"Odyssey of The Summoner" is OUT!! Find it here...

[Cathbald]

Well, Tannen IS completely optional since you can get back east without ever talking to him.

Anyway, I followed this thread for 2 weeks while on vacation and now I can finally try it for myself. I'll probably start playing tonight and give feedback as soon as I have some ^^ This addon sounds great

[phantomglider]

@phantomglider
RE: Ritch is not ranged?
Actually... They DID start out with that... In fact, EVERYTHING that you're mentioning was true. However, a recent experiment I started (called "Volatile" changes) caused Ritch to start with several talent trees locked, but also having more category points to choose from. This was to determine what talent trees people prefer, and where they would magnetize given the greater deal of freedom-- All in an attempt to figure out where to go with Ritch next.

... However, it turns out you came at a bad time, and so, this didn't make any sense to you at all! That said though, I kinda expect players to read up on my Patch Notes so that mix-ups like this don't happen...


RE: Flamespit is weak
At first glance, yes. However, it only truly shines when mixed with melee combat and later Firestarter talents. Otherwise, it's mostly useful for peppering down foes with all the Equilibrium you PROBABLY won't be using anyways (Ritch is very light on Equilibrium usage, so it MOSTLY goes to this talent).

Damage-wise-- It scales QUITE effectively on Willpower. However, I can't allow it to have the same power level as "Flame" or "Acid Spray" because of its 0 cooldown and increase in speed/power later on. Besides, the base 14 damage is A LOT at the beginning of the game when you're encountering tiny little rabbits and mice, or large tufts of poison ivy. Really, you should see it more like that, heheh...

As for that 95 damage stuff-- Those are "mage-y" types of classes though. It's not really fair comparing them to something that relies a bit more on melee combat than usual. Also, the reason a summoned Flamespitter Ritch even does that kind of damage is because it's a TEMPORARY source of damage output that relies on line of sight. If you've played enough Summoner, you'll know Flamespitters reward you for good positioning with high damage-per-turn, but do absolutely NOTHING otherwise.

... But yeah, this is not a temporary summon. This is a playable class. I can't just make it behave EXACTLY like its counterpart-- For balance reasons. At the very most, I can "imitate" its behavior-- But you will need to build in a VERY particular way if you want to be as powerful as what its imitating, as well as sentient.


RE: The equilibrium cost?
A summoned ritch shouldn't encounter equilibrium failures, because SPAMMING flame spits is its whole purpose!
However, for a "real" Ritch", the cost needs to be high so that you will very quickly encounter equilibrium failures (which is a MUCH "softer" limitation than the exhausting of conventional resources, such as Mana or Vim). Equilibrium needs to be expensive to encourage minimal usage-- But NOT limit the usage. That said, you can get more than 15 Flamespits out before the failure rate really becomes any kind of hindrance... Isn't that enough?

But anyways, the only thing holding a Ritch back from going absolutely nuts with Flamespit is their Equilibrium Drainage rate-- Which is something that improves with Wild Power-- Which improves with your level. After much experimentation, I determined the current cost was a sweet spot where it could still be useful in early game WITHOUT allowing the Ritch to endlessly decimate everything in sight later on.


RE: Combat Accuracy freebie??
"Natural Combat" is a bit special because it gives you 1 free Generic Point every level. I would say 50 Generic points is a much better gift than 1, don't you think?

RE: Basic attacks shouldn't reduce durability
Wouldn't that be nice? The dream, really!
But sadly, no. Ritch will never be as competent at handling weaponry as a humanoid would. This would allow you to "rely" on weapons you find-- Which defeats the flavor of this class. Remember: You're an animal-- Not a human. You can't really wield blades that well, if at all. You can go ahead and use the weapon-- But it will break, and then you will have to rely on your own natural abilities-- Hence: "Impermanence".

... Besides, if you need a weapon to cut down worthless enemies, look no further! Use your unarmed hookclaws! You have a quick-swap set for that exact reason, after all!


RE: Durability UI
That's asking a lot from a solo developer... Let's just leave it at that.

RE: Durability loss based on damage
... Three problems:
- Durability loss would become inconsistent and harder to describe. You might accidentally break a weapon because you hit harder than expected.
- Why exactly would damage affect durability loss? If you ask me, attacking someone clad in armor would probably break my weapon without hurting them at all.
- This would PUNISH the player for having good damage output! That and weapons would turn into "damage potions" since there would be a very particular amount of damage each weapon could cause before breaking. This is something me and nsrr talked about already.

Overall, Impermanent Weapons are supposed to be "extensions" of your already-existing claws. They're not intended to "improve" upon your standard attack-- But rather, provide a new flavor for your standard attack. For example, "Projection" weapons are easily my favorite, because they give me a 10-range melee attack every 8 turns or so-- Which is INCREDIBLE for Ritch!

Expecting longstanding players who are keeping up with your work to read the patch notes is reasonable, expecting a new player to hunt for things that are spread out over a 40 page thread is not.

On Flame Spit:
Wyrmic and Sun Paladin are not very caster-like classes. I was not comparing Flame Spit to a summoned Ritch's flame spit, I was comparing Flame Spit to the action of a summoner casting Ritch Flamespitter. Flame Spit fails when compared to other direct damage effects in terms of action economy, in terms of damage-per-turn, in terms of spike damage, in terms of long-fight sustainability. It's fine against rats and poison ivy and wolves, of course. But so is wizard melee. 19 damage per turn, at the cost of your action every turn, is not fine against, say, Norgos's 300 hp, or The Shade of Kor'pul's Arcane Thrust-Freeze combo, or a pack of four 150hp trolls who surprise you from around a corner, or a rare monster with Berserker skills that Rushes and then stuns you, or the encounter you start in where there are a good three dozen 100-hp humans, many with ranged attacks of their own, who are rapidly killing everything you might use as a meat shield. Abilities have to be useful in the most dangerous tier of fight you are expected to run into, or they are not useful at all. If the reason Flame Spit is good is because its damage eventually ramps up, it eventually becomes cheaper than your equilibrium regen, and it eventually starts synergizing with a bunch of your other skills, find a way to make it eventually weaker. Like turning Gatling Fire into a stance that increases the cost of Flame Spit. (I'm honestly not sure that would be necessary even if you buffed Flame Spit. Sustained raw DPS on a single target has to get really astronomical before it starts breaking the game.)

On early stats:
A million dollars given to me a hundred years from now is not as good a gift as enough money to pay for this month's rent given to me today. Which is to say, there is a certain minimum of stats you need to play around with melee combat, and Ritches don't meet the bar in the beginning of the game, no matter how many generics they're going to get later on. When you start a new Ritch, they don't have points in their racial talents, Combat Accuracy, (weaponclass) Mastery, or Armor Training, which puts them 3-4 generics behind, and then they need to spend generics to cover for their inability to wear most equipment and their lack of starting infusions. They don't have the durability and status effect talents that the real melee classes do - they have no equivalent of Dirty Fighting or Shield Bash to control dangerous enemies, and no equivalent of Healing Light or even Regeneration Infusion to keep them going when their face is getting pounded. I'm sure that once you get to the mid teens-early twenties, you've gotten out of the generic hole you started in, and your damage has ramped up to the point of actually killing things quickly, a Ritch can be a quite competent melee attacker. Until then, you have to balance them as though nearly all their damage is coming from Flame Spit, because it will be.

On Durability:
A lot - a lot - of weapons' utility comes from the abilities they enable. In TOME, "competent at handling weaponry" means having a lot of talents that cause you to make melee attacks at boosted damage and with extra effects. Putting all the durability damage on talents would easily represent a character who just can't help messing up their weaponry as they're using it. As for how well the hookclaw substitutes for weapons, I just tested it: at level 12, even the vanilla iron dagger I started with does 1.5x-2x as much damage as a hookclaw attack. It's very much not a "here's a different flavor" change, it's a large upgrade. Using pretty much the worst weapon out there.

[Arsonius]

@phantomglider
Have you actually tried to use it? In my opinion, Flamespit is the easiest way to play early with Ritch. In Trollmire all normal enemies either have lower HP than Flamespit damage or vulnerable to fire (trolls, who die in 2-3 spits), also Flamespit is 87% speed from the start. So I don't understand your complaints. In my experience it very quickly ramps up and eventually starts declining (around level 15-20).
In fact I can complete all tier 1 (except for Red crystals) and most of tier 2 dungeons by only repeteadly pressing 2 buttons: Z (auto-explore) and 1 (or whatever key you have Flamespit on). Just maxing Willpower and putting all points into Flamestarter tree. And while it's damage starts to lose against higher health of tier 2 mobs, stacking speed buff is insane. To be ready for the worst situations (rares and such), on Ritch I always get Elusiveness as first discipline.


@nekarcos
I guess it's a bit weird, that almost no Avatar talents scale with mindpower and some don't mind crit either. What's the point of Predation then, Hydra-exclusive? I suppose melee summons would have even less mind talents.
That said, I think that for now you shouldn't spend so much time on clarifying what crits, from what and what not, especially since ToME itself suffers from such obscurity on some classes, such as Doombringer or Psyshot.

I agree that Ritch should start with Flamespit, since it's not needed for optimal melee build, but it is hard to do anything in starting fight without it. Plus it's iconic for Ritch summon after all.

Ritch does indeed feels generics starved. While most melee classes in ToME start with up to 3-4 generics already split into Armor, Accuracy and Power, Ritch only has the spare one that everyone gets. It's a bit compensated since you'll have more generics further in the game, but that doesn't make starting melee Ritch easier.

Could we get a decorative red "debuff" icon on Ritch for when we have no impermanence weapons (i.e. they're broken)? That would help somewhat with indication I think.

After being ressurected with consumed blood of life I didn't stopped suffocating despite standing on bubbles.

Random decided that I should make a run with Mantis Oozemancer. Looks like they indeed don't need any race talents. I suppose in the end-game mantis wilder could be interesting, but it is weird that to get any use out of first 3 racial talents you need to wait until level 24. Maybe 2 of the passives could be combined into 1, adding another active? If that's intenional, it's fine, just that outside of Ogres and Whitehooves none of the vanilla races seems to require such an investment.
On the other hand, getting Bloodthirst allows for expanded melee build even if requiring investing in Strength.
Non-avatar monstrosities start with no infusions and the same 10 gold (and 3 gems) as avatars. While Summoners and Oozemancers don't really need any infusions at that point, I think starting as Wyrmic is too hard.
I understand they're low priority, just writing my thoughts.

[daed4]

On the other hand, getting Bloodthirst allows for expanded melee build even if requiring investing in Strength.
Non-avatar monstrosities start with no infusions and the same 10 gold (and 3 gems) as avatars. While Summoners and Oozemancers don't really need any infusions at that point, I think starting as Wyrmic is too hard.
I understand they're low priority, just writing my thoughts.

1. I'd say that ritch is or can be good because of the soul tree AND bloodthirst, but the blighted utterly genocides your stats, at least the blighted start. Literally most of my stats are <10
2. Avatar-Non monster was removed.

[nekarcos]

Sheesh! I'm gonna start needing separators for when I'm responding to THIS many people, hehehe...


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

@jenx
RE: All damage should crit
I'll consider that. Though, there are some things that I can't exactly make crit due to their nature. I'm also a bit concerned about the (arbitrary) damage spike this is going to cause. There are already a few talents that can crit, and the ones that can't are usually very oddball ones (for example, "Flamespark" doesn't crit, but is already quite nasty-- And none of the "Feral Hydra" talents do, but I think they SHOULD, now that you mention it...)

But yeah, again... I would need to look over EVERY single talent, and that will take some time. Don't expect this to happen too soon...


RE: Telos?
*** This is a BASE ToME spoiler-- Nothing to do with OoTS!
So, just in case you didn't know this...

Depending on how you answer Tannen, he will either send you to Fearscape, or he will send you to Telo's Tower. Fearscape presents a large map full of demon-type enemies (and some, admittedly, nasty demon bosses/uniques), while the tower forces you to face off against what I consider to be the most horrible mob in the game-- "The Shade of Telos". He is consistently the bane of EVERY character I've played, both Avatar and not. If you're playing a Fire Drake (or anything else, really), choosing "Fearscape" should honestly be a no-brainer, because of the enormous amount of fire-based enemies there (plus, the boss ONLY uses fire attacks).

... Although, despite this, my philosophy is that ANY character who is doing very well SHOULD be able to handle Shade of Telos... Which actually WAS NOT the case in my test runs. I need to see what happens when someone else fights him on Fire Drake, because it wasn't that I DIDN'T have the tools to fight him. If I had gone into Tyrant sooner, I could have easily crushed him. But anyways, yeah-- For your information!

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

@Cathbald
As I've said constantly, I still feel this add-on is a long way from "greatness". As strange as this might sound, I always knew Avatars would be a slightly handicapped class-- But, at the same time, it always felt so POWERFUL whenever I used it, no matter what class I was. Unfortunately, it's bad design principle to balance something based on your OWN experiences-- And hence, why I need everyone to try out this mess and give me their input.

This said, I want you to go in with high expectations, but MUCH cynicism. The add-on is not yet polished enough that one could play it from beginning to end WITHOUT encountering a gameplay issue that ISN'T entirely their fault-- And this, alone, is why I feel this add-on is lacking and still needs PLENTY more work.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

@phantomglider
RE: Flamespit is not worth it
The "trick" to Flamespit is that it provides you something to do at ALL times. Normally, a melee character sits around and stares anxiously at their opponent as they advance upon them, ready to cut them up the moment they enter melee range. However, with Ritch, because Flamespit has a cooldown of 0, there is no reason you SHOULDN'T be spitting fire bolts at ANY moment that you are NOT currently slicing something up, slightly improving your damage output. This allows Ritch to maintain a CONSTANT flow of damage, no matter what it's doing.
To make a rather crude, "irrelevant" comparison-- It works the way Hack-n-Slashes (like "Devil May Cry") do, in that you ALWAYS want to be firing your guns when you aren't currently slicing something up... Though, of course, in those games, bullets do about as much as peas flicked off your dinner plate. This is because the kiting potential is so high, and there needs to be a good risk-reward system. All of the above applies for Ritch as well, and that "behavior" is more or less what I'm trying to go for with this melee/ranged hybrid character.

RE: A million dollars
You said you wanted ONE generic point at the start of the game. "Natural Combat" is giving you exactly that, and 49 more... I'm not sure what more you could want!

RE: Ritch needs more generic points
No. Ritch needs more IMPACTFUL generics! Personally, I feel "Bloodletting Beast" is a GREATLY powerful, VERY impactful generic tree-- But this might be the ONLY one. "Cold Blood" has proven useless, people generally despise "Wing Pod" randomness, and nobody seems to care for "Hoarding Beast" because of how limited category points are. What REALLY doesn't help this is that I never wanted "Bloodletting Beast" to feel like a go-to talent tree for Ritch, since it's the only "good" one. It was supposed to be a slight "cushion" for making mistakes, since you would be healed by your enormous damage output.
Overall, this leads to an unfortunate state where it seems like Ritch is wanting and lacking in generics. I need to, somehow, make each tree a little more IMPACTFUL...

RE: No freebie generics
I can't give you free levels in your racial, because... Well, it's a racial talent tree. You never get freebies for those.
If I were going to give Ritch ANY free generics, it would be entirely in "Cold Blood"-- But again, there are "issues" revolving around that talent/tree that I have yet to resolve.

RE: No healing
As bizarre as it sounds, the design philosophy of Ritch is killing things before EVER being touched... It was never meant to "tank-and-life-steal" as it currently behaves right now.
This means it's supposed to have astronomical damage-- But this apparently isn't the case at the moment, from what I've heard. This said, I can't confidently tweak anything until I've determined exactly what a Ritch run is like from beginning to end through various different perspectives.

... I guess what I'm saying is: I need someone to beat the game with a Ritch and recount their experiences, even if they have to (within reason) cheat to do so-- This way, I can hear about where the chokepoints were, and what the frustrations they encountered was. Until then, I can't make any "dramatic" changes...


RE: All about Flamespit
Bah... Why doesn't anyone ever talk about Stinger? I feel like NOBODY gives this a chance. In my experience, it is EXTREMELY powerful and melts just about everything in Tier 1 and Tier 2 immediately (such that it was possible to make a Ritch that was 100% Constitution/Dexterity and 100% Eagle Eyes)-- And this was BEFORE I GREATLY buffed Stinger and lifted the penalty on inflicting multiple diseases.

I have to be honest: People seem frightened about trying new things, and I always feel like options are not being fully explored when they call a class weak. I find that, with any class, the moment you find some kind of magic that clicks, it finally takes off, and it doesn't feel so weak anymore-- And as I've assured everyone before: Each Avatar has, AT LEAST, one winning strategy, since I've played through the game and, RELIABLY, beat EVERY challenge ToME has to offer (except Atamathon, but INCLUDING the Overpowered-Wyrm room!).

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

@Arsonius
RE: Y no Mind Power scaling?
Because of the HUGE accessibility to Mind Power (via "Natural Combat --> Predation" or "Treasure Hoarder's Will"), MOST "Mind Power" talents DON'T scale on Mind Power due to how extremely easy it would be to upscale its damage WITHOUT making any "true" investments in its category. For example, Fire Drake could easily get 5 points in Breath of Fire, then just grab 10 Predation and call it a day. This is also the same case for Ritch, since it could grab 5 Flamespit, get 10 Predation, and just laugh at the extreme damage output it would have gotten so easily.
These are NOT things I want to encourage, and I only want to reward SPECIFIC builds for getting these talents (IE: "Stronk" Fire Drake and "Willy" Ritch). THAT is why "some" talents scale on Mind Power while others do not.

This said though, I DO feel like a few talents could be a little more open to Mind Power scaling, since most investments would be steep and harmless.

RE: The Iconic Ritch "Flamespit"!
Actually, you DO get this talent for free-- But, once again... The current volatile changes have bent a few rules and turned the Ritch class upside-down. Seems everyone has come at a very bad time, hehehe...

RE: More Generics
<See "Ritch needs more generic points" in phantomglider's response>

RE: "No Weapon" icon
That WOULD help... But I don't want to mislead players by encouraging them to ALWAYS have an impermanent weapon. I definitely want to motivate "weaponless" combat as well-- Especially since "Bloodletting Beast" needs this to automatically trigger its VERY useful life steal effect.

RE: Eternal Drowning
... Errr... No clue.
That might just be a "ToME" bug, not mine...!

RE: "Ego/Mantis" is useless outside the context of Ritch
Precisely.
As you can see from the first talent, I have been trying to give it a little bit more "widespread" utility, but I need to do so WITHOUT deviating from the bleeding-focused gameplay of a Mantis.

That said, the whole reason you get that additional x0.80 Mastery Locked Talent Tree is so that the Racial talents aren't utterly useless to your character, so don't forget about that!


RE: MONSTER WILDERS!
I'm pretty glad you investigated non-Avatar Monstrosities! It sounds like everything is working fine (despite the lack of inscriptions and such). Maybe I could somehow make a compromise for that...

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

@daed4
RE: Blighted Ritch?
I honestly wouldn't mind if the class was only mostly viable when it was blighted. That would make for an interesting development direction, wouldn't it?

RE: Monstrosities removed?
Nope. That was re-added again. Someone's not reading update notes!

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


PS: A LONG known issue is that "Natural Combat" doesn't IMMEDIATELY give you that first generic point. I think I'm going to fix that in this next update...-- Sorry about that!

[daed4]

The problem with blighted ritch is well.
You have NO stats. And no stats doesn't mean "You'll have 100 instead of 120" endgame, you have <10. Except mag, you have tons of it. Which means you won't get past early game.

[emblempride]

I suggest having Hydras start out with one of their class points already in Breaths, as currently a blighted start is impossible

Hrrrmm... I always knew about this, but I'm not entirely sure how to deal with it, to be honest-- Especially since 1 talent point in tri-breath really won't get a Hydra anywhere...

To elaborate-- This whole "blighted start" thing is HIGHLY experimental and last-second, but it's intended to cut out the middle man if a player wants to do "blighted" stuff WITHOUT having to jump through the hoops it involves (you know, getting hit by blight a lot, running back, etc...)

Unfortunately, it means you're gonna lose A LOT of stats at the start of the game, such that it might actually be impossible to... Well, learn anything AT ALL (and therefore, VERY hard to advance to higher levels to learn something).
This said, because of the +20 Magic you're getting from it, the VERY simple solution would be UNLOCKING the blighted talent tree at the start as well... But therein lies the difficult, balance-begging question: What exactly would the player be giving up in exchange for this additional Category Point I would be giving them...?


... Decisions... Decisions...


Addition: ... A thought would be reducing the talent category proficiency by 0.2-- But then this would mean you'd be capped out at x1.00-- Which is sort of lame if you want to go to x1.20...

I disagree! One point in Breaths would make all the difference. All Hydras start out with no talent points allocated out of two. In general really, Hydras should start out, blighted or not, with one point in breaths (especially since the talent point can be removed on birth and reallocated to whatever tree you want to focus on instead) since it's the staple for pretty much every early game Hydra. Even without access to anything else and horrible stats, all you need to get to and beat your first boss (assuming it's like Norgos/Prox) is one point in Breaths, Hungry Eyes as your first discipline (probably a go-to choice for Blighted w/Recuperate), and a slight bit of patience. If you pick up Elusiveness at Level 2, you should be more than able to beat the boss on Normal. This should make the opening battle survivable too as a blighted, instead of a super intense hunt for a safe area that loses you that first level up. Like you said, the simplest thing would be to unlock the blighted tree (which I honestly thought was going to be the case when I first started), and I feel like the trade-off for unlocking it at the start is the fact that you're locked out of every other tree until you can rebuild your Wil, but I have a feeling you're not to comfortable with that so this seems like the easiest compromise. I would really like to try a legit Blighted/Recuperate run, and I would also suggest holding off on any final opinions on Recuperate until someone can report back on that build, even if Blighted is optional.

[nekarcos]

I disagree! One point in Breaths would make all the difference. All Hydras start out with no talent points allocated out of two. In general really, Hydras should start out, blighted or not, with one point in breaths (especially since the talent point can be removed on birth and reallocated to whatever tree you want to focus on instead) since it's the staple for pretty much every early game Hydra. Even without access to anything else and horrible stats, all you need to get to and beat your first boss (assuming it's like Norgos/Prox) is one point in Breaths, Hungry Eyes as your first discipline (probably a go-to choice for Blighted w/Recuperate), and a slight bit of patience. If you pick up Elusiveness at Level 2, you should be more than able to beat the boss on Normal. This should make the opening battle survivable too as a blighted, instead of a super intense hunt for a safe area that loses you that first level up. Like you said, the simplest thing would be to unlock the blighted tree (which I honestly thought was going to be the case when I first started), and I feel like the trade-off for unlocking it at the start is the fact that you're locked out of every other tree until you can rebuild your Wil, but I have a feeling you're not to comfortable with that so this seems like the easiest compromise. I would really like to try a legit Blighted/Recuperate run, and I would also suggest holding off on any final opinions on Recuperate until someone can report back on that build, even if Blighted is optional.

Alright, this has been VERY compelling-- You've convinced me! In fact, I think I'll go the extra mile and just give Hydra 1 point in EVERY talent tree instead of freebie points!
... In fact, I think I will do the same for EVERY Avatar class-- Fire Drake will get 1 point in Breath of Fire, Fire Claw, and Wingbeat. Ritch (when the volatile test is done) will get 1 in Deadly Sting, Flamespit, and Buzz-Off (despite being locked!).
This should VERY smoothly rectify the issue starting as a blighted summon would introduce without "really" affecting standard pure summon play. Also, it gives me the opportunity to sneak a VERY nice buff into the Ritch class. Thanks for this suggestion, it's been super enlightening!


Also, about "Recuperate"... Mmmm, alright-- But we can't keep these changes around forever. EVENTUALLY, we must come to a verdict, and I hold it to you, my players, to help me figure out one sooner than later...

[emblempride]

Alright, this has been VERY compelling-- You've convinced me! In fact, I think I'll go the extra mile and just give Hydra 1 point in EVERY talent tree instead of freebie points!
... In fact, I think I will do the same for EVERY Avatar class-- Fire Drake will get 1 point in Breath of Fire, Fire Claw, and Wingbeat. Ritch (when the volatile test is done) will get 1 in Deadly Sting, Flamespit, and Buzz-Off (despite being locked!).
This should VERY smoothly rectify the issue starting as a blighted summon would introduce without "really" affecting standard pure summon play. Also, it gives me the opportunity to sneak a VERY nice buff into the Ritch class. Thanks for this suggestion, it's been super enlightening!

Also, about "Recuperate"... Mmmm, alright-- But we can't keep these changes around forever. EVENTUALLY, we must come to a verdict, and I hold it to you, my players, to help me figure out one sooner than later...

You're welcome and thanks!

Also, it seems that Slyness deactivates when making a melee attack before the poison can be applied.

EDIT: Fixed post.

[Almonihah]

Also, about "Recuperate"... Mmmm, alright-- But we can't keep these changes around forever. EVENTUALLY, we must come to a verdict, and I hold it to you, my players, to help me figure out one sooner than later...

When I have the time, I was going to write a lengthy "Hydra Experience" post after my victory. I'll try to hurry up and cover the Recuperate portion tonight or tomorrow.

[phantomglider]

@phantomglider
RE: Flamespit is not worth it
The "trick" to Flamespit is that it provides you something to do at ALL times. Normally, a melee character sits around and stares anxiously at their opponent as they advance upon them, ready to cut them up the moment they enter melee range. However, with Ritch, because Flamespit has a cooldown of 0, there is no reason you SHOULDN'T be spitting fire bolts at ANY moment that you are NOT currently slicing something up, slightly improving your damage output. This allows Ritch to maintain a CONSTANT flow of damage, no matter what it's doing.
To make a rather crude, "irrelevant" comparison-- It works the way Hack-n-Slashes (like "Devil May Cry") do, in that you ALWAYS want to be firing your guns when you aren't currently slicing something up... Though, of course, in those games, bullets do about as much as peas flicked off your dinner plate. This is because the kiting potential is so high, and there needs to be a good risk-reward system. All of the above applies for Ritch as well, and that "behavior" is more or less what I'm trying to go for with this melee/ranged hybrid character.

RE: A million dollars
You said you wanted ONE generic point at the start of the game. "Natural Combat" is giving you exactly that, and 49 more... I'm not sure what more you could want!

RE: Ritch needs more generic points
No. Ritch needs more IMPACTFUL generics! Personally, I feel "Bloodletting Beast" is a GREATLY powerful, VERY impactful generic tree-- But this might be the ONLY one. "Cold Blood" has proven useless, people generally despise "Wing Pod" randomness, and nobody seems to care for "Hoarding Beast" because of how limited category points are. What REALLY doesn't help this is that I never wanted "Bloodletting Beast" to feel like a go-to talent tree for Ritch, since it's the only "good" one. It was supposed to be a slight "cushion" for making mistakes, since you would be healed by your enormous damage output.
Overall, this leads to an unfortunate state where it seems like Ritch is wanting and lacking in generics. I need to, somehow, make each tree a little more IMPACTFUL...

RE: No freebie generics
I can't give you free levels in your racial, because... Well, it's a racial talent tree. You never get freebies for those.
If I were going to give Ritch ANY free generics, it would be entirely in "Cold Blood"-- But again, there are "issues" revolving around that talent/tree that I have yet to resolve.

RE: No healing
As bizarre as it sounds, the design philosophy of Ritch is killing things before EVER being touched... It was never meant to "tank-and-life-steal" as it currently behaves right now.
This means it's supposed to have astronomical damage-- But this apparently isn't the case at the moment, from what I've heard. This said, I can't confidently tweak anything until I've determined exactly what a Ritch run is like from beginning to end through various different perspectives.

... I guess what I'm saying is: I need someone to beat the game with a Ritch and recount their experiences, even if they have to (within reason) cheat to do so-- This way, I can hear about where the chokepoints were, and what the frustrations they encountered was. Until then, I can't make any "dramatic" changes...


RE: All about Flamespit
Bah... Why doesn't anyone ever talk about Stinger? I feel like NOBODY gives this a chance. In my experience, it is EXTREMELY powerful and melts just about everything in Tier 1 and Tier 2 immediately (such that it was possible to make a Ritch that was 100% Constitution/Dexterity and 100% Eagle Eyes)-- And this was BEFORE I GREATLY buffed Stinger and lifted the penalty on inflicting multiple diseases.

I have to be honest: People seem frightened about trying new things, and I always feel like options are not being fully explored when they call a class weak. I find that, with any class, the moment you find some kind of magic that clicks, it finally takes off, and it doesn't feel so weak anymore-- And as I've assured everyone before: Each Avatar has, AT LEAST, one winning strategy, since I've played through the game and, RELIABLY, beat EVERY challenge ToME has to offer (except Atamathon, but INCLUDING the Overpowered-Wyrm room!).

I... don't think you understand the problem I am trying to get at. Flame Spit is fine if it's a supplemental thing you do while waiting for people to walk into your melee buzzsaw, but you don't have a melee buzzsaw because

ritches cannot handle melee at the beginning of the game.

I'm not saying that ritches don't get enough generic points, I'm saying that the generic points they get come too late for their awful early game. It's like I'm saying "I don't have enough money and I'm starving" and you're going "Well, if you invest in this thing, you should have quite a lot of money in two years!" They don't start with a talent point in their racial tree (like all the standard races do except Cornac), they don't start with any accuracy or combat power or armor, and they have no inscriptions so

ritches cannot handle melee at the beginning of the game.

I do not use stinger because I am not talking about level 6, I am talking about level 2 and level 3, when if you want to use stinger on anything you have to wade into melee and wait for a 10% chance to proc while getting your teeth pushed into your stomach, and you do not do that because

ritches cannot handle melee at the beginning of the game.

You talk about how I shouldn't compare Flame Spit to Flame or Acid Spray or Bone Spear because they are from caster-y classes, but ritch absolutely plays as a caster class at the beginning of the game, doing everything with direct damage-dealing talents that are completely independent of its weaponry, and it is necessary to compare its talents to caster talents because

ritches cannot handle melee at the beginning of the game.

Ritches do not have astronomical damage at the start of the game, they have 19 damage per turn with zero spike potential. I am telling you about a chokepoint and a frustration that exists in ritch gameplay as soon as it begins.

Ritches cannot handle melee at the beginning of the game and everything they have is designed as though they can.

[nekarcos]

@phantomglider
Alright, alright, I getcha. Ritches are amazing melees at the start of the game, I get it!

No no-- Just kidding! Okay, but here's the thing: Ritches AREN'T melees at the start of the game-- Or at least, very "safe" ones. You'll notice that MOST of a Ritch's "Wild-Heart" arsenal are techniques that want it to keep its distance, whilst "Wild-Child" are techniques that make it want to get close. To summarize: It's up to YOU to decide how you will play safely, but the way you will play "dangerous" is set in stone.
After that, you'll get "Advanced" talent trees that will compel you to get a little closer to your opponent by offering huge rewards for your risks. Until then, I REALLY don't recommend trying to be too much of a "melee" at the start of the game. As I said before: You are STILL a ranged avatar.


RE: Every race starts with 1 generic point
... Holy crap. I never even noticed this! I ALWAYS play Cornac, and despise all the other races, hahaha...

Alright, from now on, each "Monstrosity" will start with 1 point in their first racial talent. WOW... I had no clue!



RE: Accuracy or Power
You have to understand Ritch is a "Dexterity" class, so it should naturally get and/or find accuracy. Also, there really is no excuse for "not" having accuracy because you get the entire Natural Combat tree.

As for power-- Seriously... Is Strongarm not good enough for you?? Gosh!

As for armor-- Listen. I'm sounding like a broken record now. EVERYTHING YOU ARE ASKING FOR IS IN "NATURAL COMBAT". BE PATIENT-- LEVEL UP. Are Brown Mouses too much for you to handle at level 1??

Anyways, here:

ACCURACY:
> Ritch's starting, untouched Accuracy was 11.
> Brawler's starting, untouched Accuracy was 8.
> Shadowblade's starting, untouched Accuracy was 8.
> Rogue's starting, untouched Accuracy was 8.

~ The talent "Combat Accuracy" provides 12 Accuracy at Talent Level 1
~ The talent "Eagle Eyes" provides 10 Accuracy at Talent Level 1

POWER:
> Ritch's starting, untouched Physical Power is 11
> Brawler's starting, untouched Physical Power is 13
> Rogue's starting, untouched Physical Power is 11
> Shadowblade's starting, untouched Physical Power is 10


~ "Weapon/Dagger Mastery" provides 13 Physical Power (+25% weapon damage) at Talent Level 1.
~ "Savage Strength" provides 10 Physical Power (and 1% Crit chance) at Talent Level 1.
*** But let's not forget about "Strongarm", which provides +50% weapon damage!

*** The difference is minimal, but "Ritch" has an advantage since it gets more with less investment

RE: Can't melee for Stinger
I dunno what you're picking fights with, but you probably shouldn't. You seem to understand the numbers well enough, so don't wade into melee combat against something big if you only have a 10% chance of procing. However, if you DO get that sting to go off, it is almost always CERTAIN death for whatever you hit-- Bosses included. Risk-reward, take a chance, etc...

Oh, and further more: The chance of stinging occurs for EACH melee attack (you attack twice), so it's technically HIGHER than listed (10% Chance w/ two attacks = 19% chance).


RE: Flame Spit
Let me dump some numbers onto you. Are you ready for this? Here we go:

-- I have hacked "Acidic Spray" onto a Ritch at Talent Level 1. I'm attacking a target dummy. Let's take a look at the numbers:
-- Level 1 Ritch, 12 Willpower, 13 Mind Power (an untouched, just-born Ritch)
> Spent 3 Equilibrium. Used Acidic Spray. Dealt 49 Acid damage. Acidic Spray is on cooldown for 6 more turns.
> Spent 5 Equilibrium. Used Flame Spit. Dealt 11 Fire damage.
> Spent 5 Equilibrium. Used Flame Spit. Dealt 11 Fire damage.
> Spent 5 Equilibrium. Used Flame Spit. Dealt 11 Fire damage.
> Spent 5 Equilibrium. Used Flame Spit. Dealt 11 Fire damage.
> Spent 5 Equilibrium. Used Flame Spit. Dealt 11 Fire damage.
> Spent 5 Equilibrium. Used Flame Spit. Dealt 11 Fire damage. Acidic Spray is now ready.
*** Conclusion: "Flamespit" STILL outdamaged Acidic Spray, although the cost was very high.

-- Level 10 Ritch, 34 Willpower, 26 Mind Power (every point in Willpower, nothing else touched)
> Spent 3 Equilibrium. Used Acidic Spray. Dealt 60 Acid damage. Acidic Spray is on cooldown for 6 more turns.
> Spent 5 Equilibrium. Used Flame Spit. Dealt 20 Fire damage.
> Spent 5 Equilibrium. Used Flame Spit. Dealt 20 Fire damage.
> Spent 5 Equilibrium. Used Flame Spit. Dealt 20 Fire damage.
> Spent 5 Equilibrium. Used Flame Spit. Dealt 20 Fire damage.
> Spent 5 Equilibrium. Used Flame Spit. Dealt 20 Fire damage.
> Spent 5 Equilibrium. Used Flame Spit. Dealt 20 Fire damage. Acidic Spray is now ready.
*** Conclusion: "Flamespit" has improved approximately 90%, while Acidic Spray has improved 20%.

> Raising both talent levels to 5 now <

-- Level 10 Ritch, 34 Willpower, 26 Mind Power (talents are now Level 5)
> Spent 3 Equilibrium. Used Acidic Spray. Dealt 143 Acid damage. Acidic Spray is on cooldown for 6 more turns.
> Spent 5 Equilibrium. Used Flame Spit. Dealt 62 Fire damage.
> Spent 5 Equilibrium. Used Flame Spit. Dealt 62 Fire damage.
> Spent 5 Equilibrium. Used Flame Spit. Dealt 62 Fire damage.
> Spent 5 Equilibrium. Used Flame Spit. Dealt 62 Fire damage.
> Spent 5 Equilibrium. Used Flame Spit. Dealt 62 Fire damage.
> Spent 5 Equilibrium. Used Flame Spit. Dealt 62 Fire damage. Acidic Spray is now ready.
*** Conclusion: "Flamespit" has improved by 300%, while Acidic Spray has improved approximately 150%.

*Standing there, arms folded, tapping feet...*
It actually looks like it becomes MORE of a caster AFTER the start of the game. Strange, isn't it?


RE: Astronomical Damage
It's not "astronomical"... Yet. Ritch hasn't had a chance to "blossom" into the death machine that it later becomes.

But anyways, here's a few more numbers. Let's compare some Level 1 damage output between the different vanilla classes:

*** Note that ALL listed talents are LEVEL ONE.

-- Level 1 Cornac Shadowblade; has "Lethality", "Dagger Mastery", and is sustaining Shadow Combat:
> Standard attack deals 16 physical, 6 darkness, 8 physical, 6 darkness (24 Physical + 12 Darkness = 36 damage total)
*** Remark: Ninjas are cheaters. Look at everyone else's numbers!

-- Level 1 Cornac Brawler; has "Unarmed Mastery":
> Performed a "Double Strike", dealing 12 Physical, 12 Physical (24 damage total)

-- Level 1 Cornac Rogue; has "Dagger Mastery" and "Lethality". HACKED IN "Vile Poisons" for the sake of testing:
> Standard attack deals 16 physical, 8 physical (24 damage total)
> Vile Poisons causes 11 Nature damage for 6 turns (66 damage total)
*** Took a look at the code-- The chance of proccing is 25% per attack at TL1. At TL5, the chance is 45%. The chance diminishes for each poison they have.
*** Also note that "Cunning/Poisons" is a Level 10 ADVANCED talent tree, so I'm cheating a bit here!

-- Level 1 Cornac Archer; has "Bow Mastery" and nothing more
> Used "Shoot"-- Arrow deals 22 Physical damage
> Melee'd the dummy for fun-- Archer-fist deals 5 Physical damage

-- Level 1 Cornac Summoner; uses Level 1 "War Hound" and Level 1 "Ritch" to attack:
> War Hound deals 24 Physical damage
> Ritch uses Flame Spit; deals 20 Fire damage

*** Now, the important comparison:

-- Level 1 Mantis Ritch; "Strongarm" is active and nothing more:
> Used "Flamespit", dealt 11 Fire damage
> Performed an ARMED melee attack (starting Longsword+Dagger), dealing 15 Physical, 12 Physical (27 damage total)
> Removed weapons-- UNARMED melee attack (Hookclaw+Hookclaw), dealing 11 Physical, 11 Physical (22 damage total)
> "Pernicious Needle" triggers-- Initial sting deals 12 Blight. Dummy proceeds to take 11 Blight for 5 more turns (67 damage total)
*** The chance of a sting proccing is 6.7% at TL1. The chance is 8.9% at TL5. This looks bad because it requires Dexterity and Physical Crit to increase, while Vile Poisons does not. The chance of proccing DOES NOT diminish for each additional disease.

*** And JUST for GOOD measure:

-- Level 1 Cornac Archmage; went and learned "Staff Combat", and learned "Channel Staff"
> Used "Channel Staff"-- It deals 6 Light damage (I had a "Light" staff at the time)
> Reconfigured staff to "Physical"-- It deals 7 Physical damage (the number pops up as 8 though)
> Smacked the dummy with the staff-- It deals 8 Physical damage

*** Deliberation: "SUSTAINED ranged damage sits perfectly in between the two major ranged classes in ToME. Melee damage sits IN LINE with the Dexterity-based double-attack classes. Melee damage sits in line with Summoner melee damage, but somewhat behind Summoner ranged damage. Lingering damage falls in line with standard numbers, however, proc chance is lower than normal-- BUT, it has the potential to stack indefinitely."

*** Conclusion: "Ritch's starting damage falls in line with ToME's standard levels of starting damage, and will only continue to grow stronger and stronger at a RAPID, ACCELERATED pace."

... So, having nerded this out a bit and produced VISIBLE numbers, you can CLEARLY see the problem with Ritch IS NOT its starting damage. I would like you to stop attacking that.

If what you're asking for is a set of powerful go-to talents like "Whirlwind" or "Shield Bash", Ritch doesn't get those early on because of its hybrid capabilities. I am asking for a more "clever" style of play.
In melee combat, Ritch only knows how to bump-- But it bumps HARD. In ranged combat, it tears down defenses and prepares the opponent for a single killing blow. This playstyle might be what is throwing you for such a loop.



PS: Furthermore-- Everything tested here DOES NOT factor in the *enormous* amount of SCALING Ritch gets with every talent and every weapon it gets. Ritch, by far, has INSANE scaling, and as long as you are not whimsical about how you spend points (IE: BEING the Glass Cannon that it wants to be), your damage output will "skyrocket", just as calculated-- And then, your damage really WILL be "astronomical", heheheh...

If this isn't good enough, just give me the word and I'll bring you back a damage test for late game damage as well, if you're not convinced.

[Almonihah]

I think the problem is, you're thrown into a combat at level 1, and most people don't do an extensive cost/benefit/survivability analysis at level 1 before selecting their talents and jumping in. They figure they'll have time to experiment, take back some choices that aren't working, and so forth, before getting to the end of the Trollmire and actually having to get serious against the boss. However, after my (one) time trying Ritch... it's really, really easy to just plain die if you try to experiment during the first battle without putting a whole ton of thought into just what you're doing.

I suspect that this is a deliberate design choice. All of the Avatar classes have an enormous amount of complexity to absorb right at the beginning just from the choice of your first Natural Combat discipline, much less the rest of their class abilities, all of which are rather different from vanilla ToME. Myself, I enjoy the complexity and the great difference from normal builds, but for the average ToME player, it can come as a real shock, and one that's not necessarily understandable until you sit down and run a lot of numbers... which is not something your average ToME player probably does. So I suspect what's really going on here is an expectation mismatch between "Developer who has thought through all of this several times and already knows how to play his stuff" on the one hand and "Player who expects to jump in and be able to do something without half an hour of analysis" on the other.

I could be wrong, of course. I haven't run the numbers on the Ritch myself--I'm here to be a giant scaly monster, not some bug-thing.

[nekarcos]

I think the problem is, you're thrown into a combat at level 1, and most people don't do an extensive cost/benefit/survivability analysis at level 1 before selecting their talents and jumping in. They figure they'll have time to experiment, take back some choices that aren't working, and so forth, before getting to the end of the Trollmire and actually having to get serious against the boss. However, after my (one) time trying Ritch... it's really, really easy to just plain die if you try to experiment during the first battle without putting a whole ton of thought into just what you're doing.

I suspect that this is a deliberate design choice. All of the Avatar classes have an enormous amount of complexity to absorb right at the beginning just from the choice of your first Natural Combat discipline, much less the rest of their class abilities, all of which are rather different from vanilla ToME. Myself, I enjoy the complexity and the great difference from normal builds, but for the average ToME player, it can come as a real shock, and one that's not necessarily understandable until you sit down and run a lot of numbers... which is not something your average ToME player probably does. So I suspect what's really going on here is an expectation mismatch between "Developer who has thought through all of this several times and already knows how to play his stuff" on the one hand and "Player who expects to jump in and be able to do something without half an hour of analysis" on the other.

I could be wrong, of course. I haven't run the numbers on the Ritch myself--I'm here to be a giant scaly monster, not some bug-thing.

Maaaaaaan!! But as soon as I tune down the power levels of the soldiers in the starting battle, everyone is just going to AFK next to The Summoner again-- And I despise that!

[Almonihah]

I'd actually been thinking about this... it seems like you almost need an optional 'tutorial' battle before that first fight, if you want to keep it as it is now. Something skippable that would give first-time players an opportunity to learn the classes a little bit (and maybe get some basic talent allotment advice) before being thrown into a fight that's not too hard to get killed in.

I'm not sure if this would be easy to implement, nor if it's actually desirable. It was just a thought I had about how to maybe solve this problem.