nekarcos wrote:@phantomglider
Alright, alright, I getcha.
Ritches are amazing melees at the start of the game, I get it!
No no-- Just kidding! Okay, but here's the thing:
Ritches AREN'T melees at the start of the game-- Or at least, very "safe" ones. You'll notice that MOST of a Ritch's "Wild-Heart" arsenal are techniques that want it to keep its distance, whilst "Wild-Child" are techniques that make it want to get close. To summarize:
It's up to YOU to decide how you will play safely, but the way you will play "dangerous" is set in stone.
After that, you'll get "Advanced" talent trees that will compel you to get a little closer to your opponent by offering huge rewards for your risks. Until then,
I REALLY don't recommend trying to be too much of a "melee" at the start of the game. As I said before:
You are STILL a ranged avatar.
RE: Every race starts with 1 generic point
... Holy crap. I never even noticed this!
I ALWAYS play Cornac, and despise all the other races, hahaha...
Alright,
from now on, each "Monstrosity" will start with 1 point in their first racial talent. WOW... I had no clue!
RE: Accuracy or Power
You have to understand Ritch is a "Dexterity" class, so it should
naturally get and/or find accuracy. Also,
there really is no excuse for "not" having accuracy because you get the entire Natural Combat tree.
As for power-- Seriously...
Is Strongarm not good enough for you?? Gosh!
As for armor-- Listen. I'm sounding like a broken record now.
EVERYTHING YOU ARE ASKING FOR IS IN "NATURAL COMBAT". BE PATIENT-- LEVEL UP.
Are Brown Mouses too much for you to handle at level 1??
Anyways, here:
ACCURACY:
> Ritch's starting, untouched Accuracy was 11.
> Brawler's starting, untouched Accuracy was 8.
> Shadowblade's starting, untouched Accuracy was 8.
> Rogue's starting, untouched Accuracy was 8.
~ The talent "Combat Accuracy" provides 12 Accuracy at Talent Level 1
~ The talent "Eagle Eyes" provides 10 Accuracy at Talent Level 1
POWER:
> Ritch's starting, untouched Physical Power is 11
> Brawler's starting, untouched Physical Power is 13
> Rogue's starting, untouched Physical Power is 11
> Shadowblade's starting, untouched Physical Power is 10
~ "Weapon/Dagger Mastery" provides 13 Physical Power (+25% weapon damage) at Talent Level 1.
~ "Savage Strength" provides 10 Physical Power (and 1% Crit chance) at Talent Level 1.
*** But let's not forget about "Strongarm", which provides +50% weapon damage!
*** The difference is minimal, but "Ritch" has an advantage since it gets more with less investment
RE: Can't melee for Stinger
I dunno what you're picking fights with, but you probably shouldn't. You seem to understand the numbers well enough,
so don't wade into melee combat against something big if you only have a 10% chance of procing. However, if you DO get that sting to go off,
it is almost always CERTAIN death for whatever you hit-- Bosses included. Risk-reward, take a chance, etc...
Oh, and further more:
The chance of stinging occurs for EACH melee attack (you attack twice), so it's technically HIGHER than listed (10% Chance w/ two attacks = 19% chance).
RE: Flame Spit
Let me dump some numbers onto you. Are you ready for this? Here we go:
-- I have hacked "Acidic Spray" onto a Ritch at Talent Level 1. I'm attacking a target dummy. Let's take a look at the numbers:
-- Level 1 Ritch, 12 Willpower, 13 Mind Power (an untouched, just-born Ritch)
> Spent 3 Equilibrium. Used Acidic Spray. Dealt 49 Acid damage. Acidic Spray is on cooldown for 6 more turns.
> Spent 5 Equilibrium. Used Flame Spit. Dealt 11 Fire damage.
> Spent 5 Equilibrium. Used Flame Spit. Dealt 11 Fire damage.
> Spent 5 Equilibrium. Used Flame Spit. Dealt 11 Fire damage.
> Spent 5 Equilibrium. Used Flame Spit. Dealt 11 Fire damage.
> Spent 5 Equilibrium. Used Flame Spit. Dealt 11 Fire damage.
> Spent 5 Equilibrium. Used Flame Spit. Dealt 11 Fire damage. Acidic Spray is now ready.
*** Conclusion: "Flamespit" STILL outdamaged Acidic Spray, although the cost was very high.
-- Level 10 Ritch, 34 Willpower, 26 Mind Power (every point in Willpower, nothing else touched)
> Spent 3 Equilibrium. Used Acidic Spray. Dealt 60 Acid damage. Acidic Spray is on cooldown for 6 more turns.
> Spent 5 Equilibrium. Used Flame Spit. Dealt 20 Fire damage.
> Spent 5 Equilibrium. Used Flame Spit. Dealt 20 Fire damage.
> Spent 5 Equilibrium. Used Flame Spit. Dealt 20 Fire damage.
> Spent 5 Equilibrium. Used Flame Spit. Dealt 20 Fire damage.
> Spent 5 Equilibrium. Used Flame Spit. Dealt 20 Fire damage.
> Spent 5 Equilibrium. Used Flame Spit. Dealt 20 Fire damage. Acidic Spray is now ready.
*** Conclusion: "Flamespit" has improved approximately 90%, while Acidic Spray has improved 20%.
> Raising both talent levels to 5 now <
-- Level 10 Ritch, 34 Willpower, 26 Mind Power (talents are now Level 5)
> Spent 3 Equilibrium. Used Acidic Spray. Dealt 143 Acid damage. Acidic Spray is on cooldown for 6 more turns.
> Spent 5 Equilibrium. Used Flame Spit. Dealt 62 Fire damage.
> Spent 5 Equilibrium. Used Flame Spit. Dealt 62 Fire damage.
> Spent 5 Equilibrium. Used Flame Spit. Dealt 62 Fire damage.
> Spent 5 Equilibrium. Used Flame Spit. Dealt 62 Fire damage.
> Spent 5 Equilibrium. Used Flame Spit. Dealt 62 Fire damage.
> Spent 5 Equilibrium. Used Flame Spit. Dealt 62 Fire damage. Acidic Spray is now ready.
*** Conclusion: "Flamespit" has improved by 300%, while Acidic Spray has improved approximately 150%.
*Standing there, arms folded, tapping feet...*
It actually looks like it becomes MORE of a caster AFTER the start of the game. Strange, isn't it?
RE: Astronomical Damage
It's not "astronomical"... Yet. Ritch hasn't had a chance to "blossom" into the death machine that it later becomes.
But anyways, here's a few more numbers. Let's compare some Level 1 damage output between the different vanilla classes:
*** Note that ALL listed talents are LEVEL ONE.
-- Level 1 Cornac Shadowblade; has "Lethality", "Dagger Mastery", and is sustaining Shadow Combat:
> Standard attack deals 16 physical, 6 darkness, 8 physical, 6 darkness (24 Physical + 12 Darkness = 36 damage total)
*** Remark: Ninjas are cheaters. Look at everyone else's numbers!
-- Level 1 Cornac Brawler; has "Unarmed Mastery":
> Performed a "Double Strike", dealing 12 Physical, 12 Physical (24 damage total)
-- Level 1 Cornac Rogue; has "Dagger Mastery" and "Lethality". HACKED IN "Vile Poisons" for the sake of testing:
> Standard attack deals 16 physical, 8 physical (24 damage total)
> Vile Poisons causes 11 Nature damage for 6 turns (66 damage total)
*** Took a look at the code-- The chance of proccing is 25% per attack at TL1. At TL5, the chance is 45%. The chance diminishes for each poison they have.
*** Also note that "Cunning/Poisons" is a Level 10 ADVANCED talent tree, so I'm cheating a bit here!
-- Level 1 Cornac Archer; has "Bow Mastery" and nothing more
> Used "Shoot"-- Arrow deals 22 Physical damage
> Melee'd the dummy for fun-- Archer-fist deals 5 Physical damage
-- Level 1 Cornac Summoner; uses Level 1 "War Hound" and Level 1 "Ritch" to attack:
> War Hound deals 24 Physical damage
> Ritch uses Flame Spit; deals 20 Fire damage
*** Now, the important comparison:
-- Level 1 Mantis Ritch; "Strongarm" is active and nothing more:
> Used "Flamespit", dealt 11 Fire damage
> Performed an ARMED melee attack (starting Longsword+Dagger), dealing 15 Physical, 12 Physical (27 damage total)
> Removed weapons-- UNARMED melee attack (Hookclaw+Hookclaw), dealing 11 Physical, 11 Physical (22 damage total)
> "Pernicious Needle" triggers-- Initial sting deals 12 Blight. Dummy proceeds to take 11 Blight for 5 more turns (67 damage total)
*** The chance of a sting proccing is 6.7% at TL1. The chance is 8.9% at TL5. This looks bad because it requires Dexterity and Physical Crit to increase, while Vile Poisons does not. The chance of proccing DOES NOT diminish for each additional disease.
*** And JUST for GOOD measure:
-- Level 1 Cornac Archmage; went and learned "Staff Combat", and learned "Channel Staff"
> Used "Channel Staff"-- It deals 6 Light damage (I had a "Light" staff at the time)
> Reconfigured staff to "Physical"-- It deals 7 Physical damage (the number pops up as 8 though)
> Smacked the dummy with the staff-- It deals 8 Physical damage
*** Deliberation: "SUSTAINED ranged damage sits perfectly in between the two major ranged classes in ToME. Melee damage sits IN LINE with the Dexterity-based double-attack classes. Melee damage sits in line with Summoner melee damage, but somewhat behind Summoner ranged damage. Lingering damage falls in line with standard numbers, however, proc chance is lower than normal-- BUT, it has the potential to stack indefinitely."
*** Conclusion: "Ritch's starting damage falls in line with ToME's standard levels of starting damage, and will only continue to grow stronger and stronger at a RAPID, ACCELERATED pace."
... So, having nerded this out a bit and produced VISIBLE numbers, you can CLEARLY see the problem with Ritch IS NOT its starting damage.
I would like you to stop attacking that.
If what you're asking for is a set of powerful go-to talents like "Whirlwind" or "Shield Bash",
Ritch doesn't get those early on because of its hybrid capabilities. I am asking for a more "clever" style of play.
In melee combat,
Ritch only knows how to bump-- But it bumps HARD. In ranged combat,
it tears down defenses and prepares the opponent for a single killing blow. This playstyle might be what is throwing you for such a loop.
PS: Furthermore-- Everything tested here DOES NOT factor in the *enormous* amount of SCALING Ritch gets with every talent and every weapon it gets. Ritch, by far, has INSANE scaling, and as long as you are not whimsical about how you spend points (IE: BEING the Glass Cannon that it wants to be), your damage output will "skyrocket", just as calculated-- And then, your damage really WILL be "astronomical", heheheh...
If this isn't good enough, just give me the word and I'll bring you back a damage test for late game damage as well, if you're not convinced.
Ho, you want some numbers? Well, I don't know how to hack in stuff, but I can start actual characters and make some notes:
Thalore Rogue:
Stats: Put all 3 points into Dexterity.
Generic Talents: Start with 1 point in Wrath of the Woods, Combat Accuracy, and Dagger Mastery. Extra generic goes to Lacerating Strikes.
Class Talents: Start with Dual Strike, Stealth, Trap Mastery, and Lethality, with one more to spend. Full melee, so remove the point from Trap Mastery, and put one in each of Dual Strike and Dirty Fighting.
Stats: 23 Accuracy, 23 P. Power, 4 Defense, 2 Armor, 103 hp.
Fighting trash mob: Bump for 16, 12; 28 damage total. Dual Strike hits for a good 40 damage (15ish, 25ish). In theory, and over a long enough fight, Lacerating Strikes increases our damage by 1/16, but let's ignore it.
Combat rotation: Dual Strike, when the stun wears off Dirty Fighting, stuns for 8 turns out of a 12-turn rotation. Takes (2/3*50+1/3*100) 66.6% damage, compared to what it "ought" to take, because of stuns. Then he also gets to heal 60 hp every 12 turns because of the Regeneration Infusion, and if he gets Stunned or Pinned it can use his Wild infusion to clear it.
Mantis Ritch:
Ignore the pseudo Wild of Rabbit's Foot, ignore the Movement infusion of Elusiveness, ignore the uncontrolled Phase Door of Buzz-Off, we want to melee, so we put our starting Generic in Eagle Eyes, unlock Stinger and put a Category Point in it, Extravagancy, and Natural Combat. Put two class points into Stinger and one more into Strong-Arm. 3 stat points into Dexterity. This is the absolute best case for level 1 Ritch melee.
(We put the point into Eagle Eye instead of Savage Strength because otherwise we miss a ton. I could try running it with Strength again, but I really don't feel like bothering with miss chances.)
Stats: 22 accuracy, 11 p.power, 3 defense, 0 armor, 155 hp.
Combat rotation: Turn Strong-Arm and a Needle (probably Pernicious) and bump. Turn on your other stinger if the first manages to proc - the chance is 8.3% per attack, or 15.9% per bump. 80-ish damage on a proc, that's about 13 damage per attack, averaged over a long period of time and ignoring overkill.
In the starting fight... against a Spellcaster (2 armor) I hit for 20-24 damage. Which is to say, less damage than the Rogue even with Strong-Arm on and not using Dual Strike. 35ish counting the Needle procs, or about Dual Strike-tier damage, ignoring overkill and the possibility of using the less damaging sting or having both on cooldown. And if I've busted my weapons, those attacks are going to do damage to me, which I can't afford because I don't have any way to heal except resting for dozens of turns. If I get stunned, or pinned in range of an archer, I die. If I turn off Strong-Arm, my damage halves.
At level 2 I can put another point in Strong-Arm and a point into Savage Stength and Natural Armor. Now I do have genuinely good melee damage (~50 per bump) at the cost of wrecking my weapons quickly. With hookclaws, that's about 40 damage per attack at a cost of taking 14ish damage each time.
But if I level up the Rogue... I get to put a point in Dagger Mastery and a point in Dual Strike. Now I have 29 p. power, and the stun lasts for 10 turns out of a 12-turn rotation. Bump attacks do 40 damage or so, Dual Strike does 60ish. and the Rogue takes (50*10/12+100*2/12=) 58% of the damage it "should", completely ignoring all the damage saved by keeping enemy talents from cooling down.
Of course, this is all with the starting gear and pure melee. The Rogue can do something like going out to Derth and buying a better dagger or healing infusion, inflating his damage and survivability, where a Ritch wouldn't bother because it wouldn't be cost-effective. The Rogue has five more slots to put gear in (Body, Belt, one Ring, Boots, Gloves). If the Rogue gets a good equipment drop he is much more likely to be able to use it, and if it's a dagger can keep using it for as long as he likes. And if you want to bring Flame Spit into it, well, I can detail all the ways it would be so much better to kite enemies onto Explosion Traps if you'd like...
End result: A Ritch who has dumped every single point they have into maxing out their melee has fairly similar or slightly superior melee damage compared to a rogue at the cost of having less ability to upgrade with cash and item drops, no sustain, no stealth, worse non-melee options, no CC, and no CC mitigation. Try fighting any reasonably deadly encounter - Skeleton Warrior + Skeleton Archer, an OOD Armored Skeleton Warrior, a Skeleton Mage in the darkness on the other side of the room, a pile of 5 or 6 thief-type enemies who catch you out of a chokepoint, Prox + 2 troll buddies, Norgos + two poisonous snakes... and your melee is not going to cut it; you are going to get worn down and killed before you finish off all of your opposition.
That's what I mean when I say that Ritches cannot handle melee.
And this is in comparison to a class that
is getting reworked in part because it has a bad start.
If you want to see what HARD bumping looks like, I could test out a Doombringer.
About the Acid Spray vs. Flame Spit comparison you made there... Acid Spray's cooldown decreases as you level it, and it also turns into a beam. And also lets you kite, or use Regeneration infusions, while it's cooling down, whereas you have to sit still if you want to keep using Flame Spit. These are really big considerations, and can easily be worth triple or quadruple the "face" damage.
"Castery" vs. "melee" isn't a matter of straight-up how much damage you output, it's a matter of
relative advantage. Ritches at the very beginning of the game cannot handle serious opposition in melee, so they have to kite with Flame Spit and Buzz-Off. Thus they are very castery. Later, even though their damage from Flame Spit has increased, they are also more capable of killing things in melee, and they have not picked up other spells with higher spike damage to add to their casting rotation, so they are less castery and more hybrid.
(I also have no idea why you were comparing the Ritch to an Archmage using
channel staff of all things. You can't even bother casting Flame once every three turns and just standing still otherwise?)
