" @ TL6
- Glide, Low Flight, Wingbeat @ TL6
- "2 UNUSUAL talents" @ TL6

*** These two are "well-behaved" from the start of the game, so teaching them "correctly" was easy. Drenng, however...

Drenng:
- Breath of Fire @ TL2 (god dammit.)
- Renewing Flames @ TL5 (... Close enough.)
- Consuming Fire & Torrential Blaze @ TL6
- "2 UNUSUAL talents" @ TL6
- Glide, Low Flight, Wingbeat @ TL6

*** As you can see, I made sure they were all "Wing & Breath" style-- Which made handling them A LOT easier (rather than trying to teach 3 trees at once, I'm only teaching 2-- And I only RECENTLY started teaching "Wings" talents)

As usual, cheers! And thanks for even giving me and my blithering the light of day!

[tabs]

Well my Nightmare attempt as Hydra ended in Gorbat pride. The boss had about 100+ melee retaliation damage and 50%+ resistance to my breaths. It did not go well.

Some thoughts:

• Recuperate tree still seems underwhelming. I put points in the first two skills hoping they'd catch my interest, but they never did. Healing from life leech effects is a more powerful strategy in my opinion.
• Blighting is a major, major hassle in Nightmare. I had to literally return to the summoner to get de-blighted three times in the course of clearing Rak'shor Pride.
• Tear Apart is really nice in the late game.
• It took me a long time to realize that Delta Formation only speed up one of each type of attack. Perhaps this could be highlighted even more?
• I took the hats/necklaces prodigy. If I had to make the choice again I would have taken Draconic Will instead.
• Spoiler: I betrayed the summoner to the fortress for the orb, but made up with the summoner later. The fortress orb was super lame. +10% nature/cold? Do any avatars even do nature or cold damage? I was rather hoping this option would be better than the normal route, not worse.
  
• I'm not sure I could win unless I had some way of stripping sustains from enemies. Melee retaliation ones in particular are brutal.

[nekarcos]

@tabs
Good stuff! A nightmare run, eh? Let's see what we can gather from this experience...

PS (at the start of a message??): In the past, I said I didn't want to test for other difficulties-- But Hydra has already proven its "effectiveness" in normal difficulty, so I don't mind seeing some higher modes now (like "Nightmare", as you have already been doing). Just want to be clear on this!


RE: Recuperate
Hmmm... It tends to falter against non-physical damage... Like, REALLY falter. I recently buffed the healing generated by secondary damages, but it seems it's still not quite "effective" enough... What do you think about this?

RE: Blighting is scary
Oh ya? Heh heh heh... That's a good thing. It seemed this mechanic was going to naught in standard "Normal" difficulty gameplay. However, it seems it interacts VERY differently in higher difficulties... I'll be super interested in knowing how "reasonable" this is in standard play, and (if its too ridiculous) I might even upscale the threshold based on the chosen difficulty. Keep me posted about this!

RE: Tear Apart
What was the highest damage you could yield against a target who didn't blow up immediately? I never actually tested the "maximum" potential of damage (at least, not in the same way I tested that Lv30 Ritch earlier)

RE: Delta Formation clarification
Aye, I'll mess with the wording a bit. It might be a bit dangerous if someone doesn't understand how it works...

RE: Hats/Necklaces
Don't worry, I have a GREAT "buff" planned for this talent, heheheh...

RE: <Spoilers>
As you (should) know, the "true" power of an orb is ONLY drawn out when its true owner is wielding it, heheheh... Now, you and I both know "Rimebark" isn't a "playable" character... So perhaps, you should try to "acquire a particular quality it had" before wearing the orb...?

... Also, about "blighted" orbs... There is A LOT planned for this... Like, A LOT. What you've seen is the bare bones, so it might have been somewhat underwhelming...


RE: Ouch! Spiny...
So, not even "Tolerance" was able to save you...? THIS encounter was PRECISELY why Tolerance has a PERCENT reduce AND a FLAT reduce. I expected the player to suddenly have to fight an opponent with something obnoxious like 300 melee retaliation-- But I suppose this wasn't enough? I might have to shift the numbers so that PERCENT is SIGNIFICANTLY higher than FLAT so that THESE encounters aren't brick walls for Hydra...

[nekarcos]

Another Fire Drake bubble run:

*** And back in we go. Technically, in this run, I haven't "unlocked" any of those other zones, so it would "taint" the run if I continued as though I had. As such, we'll call this a "what-if" scenario-- I'll be unloading everything I accomplished during these zones-- They're simply to take notes about the experience and what I encounter (especially how "smooth" it is).

~ The destination is "Noxious Caldera". This place didn't show up for me, so I teleport in and do a run through it!

- DREAMS?!?! AHHHHHHH!!!! (I wonder if dying in the dream counts as a death in my run? Heheh...)
*** SO! When a Fire Drake is paired with 3 Breath Drakelings, the "death in a dream" penalty is QUITE easy to ignore. I think I will add a fun "penalty" to this in the future-- Such that it cannot be abused too easily, heh...

- 20-trillion dreams later-- I reach Mindworm and (quite casually) thrash him. Hm. Darn. In this alternate timeline, I would have gotten a Mummified Egg Sac... That would have been awesome!

*** Oh well. UNLOAD!



*** Huh, that was weird. Alright, so my next target is "Celia". NORMALLY, I REALLY hate doing this quest-- Mainly because the monsters that pop out of the coffins can be HORRIBLY murderous-- And not because they're "strong" or anything-- But because they can roll a powerful weapon with a powerful class... And sometimes, they don't (there are times I've gotten an Archmage-Archer-- It couldn't even shoot arrows because it had a staff...). Anywho, I have NO doubt this is going to be a source of MANY more deaths... *sigh*

*** For reference, "Completion" of "Jogging Memories (Part 3)" requires that you either complete the Mummy Crypt or defeat Celia in the graveyard. I might change this in the future because BOTH areas are demanding A LOT of the player, and I can see if your typical player would prefer NOT to do either.

~ Alright, we're in the graveyard!
*** FUN FACT!!! EACH and EVERY grave in this Graveyard can provide "Inspiration" for a Fire Drake. This is a little protip from me-- And can be SUPER handy if you've been power-levelling your Drakelings and haven't taught them anything (or if a Drakeling died and you made a new one).

- First encounter: A Temporal Warden Vampire. At some point in the fight, it manages to "Taunt" me-- Causing me to go blind to everything around me (this is a feature I added in "Odyssey of The Summoner"). Other than that, it was easy.
*** BUG: OH! Which reminds me-- This actually works on non-OoTS characters as well-- Which isn't right! There's some "leakage" here...

- Archmage Bone Golem. It got silenced IMMEDIATELY and accomplished absolutely nothing afterwards. Easy fight.

- Anorithl Vampire. Not too hard either.

- Doomed Vampire Lord-- He explodes into escorts! Thankfully, vampires are super weak to fire, and I'm getting very lucky with these spawns!

- Arcane Blade Ghoul. Easy!

- Necromancer Master Vampire. A silenced necromancer. GG.

- Doombringer Elder Vampire. Gave me a bit of trouble due to constant Flame Shock effects. (Honestly now, why does "Flame Shock" even work on fire-resistant targets??)

- Bulwark Skeleton Warrior. Smashed him!

- Paradox Mage (I think?) Ghoul. Dealt with.

- Doombringer Skeleton Warrior. Beats my Drakelings up a bit-- But not a problem.

*** Time for Celia herself! She has a tendency to have rather... "Explosive" damage... And I really hate dealing with her.

- Alright-- She smashes me a bit while I try to back my Drakelings AWAY from her nonsense (Huuloc gets caught out-- And is even brought to Anti-Death-- negative HP...). Thankfully, they behave themselves and follow me. Celia turns a corner-- She gets a faceful of SILENCED-- And the rest is pretty one-sided.

*** I have to admit-- This "Silencing" torque I found has been carrying me, and I can only wonder how smooth this would NORMALLY go if I didn't have it. Though, of course, I STILL have "Aura of Silence", and I am simply electing NOT to use it, because the mob is usually dead by the time my torque's silence wears off anyways. In other words: I don't think this is a big deal, really!


*** Alright, let's call it at that! More next time...

playerlll-20160905-021506.txt

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[jenx]

so...... your bubble run identief LOTS of drakelings issues. I must say I feel somewhat vindicated now

what about my suggestion of making the core drakeling talents regular points and not generic points?

I'll try again now that you've made lots of changes.

[nekarcos]

what about my suggestion of making the core drakeling talents regular points and not generic points?

The main reason it's a "Generic Category" is because "Natural Combat" offers you many extra generic points. If it were a "Class Category", it would get in the way of learning actual HELPFUL, DAMAGING talents (because you'd be spending all your talent points on "Dragon Brood" every level-- Which sucks).

[jenx]

ok, to give my little drakelings the best chance, I have maxxed the tree Dragon Brood, currently 5/5/5/3. Idealists says says drakelings "will always inherit talents from you at level 5".

First, this is ambiguous - does this mean

1. whatever talents they learn, they learn at talent level 5? If so, it is broken, because they learn talents at random levels.
2. Or does it mean, whenever you learn a talent to level 5 (meaning 4/5 I presume), they learn the same talent, but at a random level? If so, it is also broken, because I have learned several talents to level 5 and none of my 3 drakelings know any of these talents. They have learned other talents I have at a low level.

Second, Parental Bond says they learn +2 of my level, yet none of them ever gets higher than my level, so this seems broken, as I've kept them alive for a good while.

Third, why should I invest in Observation and Anti-death in Parental Bond, as my drakelings all have these talents straight off? There is no explanation of the benefit levels 4 and 5 of this talent offer.

Finally, what benefit is there for dumping an extra cat point into this tree? It says talents can be learned at level 6 - is this possible?

[jenx]

OMG !!!!!!!!!!!

I gave my drakelings tentacled totems and they USE them !!!!! This is brilliant

[jenx]

ARRRRGGGGGGGHHHHH

!@#$@#$%@#$^@#$^@$^@#$^@@#$&@

I got the water breathing gear FINALLY at Lake Nur, but you don't explain that you have to EQUIP it

So my three beautiful drakelings died Q@#$@!#$%@#$^#$%@#$%@#

this is SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO annoying.

please please please make your explanations clearer