"Odyssey of The Summoner" is OUT!! Find it here...

[nekarcos]

Why did you decide to not have infusions working as normal?
They are critical for success in vanilla ToME and making something that works just as well appears to be a nightmare.

The short answer is this: "I wanted to challenge the Inscription system, which has always felt too generous to me."


The long answer is this:
I always felt Inscriptions to be a somewhat jarring mechanic in ToME and challenged myself to produce a style of gameplay that didn't rely upon them. This fell PERFECTLY in line with another idea I had: "Monster" classes in ToME. I have always loved playable monsters in ANY RPG-- And I'll confess-- I am a fan of a lot of monster fiction like Pokemon, Monster Hunter, Disgaea, and a lot more... So, I have a long history of studying/admiring games/stories with monsters-- Especially the ones with a lot of personality.
When I started playing ToME, I instantly magnetized to the Summoner class, and always made these small stories in my head about who my character was, and how sometimes the creatures I summoned would speak back to me, saying things like "Watch out around this corner" or "You're safe behind me".

It all led to what you're seeing today-- A completely non-canon fan work for ToME that kind of enraptures my fantasy experience with playing this game... But trust me-- What you're seeing right now doesn't even nearly scratch the SURFACE of what I've had in mind and what I've already begun working on.

You might have noticed the file name for "Odyssey of The Summoner" is "neka_therianthropy_summoner".
In case it wasn't blatantly obvious-- This is only one branch of a series of monster-related gameplay I wish to create and introduce into ToME.

... However, one step at a time, right? I'm already having quite a rocky time getting THIS one into working order, and it seems I might have already scared off most of the adventurous and "willing" portion of the community... So I guess things are going to get interesting later on? Eheheh... Heheheh...




@jenx
We'll decide on the power/save split after the update. Just remind me, okay?

[nekarcos]

Code: Select all

-- Code for eating Inscriptions
self.life = self.life +o.material_level

... I'm an idiot. I'M SUCH AN IDIOT!!

Code: Select all

-- Correction
self.max_life = self.max_life +o.material_level

*puts on a smile and turns to everyone*
Hey everyone! I solved the issue with consuming Inscriptions not increasing maximum life. You shouldn't have to worry about that happening anymore.

[lunitan]

I appreciate that you are taking the time to respond to everyone, we're building a nice little community here. I think you are coming across better now that you've dropped smiley usage too.

On flamespit scaling: I agree that it's power is in the massive speed you can fire them but my problem is that once you get you're combos up the dps is way better than melee. For instance my bump is about 150 with tier 2 weapons with max strongarm. But if I can flamespit 4 times a turn then I'm doing easily double that. I assume that tier 3 and 4 weapons compete with flamespit but I don't see much point doing melee in the early levels except to get lifeleech going. I'd rather you scale down how drastically it scales with willpower and add mindpower scaling then nerf gatling fire until you could spit maybe 3 times in a turn max so it's not so bad to lose your combo and promotes more than firespit spam.

On healing: I get growing bones but 16 turns without a half or a third of your hp is too much of an opportunity cost and if you wait till you are half hp then you are limited in how much hp you can regen. Incidentally I think 6 turns of effect is a little too short. 8 turns of uptime I think is a more elegant/fair design since its half the cool down so you have 50 percent uptime.

Fair enough on ejection being a ranged bleed I've never tried that route because str scales much better for weapon dmg than dex and gives you more max encumberace which means more armor. Plus stings felt weak before. Still what do you think of a long cooldown lifeleech ability you can pop like renewing flames / recuperate.

On new talent tree: I figured it was too op with stings getting a big buff bloody bite is kind of useless though it's cool ritch has a hidden prodigy like that. So let me throw another idea your way and tell me what you think.

This tree could replace strewn with a more thematic option or could be added separately. The idea is that you give up all ability to spit fire and goop in exchange for better melee and you instead focus your fire inwards.

Swallow fire: you give up all ranged ability and instead focus your fire inwards boosting your fire resist and spraying flaming blood everywhere dealing damage everywhere when you are hit above a certain threshold of hp in one hit, maybe 10 percent hp?

Hidden gland: your flamespit gland is now useless and you can now barely fit an item into it. Adds only one equipment slot for rings gems and amulets only. Also adds a secondary effect that can even be a debuff if you think the cost of giving up range is too little of a cost.

Blood boil. You purposely boil your own blood losing X percent hp (maybe it automatically triggers the swallow fire explosion ?) But gaining X percent movement speed (better than the elusiveness bonus since it has a cost) for X amount of turns.

For the last I'd keep the ignus infernus skill from strewn since that's the best imo.

Other stuff: I agree on splitting hoarding beast between half saves and power.
Also I do think you need passive all resist. Spells and status effects are monstrosities biggest weaknesses and giving up all your armor in exchange for a small amount of all resist is a bad decision pretty much always. Instead I'd take the active from sturdy heart and swap it with the all resist active, this makes thematic sense since you are giving up your armor for essentially a last ditch move. I'd then get rid of the passive stamina regen, I've never felt like I was ever even close to needing it, and rename sturdy heart to sturdy body. Then give sturdy body passive all resist maybe scaling up to twenty percent, though that might me too much. Then the active would be double the amount of all resist you get (which also might be too much) in all resist penetration, which is another thing avatars lack that you usually get from gear. You'll effectively be giving up defense for offense which is kind of the design I think.

Tell me what you think. I plan to playtest the new update extensively, ill give you some more good feedback then.

[nekarcos]

@lunitan
... I still can't believe people got so pissed off just because of a few smileys/emotes... It's ridiculous! *huff, brood*

RE: Flamespit
The weakness is that you "run out of ammo". Also, I wouldn't worry too much about Flamespit out-DPSing weaponry-- It's actually intentionally designed like that. Personally, a big part of Ritch gameplay is conserving weapon durability by using weapons ONLY as a last resort. If you can avoid whacking someone with your precious swords, you DEFINITELY should-- And that's what "Stinger" and "Firestarter" is always trying to encourage.

... Then, we get to talent trees like "Strewn" or "Metal-Rending" that basically say "No, no! By ALL means! Smash their heads with your weapons!"

So, don't feel guilty about this AT ALL! The late game basically DEMANDS that you start using impermanent weapons, because 80% of your encounters from that point on don't have the convenience of giving you the space or peace to casually "kite" your enemies. This is when Ritch starts to shine, as you are forced into MANY close-quarters situations, and have to figure out how to DPS without being DPS'd on (particularly, ALL of the "Prides"). By this point though, you should have some nasty weapons, and A LOT of good talents, so this should be no problem for you... Right??

Also, a very important trick on Ritch is to remember enemies usually won't use attacks that would endanger their fellows. Even if they do, they're just plain helping you by killing off most of the mob attacking you. So forcing them to line/crowd is an EXTREMELY effective tactic-- This is why I believe Ritch needs SEVERAL mobility tools over defense/protection. If you're strategic, you can constantly force 1v1, and just LAUGH at how amazingly high everyone's Demoralization is getting (I've managed to get an entire mob to 90-110 once).

Oh-- And damage-wise... Flamespit stayed relevant, in the sense that I still used it a lot (especially to finish off half-dead people)-- But it was hardly my go-to tool for killing anymore. I don't think it will be for anyone else once they get there too.

RE: Healing

Passive: +X% Critical Power, +X% All Resist Penetration
Active (X turns): +X% Life Steal

RE: Activated Life Steal
I have a feeling it won't be necessary. *looks up at previous section and grins*

RE: The usefulness of "Strewn"
The idea behind this tree is absolutely throwing away the necessity for accuracy WITHOUT losing damage. Basically, this talent tree is a "melee transitional" for "Firestarter" Ritches. It introduces POWERFUL fire damage talents that each requires the Ritch to man up and get into close-combat range-- But NONE of them require Strength, Dexterity, or even a powerful weapons. In fact, Ignis Infernus actually PREFERS if you miss a lot.
If this STILL hasn't sold the player yet, then "Flamespark" should, since it's basically the most broken talent with "free" damage/CC I have ever given an Avatar. It is SO strong, I had to make it use up TWO turns-- At Talent Level 5, it deals about 570 Fire damage with EACH weapon, knocks back 6 tiles, and blinds for 6 turns-- IN AN AREA AROUND YOU! Not to mention this is considered as a WEAPON attack, so on-hit effects will apply, weapons with BURST effects will explode, and talents like Cut Loose will fire off for EACH target you hit. The only catch to this talent... Is that you have to land the hit-- But the enemy's defense is cut in half anyways-- And you can ALWAYS turn on "Wild Swings"... So, how could you possibly lose??

So... There's no way I can throw away this tree, because it's the only way I'm going to convince these "Firestarter" Ritches to start meleeing-- Because, ultimately, "Flamespit" DOES fall off, and I needed a way to let them down gently... So why not give them a REALLY nasty melee-ish tree that requires Willpower...?


RE: Talent Critique!
- Swallow Fire
Whoa... That's a pretty edgy talent... Sounds like something a Bligh-- AHEM!! I mean... I DO like the idea of using Ritch's small HP pool as a nasty counter-attack... But it seems Ritch already gets something EXACTLY like that!

- Hidden Gland
The idea of allowing Ritch to do something similar to Alchemist via Gems might be an interesting concept... But I dare not step on the toes of any already-existing base-ToME classes...

-- Also, give up with the equipment slots! The main reason Ritch has NO ring-equipping slots is to force players to wear rings with their mouth slot-- And thus, give Hoarding Beast a useful, damage-related purpose.
... After all, as soon as Ritch can clasp a Bloodcaller, everything gets REALLY dumb and easy...

- Blood Boil
Hello Blood Boil! Have you met my friend "Sight of Red"...?
He basically does EVERYTHING that you do and more, but WITHOUT causing his player to die slowly!

... Oh? Leaving so soon? But we just met yooooou!!

- Ignis Infernus...?!?!
Screw that! "Flamespark" OP!



RE: Nature Hardened active effect
Remember that Natural Combat talents are all designed to be left at either Talent Level 1, or brought all the way up to Talent Level 10.
Nature Hardened's particular usefulness is that it's VERY good for damage-sponging if you are expecting a BURST of non-physical damage-- Especially if you're not really investing into this talent (though, that might sound like blasphemy what with the way I've seen people playing Avatars recently)

Also, another leak:

Passive: +X Maximum Stamina, +X Max Encumbrance
Active (X turns): Die at -X life (X% of maximum life)

AHHH!! WHERE'D THE STAMINA REGEN GO?!?! *PANIC*




*** In summary:
You have managed to hit MANY nails on the head.

... TOO many nails... You've managed to call out TWO of the changes that I'm making WITHOUT even seeing it...

... I think you know too much.


PS: I think I'm opening up WAY too much... I'm practically TELLING everyone exactly how to play Ritch!

[daed4]

@lunitan
... I still can't believe people got so pissed off just because of a few smileys/emotes... It's ridiculous! *huff, brood*
PS: I think I'm opening up WAY too much... I'm practically TELLING everyone exactly how to play Ritch!

They come around really bad, like putting 'xD'

Also where is QoL2? I can't find it!

PS: I think I'm opening up WAY too much... I'm practically TELLING everyone exactly how to play Ritch!

Sometimes you have to (thanks null for enlightning me with flenser, so fun)

[nekarcos]

@daed4
You know, you and the "everyone else" you refer to so much has instigated A LOT of unnecessary drama in this thread over something as trivial as "smileys in a message"-- And then, you went as far as bringing it to this project by encouraging people not to work with me.

This said, since the start of release, your presence has been nothing but whining the most and helping the least... And now, you come here speaking casually to me as though none of this had ever happened. Have you no shame?

Even now, your post has not provided any kind of insight for "Odyssey of The Summoner". In fact, it seems entirely like you're just trying to stir up more trouble again by opening discussion on prior events.

I can't make you leave, but I really want to ask you to-- That is, unless you have something... Useful you want to report...?

[nekarcos]

Sorry about the delay everyone-- The amount of changes in this update are ENORMOUS, so my pre-release examination is running long. I'm VERY anxious about accidentally leaving some game-breaking error in-- It wouldn't do to have the update break in 2 minutes after someone plays, would it now?


Update: I found 3 problems already-- A character sheet issue and-- Wait a minute... "Demoralization" from "Macabre End" was previously only decreasing by 1 each turn (instead of 10%)? Did nobody find out about this...? Or... Did you all know and didn't want ME to find out about this...?? Sneaky, sneaky... *snip, snip*

Update 2: Alright, here goes nothing.

[nekarcos]

A new MINOR version update "Odyssey of The Summoner"!! (Version 0.4.0)

*** Version: 0.4.0 ~ "The "Discipline" update!"

*** An absolute DELUGE of new graphics! Courtesy of "rexorcorum, beautifier of add-ons"!
*** A HUGE tweak to Natural Combat. Here's a breakdown of this update and my decisions:
- A new mechanic for Natural Combat called "Disciplines". The first Natural Combat talent you learn (and any that reach Talent Level 10) will becomed "Disciplined". "Disciplined" talents are not put on cooldown by other Natural Combat talents, nor do they cause a cooldown reset. In other words, double-talents are now VERY possible-- And even 16 talents at once. What's that? 16 Talents...? Well...
- 4 new Natural Combat talents have been added: "Blend In", "Splendour", "Hungry Eyes", and "Primal Rhythm". Originally, these were meant to be released when the Melee avatars came about, but I want to see their appeal and how they will be used ahead of time.
- "Eagle Eyes" has its Critical Power moved to "Hungry Eyes", making "Critical Hit Power" a slightly more-efficient investment for non-melee avatars. In return, Eagle Eyes got something else extremely useful that might make investing points to 10 feel a little more satisfying: Extra sight range!
- "Sturdy Heart" has its Stamina Regeneration moved to "Primal Rhythm". Instead, this talent now gives SIGNIFICANTLY more maximum stamina and some max encumbrance. This is MAINLY to make equipping Drakelings less of a hassle (since they will USUALLY have better encumbrance now)
- "Growing Bones" has its Life Steal moved to "Hungry Eyes". Now, the activated effect is flat damage armor, making this talent into a 100% defensive option (unlike before when it behaved like a hybrid option).
*** In work:
- Drakelings will sometimes use a Natural Combat talent whenever they spot a hostile (if a talent is available). The one they pick will be based on various preferences that they have...
- I have FINALLY figured out a way to hack some custom orders into party members, so you'll be getting A LOT more control over Drakelings and their behavior VERY soon...

[General]
(NEW)
- "Natural Combat" Talent: "Blend In"
- "Natural Combat" Talent: "Splendour"
- "Natural Combat" Talent: "Hungry Eyes"
- "Natural Combat" Talent: "Primal Rhythm"
*** Remark: Some Natural Combat talents were only supposed to be available to Ranged/Melee avatars. For the time being, I'm making them ALL available to best choose which will become exclusive in the future.
- "Blighting" is now displayed in the character sheet under "Defense". This is only a temporary measure.
- After taking one last look at my... "Inferior" graphics, you will unlock the new Cosmetic option to use rexorcorum's instead. This option will replace ALL "OoTS" graphics, including The Summoner and any Drakelings you summon.

(CHANGES)
- "Clasp" now specifically states WHAT objects you can clasp (since this varies for each class!)
- Reidentified the "Firewall" talent to remove naming conflicts with other add-ons
- Kekekeke... I have FINALLY figured out how to HIDE lore! You will no longer be able to see the lore about a talent UNTIL you invest a point into it!
- "Eagle Eyes" has a modified effect (Passive: +Accuracy, +Sight Range)
- "Sturdy Heart" has a modified effect (Passive: +Stamina, +Max Encumbrance). Note that "Stamina" is now the primary effect, and thus, provides twice as much.
- "Growing Bones" has a modified effect (Active: -Damage Taken (Flat))

(BUFFS)
- "Eagle Eyes" accuracy minimum is slightly increased, maximum accuracy bonus is greatly increased.
- "Strength of the Bear" Armor Penetration bonus is slightly increased.
- Avatars no longer have an inventory limit. I'm so sorry that was even a thing...

(NERFS)
- In light of the new mechanics, Natural Combat cooldowns have been raised to 20 (from 16).
- "Elusiveness" maximum movement speed bonus is reduced (270% --> 210%).

(BUGS)
- "Sturdy Heart" was not correctly increasing Maximum Stamina.
- Corrected description text when selecting "Wild Power" from an escort
- "Relief" would attempt to reset itself every so often, which lead to random pop ups. This SHOULDN'T happen anymore.


[Hydra]
(CHANGES)
- Increased "Hydra Breath" damage by 40%-- But reduced Mind Power scaling by 20%.


[Fire Drake]
(BUFFS)
- Doubled the fire damage caused by "Backdraft"
- Lowered the cooldown of "Backdraft" to 10 (from 15)

(CHANGES)
- The "Birth Weakness" penalty is now -10 Constitution (instead of -10 Global Speed). Also, you can no longer birth Drakelings if your Constitution is below 11 (such that you will always be left with at least 1)
- Modified the "Heatstroke" graphic. Looks less fancy, but now generates SIGNIFICANTLY LESS slow down when moving/exploring.


[Drakelings]
(BUFFS)
- They now require SIGNIFICANTLY less EXP to level up (80% --> 50%)
- They now gain 5 Stat points per level (from 4)
- Drakelings will now ALWAYS try to attack ("bump") their target if they're adjacent and have nothing better to do. No more sleeping!!
- While inspired, Drakelings now gain 20% of your current stats. This is NOT for combat purposes, but to make teaching newbies a little easier.
- Drakelings will now proportionately gain EXP (relative to your current level) whenever they gain Knowledge. Note that Knowledge has a cap.
*** Also note that, because you always impart some knowledge on newborn Drakelings, they will usually get some levels upon birth now.

(CHANGES)
- Drakelings will no longer automatically equip items. Instead, you now have an ORDER that lets you manage their inventory
*** This is, by all means, a hack. I do not think the player was intended to be able to access another npc's inventory, so-- By all means-- Find ways to break/abuse this as much as possible-- But let me know what you discover!
- Drakelings now have slightly different Natural Combat preferences (to reflect the new talents)
- Description text is now highlighted "pink" to improve readability a bit.

(BUGS)
- Won't remark anymore when you damage them outside of combat (silly)


[Ritch]
(CHANGES)
- Bladed Mail and equipped weapons now show up on the Ritch's player doll-- WOO!!
- "Diving Bomb" will now always position you as close to your starting point as possible.
- "Guillotine" will now always position you as far from your starting point as possible.
- "Predator's Stride" will now always position you as far from your starting point as possible.
- "Buzz-Off" now has a minimum jump distance (although, it is still behaving finicky...)

(BUFFS)
- Impermanent weapons now emulate the stat-scaling of hookclaws, generally improving their damage output entirely.
- "Concealed Blade" is now talent-scaled (but still unaffected by mastery)-- Meaning you will get considerably more Disarm Immunity from early points.
- "Concealed Blade" now starts with 35% @ TL1 (from 20% @ TL1)
- "Burst Slash" now talent-scales faster.
- "Cut Loose" now removes all stuns and pins upon usage, as well as granting 100% stun immunity.
- "Blinding Shot" damage is doubled; maximum damage is increased by 50%
- Slightly improved the chance of hitting when using "Wild Swings"
- "Stings" now stack 100% of the time and are not at all mitigated by prior diseases
- Diseases caused by "Needles" are now considered as "Pain" effects, allowing them to operate with "Torture"
- "Ejection" cooldown is generally shorter (from 60~24 to 48~20)
- Stings now have base damage (instead of damage coming entirely from scaling)
- "**ul T***er" now stuns the victim if the effect ends "prematurely".

(NERFS)
- "Cut Loose" will now cause confusion if you fail to kill anything by the time it ends.
- "Cut Loose" will now end prematurely if you become pinned during its duration
- "Needle" damage scaling has been reduced by 30% (now that diseases ALWAYS stack)
- "Demoralization" was counting down incorrectly. This is technically a nerf because it previously (incorrectly) decreasing by 1.

(BUGS)
- "Batter" now explains that it improves with Physical Power
- Whoops! "Torture" didn't have a cooldown.


~~~ "VOLATILE" Changes ~~~
*** This is a new section I'm creating from now on. The changes listed in this category are ALWAYS going to be drastic, experimental changes that WILL VIOLENTLY sway the levels of power where they are concerned.
*** There are NO guarantees that these changes will remain-- And there is VERY high likelihood that they will not last-- Unless I deem an agreeable level of "success" with the change.
*** Lastly, I expect "Volatile" changes to be HEAVILY discussed by players and community-- So if you REALLY like where a volatile change points, say so in the thread, and if everyone agrees, I will consider balancing towards THAT direction.
*** Note that, because all of these changes being so haphazard and experimental, I probably WON'T reflecting most of them with description text-- So it's up to YOU to be aware by reading this section!
*** Anyways, without further adieu, here's your very first set of "Volatile" changes:

[Hydra]
*** Originally, "Recuperate" did not obey the rules of healing-- It was considered as "slow damage resistance"-- Or what I liked to call "Rubber Armor". Let's see if this is a more "preferrable" state of functionality...
- "Recuperate" healing effect has been doubled (from 40% to 80% at max level). However, it is now no longer considered as a heal (and thus, is not affected by any kind of Healing Modifier)

[Fire Drake]
*** The point of "Defiant" Drakelings was the appeal of always being healed by your fire damage. However, nobody has gotten that far-- So allow me to give you a taste of that power...
- Fire damage you deal to Drakelings will ALWAYS heal them. TL3 "Parental Bond" will now always treat nourishment effects as though the target had 100% Fire Resistance (you will always heal Fire Dragons at maximum power).

[Ritch]
*** "Cold Blood" was the star of Ritch's ensemble. It is meant to provide that "satisfication" for small, but well-orchestrated kills-- Which is the appeal I am aiming for with this class. EVERY kill should matter-- But more importantly-- EVERY assassination should make you OH so much more powerful...
- The "Cold Blood" talent tree no longer has stat requirements.





Additional notice: This update, I am going to do a tentative "bubble test run" of each class. This way, I'll be able to see EXACTLY where each class stands from my own perspective, and I will lay down my feedback. More details later....

[lunitan]

On hitting nails on the head/revealing too much: It's cool that I keep thinking of the same (or similar things) that you do, though that's kind of my thing. I'm a very strategic player, I'm the kind of guy that sucks at first person shooters but still does well because I know every little trick, in fact for me the research and theory crafting is more fun than the actual game itself! (Compare my vault and jenx's to see our different play styles) Which is why I enjoy that your revealing things about the classes, it helps me plan my new builds and gives me some insight into your design process. I wouldn't be too concerned about giving too much away, everyone knows threads like these are full of "spoilers" and you revealing little tidbits builds up hype and hope that someone can finally beat the game lol.

On nature hardened and the new natural combat skills: The new leaks look really cool, I like that you don't have to give up life anymore for life leech. Though that's a pretty powerful active ability without growing bones downside, and kind of isn't fair that ritch (the life leech class) gets the same amount of life leech as the other two classes. Maybe ritch gets a special bonus for that natural combat active only so it's more effective on them? The new sturdy heart is really cool as well, I like the max encumbrance because it promotes you not stacking strength for a better hoarding bonus.

I disagree with nature hardened though, it is straight up blasphemy to not max out nature hardened, it is the one thing that allows you to survive early game until you can get the hoarding bonus online. Also every other class has passive all resist in the form of combat training, monsters are supposed to be tanky and imo they need all resist more than just a lot of life (If I had to give something good up for some all resist I'd say lower the life per level by 1 or even swap the max life of growing bones for all resist, that's how much I think it's needed)

On strewn and limited build options:
Now that you've explained strewn like that I'm more inclined to pick it up. Initially I saw the limited to 50% accuracy part and wrote it off as garbage, though now I realize that it does have some synergy and I can just not use it if I don't like it. Though to be honest I never really played with it because I never got the chance, there was always a more pressing concern for category points.

For instance: Imagine you are a ritch leveling up and you manage to get to level 10 and can pick your first category, what do you pick? Well really the only option, if you want to survive, is hoarding beast. The extra ring slot and the bonus stats and the one time use of infusions are just way too useful to pass up on. Now imagine you level up to 20 and get your 2nd category point, what do you pick now? Well you've probably realized that you have a lot of trouble with getting out of sticky situations, maybe you've had a few close calls that an escape would have solved so you decide you need to unlock a good escape skill. Now you have two options either unlock burrowing beast, or unlock wing-pod. Now imagine you've made it to 36 and have your final category point, what do you do now? Well you can now finally pick something that might give you some more damage, like strewn or metal rending.

The way you've set up ritch leads to you having to pick the same two categories every single time because they are essential, even you yourself have said both wind-pod and hoarding beast are essential to effective ritch play. As is this leads to boring and uninteresting builds until you finally get to experiment with something new at level 36, when the game is almost already over. That doesn't lead to fun play.

The way I see it to combat this problem you have two good options.

1- Unlock hoarding beast at the start and either re-lock cold blood, get rid of it all together, or just let us have it. I once again submit that cold blood is simply a filler skill that only gives you 20% extra exp and a little more gold, it is not good enough for a precious category point.

2- When we eat the sand queens heart unlock burrowing beast automatically instead of it costing a cat point. Though this has the problem of no one taking wing-pod.

New talent version 2:
I guess I have to give up on extra equipment slots. I wanted an extra slot because I really wanted more chance to stack stun immunity. I've never actually tried using bloodcaller because I always thought stacking more stun immunity in your clasp slot is better than a chance at life leech, but now you've said ritch has several options to deal with stun so maybe I can actually use bloodcaller in my next run.

I think, if I'm reading you correctly, you've liked this new tree better so I'm gonna give you a more fleshed out version that I think you'll really like. The idea behind the tree is to give up all ranged ability (you didn't comment on that part but I think that is a huge downside of the tree) in exchange for better melee ability. Since you commented that ritch is actually kind of a preview of the melee avatars to come I thought there should be a tree that can turn ritch from a hybrid into a pure melee. The idea is that you give up your ranged ability and even your own hp to fuel powerful melee abilities and passive effects.

Tree name: Inner Fire, it requires will to skill up (strength was a bad fit) and also requires that you have zero points in firestarter (pretty hardcore disadvantage eh? It'll probably be hard to get through the early game, you'll have to rely on stingers probably. Can also never use flamespit skills.)

Swallow Fire: You give up your ability to spit fire and instead turn your fire inwards, searing your insides and inflaming your blood. Increases your fire resistance by 6/9/12/15/18% and your physical resistance by 4/6/8/10/12%. When you are hit for more than 10% of your life in a single hit you explode, spraying fiery blood in a 1/1/2/2/3 radius around you dealing X damage (for you to figure out, maybe based on damage taken) and burning all enemies hit.

Fiery Constitution: Having an inner fire has made you tougher, but it has it's disadvantages. Increases your constitution by 2/4/6/8/10 and reduces the duration of detrimental effects by 7/14/21/28/35% but the immense heat that radiates from your body makes it impossible to hide. Reduces your stealth power and defense by 5/10/15/20/25

Blood Boil: You boil your blood, driving yourself into a frenzy at the cost of health. Increases your melee attack speed by 100% for 1/1/2/2/2 turns at the cost of 15/14/13/12/11% of your health. (The idea is for this to act like a pseudo flurry, it is obviously very powerful which is why i didn't scale it past 2 turns (though I think it could go up to 3 turns without that much trouble, maybe it could be 50% attack speed instead of 100?) but it has a cost of hp. Its basically like a melee version of gatling fire. Also triggers the swallow fire explosion which is important for the last skill. Also note that the hp payment is one time not per turn like you thought.)

Fireblood Swipes: Don't let your fiery blood go to waste, use it to burn your enemies! For 20 turns after a blood explosion you can use your fiery blood to improves your strikes, adds 10/15/20/25/30 fire damage to your melee attacks. On a physical critical strike the blood explodes, consuming your remaining blood but dealing 50/100/150/200/250 damage in a 1/1/2/2/3 radius around you and dealing 25/50/75/100/125 damage to yourself. This damage does not trigger swallow fire.

What do you think? I really like this version of the skill and think it's pretty balanced for what it is. Also it looks really fun, explosions going off everywhere, trying to keep life stealing so you don't die from self inflicted damage and hitting mobs hard and fast to get your needed life back. Also could be a cool combo with strewn, like a double fire melee build or combos well with blood thirst because it increases crit chance and even metal rending has a bit of a synergy.

Possible changes to natural combat: Here's another idea that you may or may not have thought about before. What if you separated natural combat into three different categories so that the active use of one doesn't put them all on cooldown? Here's the idea.

Natural Combat (or natural offense):
Physical power, equilibrium one (which needs a buff btw, which knowing you you've already put in the next patch), mind power, and your new crit damage and penetration one

Natural Defense:
mind/spell save, physical save, max life (or all resist if I have my way), armor/hardiness

Natural Ability (or natural cunning):
defense/luck, stealth detection/infrared, sturdy heart, lick wounds

The 3 natural combats fit almost perfectly into these 3 trees and will provide a better game play type so you can for instance pop your physical effect removal and life steal at the same time. This provides a more infusion like game play while still being less powerful than them. Also I'd nerf natural combats by increasing the cooldown to 20 turns (or even more) and reducing the up time to 5 turns (which is an elegant 25% up time) this way you both lose the passive effect and have less powerful and longer cooldown infusions but are still able to use more than one at a time (which is the most common complaint about natural combat other than rabbits foot not being a guarantee.)

And finally my last idea (Hope you like reading long essays because that's my thing apparently.)

Stat points: Monsters have always been portrayed as having more innate power than humans, only losing to them because of their superior intelligence, tactics and gear. That difference is portrayed well in OoTS, but avatars need more stats! Your saying a puny little human can have as much max strength as I can?! No way, I'm a strong monster!

For this suggestion I'd say add +1 stat points gained per level to nature trained (the thing that also gives +1 generic per level) and increase the max base stat cap by ten (from 60 to 70.) The effect this will have is manifold. First of all it will make avatars feel more like monsters since they can reach higher levels of physical ability than normal humans. Second it will allow for more build diversity because you can more easily reach all your stat requirements for skills and prodigies and allow you to more deeply focus on one particular stat. Thirdly it will help scale stuff like flamespit and breaths (which also drop off around level 20) a little deeper into the endgame. And finally, and perhaps most importantly, it will also take some of the strain away from generic points which are at the moment very clogged, you simply don't have enough points to get your class generics and keep a good level of pseudo "gear" from natural combat.

To compensate for this buff nerf all natural combat passives by around 20% (except the bad ones like lick wounds and stealth detection) after all you can get saves, power and life from stats too.

I hope I've finally hit a nail that you haven't thought of yet that might bring this addon to a better direction. Now if you don't mind I need some lunch, this took hours to type...

[nsrr]

Looks like I have an essay-writing rival...

[lunitan]

Christ you just posted your new update while I was typing. Initial thoughts is it looks very good. I'll have to try out this new cold blood but I still think cold blood needs to be free to promote different builds. That or it needs a buff.

[emblempride]

So, in retrospect I can see how my first post came off as brash, though I think my points were still fair and I don't particularly appreciate being shut down with an attack on my character. I want to be clear that I was and am not trying to "ignite a war", but I apologize for any offense and should say that I don't find myself agreeing with the other posts that have read to you as complaints. I have been following your responses and am increasingly enticed by both your revised openness and the continued ingenuity of the project and will respect your wishes to keep suggestions specific.

[lunitan]

So, in retrospect I can see how my first post came off as brash, though I think my points were still fair and I don't particularly appreciate being shut down with an attack on my character. I want to be clear that I was and am not trying to "ignite a war", but I apologize for any offense and should say that I don't find myself agreeing with the other posts that have read to you as complaints. I have been following your responses and am increasingly enticed by both your revised openness and the continued ingenuity of the project and will respect your wishes to keep suggestions specific.

Good on ya bro, I also agree the neka (I'd call him nek but then it sounds like I'm calling him a neck all the time lol) came across as a little strong, as did you. This is what I love about rogue like communities (the more hardcore the game the more mature the audience)

[nekarcos]

@lunitan
RE: Being more transparent
There are SO many secrets and powerful tactics I've discovered in Odyssey of The Summoner, and I'm trying SO hard not to spill the beans on all of them!
Particularly, have you ever thought to learn "Flutter", "Wild Swings", then get the "Lucky Day" prodigy? WOULD IT EVEN BE POSSIBLE TO GET HIT ANYMORE?!?!

... I might need to turn "Wild Swings" into a stance if this turns out being too OP...

RE: All Resist
Avatars DO get All-Resist actually-- Completely free!
Each time you complete a quest from The Summoner, you get another talent level of "Summoner's Bond"-- Which increases your Luck and All Resist. If you get all the bonuses, I think you can get up to 15% All Resist and about 20 Luck.

RE: Limited Builds
Don't forget the Wyrm Bile!
... Oh, and... Ummm... Ahem!
(... You can choose to get an extra Category Point from The Summoner after Dreadfell...)

RE: Give back "Wing Pod"!
... I kinda agree with this-- And I gotta be honest... While "Cold Blood" was a lot of fun, it doesn't actually add much power-wise to Ritch...

... Hmmmmm... Mmhmm... HMMMMMM!!!!! I JUST GOT A WONDERFUL IDEA! YOU'LL BE SEEING IT NEXT UPDATE PEEPS!!

RE: "Burrowing"
... It used to be locked-at-birth-- But this meant you could get the category for free by eating a Sandworm Heart-- And Burrowing is already a SUPER powerful tree... So, overall, I chose... NOT to allow this...


RE: Talent Critique time! Aaaay!
*** Just to make this clear, I love reading these and evaluating them. Sure, I don't always take them with open arms-- But it lets us sorta smack our heads together and think on the same wavelength, hm?

- Swallow Fire
Personally, I DO love "counter-attack" talents. "Overshadow" is my single favorite talent in ALL of "OoTS" (besides a certain hidden talent tree that is REALLY hard to unlock and "use"). I could see something like this being a thing-- But let's read on to the other talents...

- Fiery Constitution
Pfffft!! Nice try! No way I could give Ritch such an... "Easy" talent like that! I mean-- Who in their right mind WOULDN'T max that?? I mean... It would even reduce the duration of damaging things like Poison without you even needing to lift a finger! No way. Needs more shortfalls-- Too good!

... If I had to suggest a tweak, I would make the detrimental effect reduction scale with Constitution-- This way, the talent's own bonuses could meet the player halfway (since we're asking them to invest in something REALLY bizarre)

- Blood Boil
Here's what I would do:
"For [3~5] attacks, your Combat Speed is increased by [200~400]%-- However, each attack will consume [10? Hmmm...]% of your current life. After performing your last attack, you will automatically trigger Swallow Fire if it is being sustained."

- Fireblood Swipes
Perfect-- Except for one thing: I wouldn't have it damage yourself!

(Take a peek at something in OoTS called "Demolitives". It might intrigue you.)


So, I would rename this talent tree to "Blighted/Soul Fire" (screw it-- I REALLY hope people know about Blighted Avatars by this point-- If you don't, I apologize!). It would have powerful "Red" thematics (to contrast the powerful "Blue" thematics the other one has).

The "idea" of this tree would be encouraging the Ritch to build "meatier" and reward them for doing it, despite being a glass cannon. However, the problem with that is that Hydra already has something that works along those lines... So I'm not sure if it could be a thing.

HOWEVER, I absolutely LOVE the possibility of having TWO Blighted Talent Trees instead of just one. THIS would be EXACTLY that!


RE: Natural Combat Split
I thought of doing precisely that-- But the coding would be a nightmare and it wouldn't "convey" well to a player. Maybe, in the future, each talent will be marked as "Offense", "Defense" and "Utility"-- Y'know, relating to the three types of Summoning Classes: Melee, Ranged, and Support. I don't know what it will do-- But it seems like an interesting thought.


RE: Stat Points
I'll let you in on a secret experiment I have already tested out... It was a special character who STARTED at 80 Wild Power, and each time they leveled up, they would convert 2 Wild Power into 2 Stat Points. The result was... Absurd. I reached 60 in two stats before Level 20, and kinda ended up in a situation where I was just putting points into whatever I can find room in.
Long story short: I think "3 stats" per level... Is DEFINITELY a sweet spot, and I dare not touch that ever again... I also wouldn't dare try to mess around with stat maximums/minimums. I think DarkGod CERTAINLY got it right, and I would rather design within HIS limitations rather than my own (before the balance of this add-on becomes any more of a mess than it already apparently is...)

Basically, I intended for "Natural Combat" to produce that sort of "Limit Break" you're talking about. That is to say, there is NO human that can match the absurd amount of Physical Power an Avatar can generate, via "Treasure Hoarder's Will", "Strength of the Bear", and various unusual equipment slots!


PS: LOVED the new talent tree idea-- I would ABSOLUTELY implement this right away-- But I'm the type of Father who doesn't play favorites. Do you have a cool thematic "Blighted" suggestion for Hydra and Fire Drake to match? "Soul Fire" seems to "embrace" what it means being a Ritch instead of becoming alien to it (like that other talent tree does)-- So maybe the thematic here is the fusion of magic and nature?? AH-HA! We got something cool going!



@emblempride
Ahhh, forget about all of that nonsense... I don't even want to think about "that stuff" anymore, honestly. I couldn't think about anything else when that was happening, and it was just not a "productive" day.
... Besides, you'll learn that I'm a very reasonable guy. I just want to do what's best for everyone-- And as long as you share my sentiments, I think we'll get along just fine-- Despite sometimes bickering over things...

Also, I now have a morbid fear of making smileys thanks to that backlash. Thanks for that! *HUFF*

[rexorcorum]

Ok, some minor bug to report. Got myself blighted and this is what comes around when trying to look at the Character sheet Defence tab:
http://owely.com/41sacpo. (sorry for using external link, too tired)

In other news, my ritch is still alive and well after the first Jogging questline, yay (and probably after bragging, will die horrendously very soon).