"Odyssey of The Summoner" is OUT!! Find it here...

[jenx]

Removed Physical Power from Natural Combat???????????????

How then can I improve my attack with my 16 headed hydra???

My entire build strategy has been around this talent and maxing number of attacking heads !!

[nekarcos]

Removed Physical Power from Natural Combat???????????????

How then can I improve my attack with my 16 headed hydra???

My entire build strategy has been around this talent and maxing number of attacking heads !!

Ahem.

- "Biting" attacks now have 25% scaling on "Wild Power"

Hydra's damage output is completely unaffected. In fact, now it's not being scaled down anymore (since Physical Power gets diminishing returns at 20, 40, 80, 160, etc...)

[jenx]

Removed Physical Power from Natural Combat???????????????

How then can I improve my attack with my 16 headed hydra???

My entire build strategy has been around this talent and maxing number of attacking heads !!

Ahem.

- "Biting" attacks now have 25% scaling on "Wild Power"

Hydra's damage output is completely unaffected. In fact, now it's not being scaled down anymore (since Physical Power gets diminishing returns at 20, 40, 80, 160, etc...)

How can it be unaffected? Every point in physical power increases hydra melee combat output.

Also, diminishing returns is how every skill in ToME works, it's fundamental to the architecture of the game. If you have NPCs who are hydras and they too scale of Wild Power, their damage would get astronomical wouldn't it? That's why maintaining this architecture is so important in addon design. Have you checked the damage output of a lvl 80 elite hydra? or randboss hydra/X hybrid?

[Radon26]

Also, diminishing returns is how every skill in ToME works, it's fundamental to the architecture of the game.

http://tometips.github.io/#talents/race/higher
t1 talent, gift of the highborn.
its gives 5+wil*0.5 health every turn, for 10 turns.
it is very consistent and not diminishing at all.
pretty sure i could find a few more if i scanned them all.

[nekarcos]

How can it be unaffected? Every point in physical power increases hydra melee combat output.

Also, diminishing returns is how every skill in ToME works, it's fundamental to the architecture of the game. If you have NPCs who are hydras and they too scale of Wild Power, their damage would get astronomical wouldn't it? That's why maintaining this architecture is so important in addon design. Have you checked the damage output of a lvl 80 elite hydra? or randboss hydra/X hybrid?

Excuse me when I say this, but Jenx... You are terrible about reading/learning/trying things before commenting.
First of all, there AREN'T any Level 80 Elite Hydras or Randboss Hydra/X Hybrids-- Spaghetti monster-- whatever. I placed this very wonderful tag on all the avatars:

Code: Select all

not_on_random_boss = true

This beautiful little attribute means YOU WILL NEVER ENCOUNTER AN "AVATAR" AS A RANDOM BOSS. This add-on is not about modifying ToME's difficulty-- It's about giving you a new approach about going against it-- A new perspective. There is only ONE exception to the "no avatars" rule, and it is already nerfed to the point of being novel WITHOUT being arduous.
Until I have FULLY tested and balanced ALL of the avatars talents, I have no intentions of turning any of these classes into random enemies you will encounter-- FIRSTLY because it makes no sense, and secondly, these classes have HIGHLY advanced behavior and I simply have not worked out a way to make them use their capabilities intelligently.

Now then, secondly.
Originally, you gained 0.24 Physical Power per Wild Power. It was originally intended to make an Avatar's unarmed attack scale up with their level, but something I never considered at the time of designing this was how much this would cause physically-scaling talents to upscale. To "duck" this problem WITHOUT deferring the power of unarmed Avatar attacks, I removed the physical power per level and put a "25%" damage modifier for Wild Power on "Biting" attacks-- That is, Hydra's unarmed attack, Fire Drake's unarmed attack, but NOT Ritch's unarmed attack (I might give it to "Stings" instead).
Now... You're concerned about this bonus damage scaling out of control, correct? Well, you might have forgotten the part where Wild Power caps out at 100. I dread to say this, but "Biting" attacks actually might NOT scale well to high levels AT ALL. However, this is not something that needs fixing at the moment, now is it?

Next, why exactly is scaling and damage numbers and all of that "integral" to design of a game? Do you know why talents and skills have scaling? It is mainly to regulate the usage and value of stat points and items. To put it better: It's so that a Berserker who is investing in nothing but Magic can't deal the same amount of damage as a Berserker who is investing in nothing but Dexterity and Strength.
At current, Avatars function on a system of flat damage. That is to say, they function like tanks: They try to outlast their opponent rather than overpower them by improving their survivability, not their damage output. Of course, Ritch is a GRAND exception to this theme, in that MOST of its damage output comes from "Weapon" attacks-- Which (usually) scale on Dexterity and Strength.

Lastly-- Hydra's damage output doesn't even come from physical power. It's entirely, 100% multitude of on-hit effects. When you are a character that can attack 16 times, it might be a VERY good idea to put on stuff that grants you on-hit damage ("Eclipse" amulets can give bonuses like "+12 Light Damage, +12 Darkness Damage"), because THIS means EVERY SINGLE BITE IS GOING TO DEAL 24 MORE DAMAGE. 24 * 16... Do the math... Because these numbers get quite disgusting as you add up what 12 amulets with on-hit effects can do.
... Needless to say, I found my Hydra a "Fiery Choker", and beating Atamathon was hardly any trouble at all. However, with THAT said, I have no intentions of nerfing this either. Bravo if you have gotten that far, found a Fiery Choker, and managed to build a tanky-enough hydra that DIDN'T instantly blow up when Atamathon did so much as sneeze on it.

Edit: I LIED! I'm nerfing the on-hit damage for hydras later. On-hit effects will undergo offhand attack penalties as well now


Addendum: Did some quick searching. Weapon damage modifiers DO go through a bit of a blender, but it's not NEARLY as bad as diminishing returns on Physical Power (since Physical Power not only diminishes, but it ALSO goes through the same blender later).


... Does this answer your question jenx?

[nekarcos]

*** Featured: A demonstration of late-game 16-headed Hydra's damage output. Currently equipped with "Crown of the Elements" and three "of the Eclipse" amulets, all Tier 5 objects.

AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


I've known about this for a while, but I wonder if Hydra really deserves to have this removed. Afterall, this is its whole sticht(sp?) and it requires a special, hidden, secret talent.



Edit:


This is damage output AFTER the Rapid Attack penalty correction. Damage is essentially cut in half-- But that's not really my doing. This is actually a result of the default Offhand Attack penalty being 50%

[tabs]

Frankly I'd rather have fewer heads doing higher damage. Any monster with a skill granting flat damage reduction will laugh in the face of all those tiny hits. Oh, and 1500 bump damage, while nice, isn't really that over-the-top.

[nekarcos]

@tabs
Well, that's 3 amulets. Think about 11

[nekarcos]

Balarig The Level 4 Mantis Ritch By Nsrr
Merciless Killing: "- You have mercilessly killed 84 and are generally 78% ruthless."

Yessssssssssss!!! I was HOPING this would work! Now everyone can see how many you have slaughtered and how (in)efficient you've been about it

[jenx]

@tabs
Well, that's 3 amulets. Think about 11

I've cleared the game on most classes, though many not recorded in the vault as I often play offline. And I've cleared many on nightmare and PM on insane. All on roguelike .

So you're comment above about not reading/learning stuff first is not quite accurate...

Your example of "high" dmg output is not high, but more importantly, with ToME it is base dmg that counts in the long run. 300 hits of 10 each is nowhere near as damaging as 1 hit of 3000 in many cases, especially when you have a large number of dmg types. if your armour stops 10 and works against these for example, you will do no damage at all. Many hig peak critters will have almost total resistance, so you need resist penetration also on the same element.

Successful characters need to concentrate on one dmg type, and increase base dmg. onhit dmg is almost useless at the highest levels. What you want is things that affect status, like chance to gloom, or slow, etc.

(btw I haven't gotten a hydra to a high enough level yet, and I suspect from the lore and story line that some interesting developments might improve their dmg. And I'm only testing on insane, even though you aren't developing for insane. There are a large number of us who only play insane, sometimes nightmare. (I actually play a lot of madness on the regular game.))

You say I should learn more first, but compared to most classes I've played, and I've all the core ones extensively other than archmage, which I dislike for some reason, I'm finding it much harder to understand the mechanics, scaling, interactions of the talents. I've actually been playing Hydra a lot on arena just to try to figure this out.

So perhaps my feedback about what is unclear, and how the game works is more valuable than you think....

Anyways, I've got your latest update, and I'm going to hit the arena hard again to see how it plays this time.

[daed4]

Jenx is 100% correct.
One damage type>Many, since most shit has 5923289 resistances and 1923291 damage reductions, as such all "OP" builds work off "One damage, huge +damage huge +damage pen".

99% of difficulty in Oddyssey comes from the infusions.

[jenx]

@tabs
Well, that's 3 amulets. Think about 11

Why do you say amulets? I can only equip rings.....

[jenx]

ok, so I have 14 heads atm. I get confused, and I keep all my heads. But the description says, drool heads will be smitten by confusions and I'll lose a head and so not suffer confusion. But nothing happens. Haven't lost a head, still confused...

[daed4]

@tabs
Well, that's 3 amulets. Think about 11

Why do you say amulets? I can only equip rings.....

Can't you bite-hold amulets?
Also mindstones (isn't there an ego that gives gloom/madness/etc...?)

[nekarcos]

@jenx

I'm only testing on insane, even though you aren't developing for insane

Valuable or not, I still can't take feedback about difficulty/balancing when you play on difficulties that EXPLICITLY say (and I quote): "Unfair game setting".
This add-on is simply not balanced for ANY difficulty other than "Normal", so if you play on a higher difficulty, I DO NOT want to hear about what you think is good or bad because you are playing a completely different meta-- Something I have not even touched yet. What you experience is YOUR OWN liability, NOT mine. I WILL NOT correct, improve, tweak, WHATEVER to anything BECAUSE your experience on a high difficulty was unsatisfactory.

onhit dmg is almost useless at the highest levels

... How many characters have you played that can CONSISTENTLY hit more than 10 times per attack? Because, from my experience, getting an additional 200 bump damage on a HYPER TANKY character just from equipping an item... Is absurdly powerful.
-- And YES people. I know. I understand that you may encounter things like Brawlers or Psionics, whom get flat damage reductions. Trust me, I'm well aware of this-- And, of course, this is an on-hit build's weakness. However, downplaying the power of a strategy based on ONE counter-scenario does not render it useless. This just means you'll need to use a different approach when you encounter one of these. This is the Hydra's strength afterall-- Being able to tweak its elemental damage output at will. Do I really need to explain this stuff...?

jenx: Why do you say amulets? I can only equip rings.....

Nekarcos: it requires a special, hidden, secret talent

... This is why I feel like you don't read anything.

ok, so I have 14 heads atm. I get confused, and I keep all my heads. But the description says, drool heads will be smitten by confusions and I'll lose a head and so not suffer confusion. But nothing happens. Haven't lost a head, still confused...

It's not guaranteed. The text is only telling what "might" happen.

I'm going to hit the arena hard again to see how it plays this time

And ESPECIALLY don't play any of the Avatars on Arena!! Endless Dungeon and Arena were SUPPOSED to be locked for Avatars, but I haven't really discovered an easy way to do that at this time...


@daed4
"Min-Max" is always tempting in these types of games, isn't it?
Knowledge, strategy, and awareness are FAR more useful than mulling over a spreadsheet for several hours, in my opinion.
Developing this add-on required me to study this game for so long of a time, I somewhat know the game's mechanics inside and out now... And I can tell you right now: Having 80% resist to Fire, 80% to Ice, 80% to Acid, and 80% to Lightning... Is fundamentally the same as having 80% ALL resist... And if something has 80% Physical resist and 80% ALL resist, this simply means they're going to negate 96% of Physical damage.
Also, since calculations go to SEVERAL decimal points (even though they are not displayed as such in the combat log), it doesn't matter what wacky order or combination of elements you deal damage with UNLESS the target has "flat damage reduction", which puts a big MINUS on each instance of damage you deal. So, if you have something like "Ring of Elements" (converts ALL of your damage into fire, ice, lightning, and arcane), "Flat Damage Reduction" will work against your total damage output 4 times instead of once (since your "1" instance of damage has been rainbowed into "4").
... Yes. It's probably easy to pick a single element and stack a bunch of +DMG% for that element... But I dare not say that is the ONLY way to win, since (if you recall) I have successfully won the game with EACH of the "OoTS" classes, not really needing to do anything truly "underhanded". "Hydra", however, I have beaten the game THREE times with: A Breath-focused hydra, a Glare-focused hydra, and a Feral-focused hydra. None of them focused on any kind of "+DMG%" or "DMG PEN" sort of build. They simply did their thing and got far.
Avatars get A TON of tools for evaluating their situation-- COMPLETELY for free. I highly suggest "Keen Awareness" and "Predation" if you want to get the jump on your opponents BEFORE they get the jump on you.

Edit:

99% of difficulty in Oddyssey comes from the infusions

This might be an opinion, but "Infusions" frankly feel like bandages to repair mistakes and justify clumsy/careless play. I understand the game becomes a much less forgiving experience without them, but you cannot say I have not given you the tools to prevent/mitigate such disasters.