Bulwark Rework Brainstorming

[Lubaf]

I think I can safely say that for most players, Bulwarks suck.

So, let's brainstorm a rework for them.

First, a question: How do we optimally differentiate Bulwarks from other shield using classes?

I don't know, but I suspect one way is to boost Block for Bulwarks and nobody else.

I have some ideas to start us off:

First, at least one new Level 10 skill tree, as Bezerkers get Bloodlust, and Bulwarks could probably use something similar.

Second, a sustain that allows you to block every turn in addition to whatever else you're doing, at a cost of Stamina.

Third, Shield Expertise could extend the number of turns you have the Block status if you use the Block talent (rather than Shield Slam) rather than boosting Saves.

Thanks
Luc "Is Svalinn or Ancile The More Obscure Reference?" French

[Radon26]

suggestion. probably bad, but its something.


[quote]t1 Vigilance (p or s)
up to [1, 1, 1, 2, 2]ce a turn, you can automatically block a single enemy attack for 50% to 110% of a normal shield block.
(maybe some extra requirement like restores a charge only every few turns, or only if it would take more than % of your hp, if its to op otherwise.)
may or may not apply counter strike upon completely blocking an attack.
Definitely require you noticing the attack, or attacker, for it to work.

t2 Assertion (a)
take a step in any direction, and if there is an enemy in front of you, he will take xxx% shield bash damage, knocking, dazing, or stunning, or whatever.

t3 Weight (p)
if you are removing "+damage to shield bashes" from shield expertise, put it here.

t4 Fortification (s)
while sustained, blocking any damage of valid types reduces them by xx, and 5-25%, before the block value is used.
while sustained, the shield value is changed to 75% (or 60/75/90/105/120%, not sure if it should scale) of its normal value.
(ghouls already have a "no more than xx% of life", so this talent will also protect them form the death of a thousand cuts.)


eddited, with idea for 4th talent... probably irrelevant anyway.

[Zeyphor]

they could probably do fine just having the shield defense category revamped; preferably with a way to reduce non-physical damage taken

[Razakai]

Guess I'll shamelessly plug my addon http://forums.te4.org/viewtopic.php?f=50&t=46057 here. I think Bulwark needed a few things:

- Shield Defense is terrible. My solution was removing the -dmg penalty from Shield Wall, giving Shield Mastery the ability to shield slam on basic attacks (so their bumps are better), replacing Repulsion with a scaling damage reduction as you get more injured (synergising with Last Stand/Heroism) and buffing the numbers on Last Stand and turning it into a cooldown ability rather than sustain. Gives Bulwarks a unique defensive tree.
- Bulwarks in general just need more, and more unique, trees. I gave them a set of Bulwark only shield techniques like an aoe shockwave, charging into an enemy and slamming them against a wall (retaliation tree) and a more defense/utility focused tree with stuff like a mini-movement infusion on using block and a special empowered block.
- Like above, Bulwark needs to get cooler bonuses from using block so it doesn't feel like such a drag to use.
- They definitely need a unique locked tree. I gave them Knighthood but frankly I'm not a big fan of the design looking back on it. Has some neat stuff but not that coherent.
- Some of their shared existing trees could be changed and buffed. Superiority has some really terrible talents in it, as does Warcries.
- Shields and blocking in general need changing. For a start Spectral Shield should be baseline. It's confusing to new players as nothing specifies that resists on shields affect block types, and it turns block into a very binary sort of defense - either you can block the damage types, or your primary defensive mechanic is 100% useless. Likewise, Eternal Guard trivializes normal difficulty but quickly drops off at higher ones. 2/3 uptime on a -300 flat damage taken makes you immortal on normal, less so when things are doing 1-2k+ damage. I think replacing it, flattening the cooldown on the block talent (maybe set it to 5 at all TLs) and increasing block %/making block always block a certain % value would work. Means it's less uptime, but more impactful when it does get used.
- For other shield classes, I think the Riposte on partial blocks should definitely be baseline for everyone. Riposte should just be making counterstrikes stronger/more often, rather than a requirement to even use counters. I think if we changed block we might want to give Sun Paladin a bit of a bonus on blocking, as then Bulwark/Demo/SP (the 3 main shield users, except for Stone Warden which is a bit of a special case) would all get some neat block mechanics.

[Dreyeth]

In my opinion Shield Block needs to be instantaneous baseline before classes there are reasons to use Shield Block when it consumes a turn
but mainly the ability just seems to exist to be pared with Eternal Guard and maybe Spectral Guard a tier 5 shield.

In most situations you're better off just not using Shield Block at all, in almost every situation it's a loss rather then a gain even
with the chance of a counter attack debuff going up.

Now if you make it a instant it might need to be toned down a bit or re-balanced a little bit but at least then you'll get
you're occassional tactical damage reduction without it consuming you're reason for using it (you're turn).

Something like the Armor Hardiness mechanics so everyone else who can use a shield can use it for general damage reduction
but the full on shield classes can use it for total blocking so instant shield blocks don't rock the game?

Now blocking with a shield for a turn if you negate the damage can help stuff come on cooldown if you're in a pinch,
but I find most of the time I'm just losing a turn with the promise that a enemy probable will use something my shield can
block most of (that isn't always the case) and then *maybe* getting a counter strike debuff (a lot of times I don't) for double damage
and some extra crit that is a lot of times just a net loss in how effective two turns are rather then not trying to shield block at all.

That's just my two cents instant shield block would just mean its there two be tactical used when you think you're going to get hit hard
(Without Eternal Guard) and then down for awhile.

This thread is still open for contributing ideas on Bulwarks or shield mechanics?

[Cat Zangetsu]

I think Bulwarks need a skill that could produce up to 2 clones of the player in an adjacent square that last from 2-5 turns depending on stats and talent level. While the clone is active it mimics all the actions that the player makes relative to its random spawning position.

This improves tankiness and offensive output only at key moments of the battle preventing bulwark from feeling like a pew pew class but instead a stolid, stoic class that reacts appropriately when under pressure.

The clones have 2/5 the life of the player while inheriting all the other resists etc faithfully. When the clones are destroyed they can either deal damage in AoE to ALL, including the player, or they can produce a protective shield in an AoE to ALL, including the enemy.

So new skill tree for Bulwark:

Ancestral Projection

Tier 1: Energize Keepsake - through deep meditation you channel your ancestor's vigor through an old hand me down keepsake focus. Your ancestors are able to come to your aid when you are threatened by enemies' attacks. You have a 10-30% chance to summon 1-2 ancestral projections, which mimic the actions you take each turn, in adjacent squares for 2-5 turns whenever you reduce incoming damage due to a blocking action (6 turn cooldown). This skill is a sustain. And you can force a special 2x duration with +1 projection version by deactivating the sustain. (35 turn cooldown) Each time you succesfully block an attack, you reduce the 35 turn cooldown by 1. Or by 3 when talent level is 5 or above. This sustain costs 10% max life as opposed to stamina.

Tier 2: Red/Blue Memorial - target one of your ancestral projections using either blue or red version of this skill. If you choose Red, your projection will deal damage (40-120) to all in radius 3 when its HP drop to 0. If you choose blue it will produce a shield to all in radius 3 (40-120). Instantaneous casting for both. Both have a 14 turn cooldown that is reduced by 1 per successful block. Or 2 when Talent level is 5 or higher. This skill costs 20 life to cast instead of stamina.

Tier 3: Ghostly Uber Shield Mastery - You can wear a 2nd shield on your back, in your ammunition slot. Only works if you have a shield equipped in your off hand as well. The second shield is energized by your ancestor's vigor, and as such only works when their cooresponding sustain is active. This second shield will automatically block 1-5 ranged attacks depending on available charges it possesses. Every 8-4 turns your 2nd shield will regain a charge. Costs 10% max life to sustain instead of stamina.

Tier 4: Lotus Vigor - While this skill is sustained, you deal +10-25% more damage while your hp is at 150 life or below. Whenever your character would have died, instead deactivate all ancestral sustains (adding +10 turns to each cooldown), heal for (350 - 2340) life, and gain a reflective shield for up to 15 turns (350 - 2340). While the shield remains intact you are immune to stun, confusion, pins and knockbacks. Lotus Vigor has a 180 turn cooldown. Costs 15% max life to sustain instead of stamina.

[Radon26]

Very nice, except there is a problem.
This is bulwark, who is supposed to be pure warrior, with no super power, and there is no way, you could do that on skill alone.
Sooo is this magic, is this nature gift, or what? looks like borderline necromancy for me.

also, i am pretty sure our character is not Japanese, but that's a detail i guess.

[Cat Zangetsu]

Isn't arcane blade listed under warrior? I think if I had to coin a term for this power it would be [Vigor]. And if it were up to me Vigor would scale with both Willpower and Constitution. So that means the skills in Ancestral Projection would actually have Willpower and Constitution as their requirements. The actual "magic" is being performed by the ancesters, all the bulwark does is act as a focal point by accepting their gifts.

That's how I see the lore of this skill tree.

As far as the ethnicity or nationality of bulwark, I think they are a fusion of tribal wisdom and as you said Asian mysticism. Or maybe they are just a white guy who learned this stuff from a master on the highway of life.

[Radon26]

yes, but AB is SPECIFICALLY a hybrid. a combination of melee skill, and magic.
if he was in the mage tab, he would still be off, because mages are not supposed use weapons, with alchemist laughing his ass off at that.
no matter how you see it, AB is a warrior, with magic slapped on top of it, so he is put in the tab. (as is SB in rogue tab).

Bulwark is supposed to focus on heavy Armour and massive shields.
What you are proposing is out of place, and would make more sense if it was in its own class, rather than slapped into something that has absolutely nothing to do with it.

Furthermore, class, is a sum of skills and talents one have.
But what you propose, is supposedly bound to an item, and could be used REGARDLESS of whether the character trained for bulwark, or lets say, a wyrmic!

if this talent tree is implemented, there is absolutely no reason for it to be on that class, and not as a quest reward or something.

[Cat Zangetsu]

Well, I understand how you see it that way. But my intent with the class tree is that the armor and shield are not the source of a bulwark's power, instead it is their spirit and their desire to withstand the onslaught - that makes them different than just any other guy. It is the fighter's heart, that gives them strength, not the gear they are wearing, in other words.

That is why the power is derived from their own hp, because they push their durability to an extreme that is too reckless for run of the mill warriors.

As far as the the power being derived from an item, I disagree. The item doesn't do anything on its own, it has to have a worthy medium. This is the lore I have in my mind, which is partially derived from manga and anime such as Record of Lodoss War or Berserk, where a tanky character can literally cheat death whether they have armor on or not - because of the power of their will and determination. The warrior who kills the bad guy using up every last drop of strength, only to die as the sun arrises, still standing on their feet covered in arrow wounds and stuff like that.

Well anyway, I'll just let it stand on its own. I think it would be a nice addition but I'm biased.

[Radon26]

you are reading too much into it. your character isn't some "chosen one", or some descendant of a legendary hero that once saved the world (as far as we know). You are an adventurer. That means you are a heartless bastard who will murder anything in its path for shits and giggles and all the lovely loot. ESPECIALLY THE LOOT.
Being a bulwark doesn't mean they have some special desire. anyone can have a desire. bulwark has its bulk of armour.

That is why the power is derived from their own hp, because they push their durability to an extreme that is too reckless for run of the mill warriors.

uhm... that's berserker. Its the berserker that completely shuts of pain and slaughters al within sight with reckless fury and bloodlust.
Bulwark is specialised in shields, because he prefers PREVENTING getting hit entirely.

As far as the the power being derived from an item, I disagree. The item doesn't do anything on its own, it has to have a worthy medium.

And why exactly can't wyrmic be worthy huh? they use willpower a lot, and if you are making it "ancestral power", then i think they would fit far better than bulwarks.

If bulwark can inherit the item regardless of race, then even a yeek, dwarf, or an ogre could inherit it.
so, why can't there be lets say ogre wyrmic inheriting the item.

This is the lore I have in my mind, which is partially derived from manga and anime such as Record of Lodoss War or Berserk, where a tanky character can literally cheat death whether they have armor on or not - because of the power of their will and determination. The warrior who kills the bad guy using up every last drop of strength, only to die as the sun arrises, still standing on their feet covered in arrow wounds and stuff like that.

yes... you included berserker there... also, this is why i said at the begingin that i am pretty sure, your character is not Japanese.
ALSO, i fail to see, where they use kake punshin no yutsu.

tell me, EXACTLY why ONLY bulwarks inherit it. WHAT MAKES THEM SPECIAL. Why can't OTHER CLASS inherit it, and activate it?
i am not even arguing about the talent tree itself, just why bulwarks specifically?!

[Cat Zangetsu]

I think it's actually the opposite there; I think you're reading too much into what I said because I never claimed my idea of Bulwork was a chosen one. He could simply be a very talented, durable drunk person who refuses to die while in battle. On the other hand, I do think you're wrong about the desire issue becase you simply can't half-ass being a tank wearing heavy armor. You are either all in or you are not worthy to be called any class other than "scrub" class imo. So by virtue of being someone with the potential to kill the final bosses, you are already guarenteed to have something special about you. It may be a massive luck stat. Who knows, but you're not just some everyday person by definition of what the game demands you to do in it. At the same time that doesn't make you chosen, as I said, it just demands a certain level of capability that I think isn't unfair to compare to a really awesome anime or manga character.


Berserkers push their offense to the brink, my talent tree was pushing the durability. I know it's harder read all the text I wrote and to be able to understand the synergies as well as the person who wrote it - but the hp sustain costs are designed to be "investments" that you make towards a really powerful comeback ability in the Vigor Lotus. But the ability itself takes a toll on you - and that is how the recklessness of durability is represented. Lower Overall HP - but higher performance once you start stacking the ability to survive in the negative range of HP - which is how my talent tree was designed. To make taking damage a part of your game plan when building a bulwark. It is beneficial to take damage because you have invested HP into a massive safety net and bonus damage mechanism.

I stand by my design of the talent tree - and to be honest I didn't expect it to be accepted by anyone. But I had fun designing it and I think it's really cool and faithful to what a bulwark is supposed to trying to do.

As far as your Wrymic concern - Will power to commune with nature and monsters is different than will power channel ghosts. In my mind just because it's the same stat doesn't mean it is interchangable with any class.

Bulwarks are the only ones to use this ability because it is derived from both a strong constitution and the will to stand even when greatly damaged. I don't think any other class is designed to take damage. With this talent tree you are designed to perservere at low life essentially which is a unique identity. Only the bulwark makes sense for this becaseu they are literally the tank class of the entire game. The evil classes don't match because protection isn't their thing.

[Radon26]

I think it's actually the opposite there; I think you're reading too much into what I said because I never claimed my idea of Bulwork was a chosen one. He could simply be a very talented, durable drunk person who refuses to die while in battle.

That was an example. you seem to think that there is something special about bulwarks, that moves them apart from everyone else.
and i say, there isn't anything. that doesn't mean they are weak. it just mean that they aren't exceptionally strong.
You are an adventurer. You don't go around protecting people from bandits. you go to the forests to slaughter. you go to the mountain to slaughter.
you find a bandit lair? hmmm you know what, let's make a deal with this shady (literally and SB) man.
He (or she) is not exceptional. Everyone in Eyal is hardened, at least to some extend. Everyone knows that they lives may end any day, but thay have to carry on.

On the other hand, I do think you're wrong about the desire issue becase you simply can't half-ass being a tank wearing heavy armor. You are either all in or you are not worthy to be called any class other than "scrub" class imo. So by virtue of being someone with the potential to kill the final bosses, you are already guarenteed to have something special about you. It may be a massive luck stat.

sooo you just admit, that there is no reason why it has to be bulwark? ANYONE, with sufficient will would do.
let me repeat, i am not saying that the tree itself is stupid, i am saying, that there is no reason for it to be a bulwark.
i mean, take sun paladin for example.

Berserkers push their offense to the brink, my talent tree was pushing the durability. I know it's harder read all the text I wrote and to be able to understand the synergies as well as the person who wrote it - but the hp sustain costs are designed to be "investments" that you make towards a really powerful comeback ability in the Vigor Lotus. But the ability itself takes a toll on you - and that is how the recklessness of durability is represented.

i am not entirely sure whether it counts as reckless.
You come in there with a plan, heavy armoured, with decoys, and if all that fails, there is the 4th talent.
To me it sounds like you are well prepared, and can afford all the strain.

I stand by my design of the talent tree -

and i will repeat again. i don't even care about the tree itself. it sounds fine. i ask why bulwark? why are you so obsessed with bulwark, when it is so out of place.

As far as your Wrymic concern - Will power to commune with nature and monsters is different than will power channel ghosts. In my mind just because it's the same stat doesn't mean it is interchangable with any class.

aaand this time around, it is the game itself that doesn't give a flying f*** about what you think. stat is a stat, and it will apply, even if you got it for a completely different reason. I am not arguing here, its the game.

The evil classes don't match because protection isn't their thing.

considering that they are... well, evil, i doubt the ancestors would be even willing.
but then again, you are an adventurer. you slaughter a village for a little extra gold, loot, and EXP.
What, someone wants to break the world? that means MORE LOOT!!

[Cat Zangetsu]

Being an adventurer means you have the option of being a dick, it doesn't mean that being a dick is mandatory. So bulwark isn't necessarily slaughtering villagers or even willing to do so. No one forces you to take those actions in this game. As such, I don't think the fact that doing those things is possible should have much of anything to do with bulwark lore.

It's like you said, you may have been a saint before you entered the forest as Cormac, but all of a sudden u abandon all your principles in order to gain power. Or vice versa. In other words, bulwark lore can be whatever, protector, destroyer, whatever, it has no meaning once the player takes control of the character.

The reason why Bulwark and ancestral projection goes together is because Ancestors watch over their progenitor... and protect them. Usually people say that ancestors also can protect or inhabit the land so that it is fruitful for future generations. There is a theme of protection there that is befitting of the shield bearing class.

There is a willfulness to persist that is embodied by the idea of people who linger on even after death to continue to fight. This is pretty much the entire purpose of a tank in a traditional rpg party - it's like they bear the weight of the world on their shields. Whether they are good guys or bad guys they still have something in them that makes them tougher than anyone else. This is why they choose to take attacks on their shields rather than slink in the shadows or using spells to avoid the damage. Instead they grin and bear it. This is the recklessness I was talking about. A guy can train to avoid damage, or he can say, "F@#k it, I'll just eat everything they have!" That's the recklessness I'm talking about. It doesn't mean they can't be prepared.

As far as your stats argument, I did say I thought it should be a hybrid stat'd tree. For both willpower and constitution. Thus making it unique to everything else as far as stats are concerned. So there is no parellel with wyrmic or anything else.

[astralInferno]

While I think that tree is a great concept, I am, to my shock, going to have to agree with Radon here. The Bulwark is meant to be a straightfoward sword and shield class, no fancy special powers. Just martial talent.