Reworking Shield Defense

[Lubaf]

The guy in the other thread had something of a point: Bulwarks don't feel like the "most skillful shield users"--as I understand it, Demonologists and Sun Paladins use their shields as a focus for their respective magics, which should result in a somewhat different emphasis (a focus on Shield Bashes for Demonologists and augmenting your shield for Sun Paladins, respectively).

The problem, as I see it, is that the Shield Defense tree is shit. So, let's open the table to suggestions.

My first idea is a sustain that allows you to block every turn in addition to whatever else you're doing, at the cost of Stamina per turn.

My second is changing Shield Expertise to extend the number of turns you have the Block status if you use the Block talent (rather than Shield Slam) rather than boosting Saves.

Anybody else have any ideas or suggestions?

Thanks
Luc "Unblockable" French

[Jurriaan]

I think a talent where you can designate a target next to you that has a chance of receiving damage that you'd receive for some turns would be cool, call it 'Reflect Damage' for example.

[HousePet]

A sustain that let's you block regardless of what action you are taking, would be a good replacement for the Eternal Guard prodigy.

[Radon26]

yeah. i (for some time now) was thinking about a sustained talent, that lets you designate certain enemy, to put up a shield in his direction. and any attack, that comes from that general direction (passes though any of the 3 squares) is affected by block.
also, (if its possible) using a weapon would lower your shield until the next turn, unless a shield bash was the last thing that happens.
maybe reduced by 10% of a turn for every talent point.


another idea "ram". a short range [2, 2, 3, 3, 4] rush which does high shield bash damage.
possibly also does knock back, since all of your damage comes from your momentum.

actually... can "rush" be made to scale its range with movement speed?

[astralInferno]

My first idea is a sustain that allows you to block every turn in addition to whatever else you're doing, at the cost of Stamina per turn.

A sustain that let's you block regardless of what action you are taking, would be a good replacement for the Eternal Guard prodigy.

Howsabout levels in block over level 5 reduce the stamina cost, and then Eternal Guard gives you five levels in block forever? That allows you to block without shields, boosts the block power of shields you do have, and lets you keep up the 'always block' sustain for free.

...though if the block levels from multiple items stack this could do weird things to sawbutchers and stone wardens. Just my first thought.

[Sheila]

Shield Defense isn't good, but neither is anything else that they have, they're a combination of generic trees that don't synergize or work with each other.
Reworking Shield Defense alone is like putting a ribbon around an old box, the whole class needs an overhaul at this point, being one of the worst in the game and full of old non-unique trees much like Rogue and Archer.
I don't think this should be done in isolation as it's better to think of the overall concept and how the new tree would work with other new trees.
One of the problems is that block isn't great and Bulwark is a class that thematically and mechanically needs to make heavy use of it.

I personally find blocking to be tedious and unfun to use because I feel like I'm wasting a turn and don't get much out of it, I'd prefer it if it activated as a free action somewhat like double strike does w/ striking stance sustained since you pretty much never don't want to block, but rarely want to spend the turn doing only that, that's also why Shield Slam works out. Perhaps all shield hits could grant a free block for Bulwark (aka not only shield slam, but also shield bash, assault, etc or whatever comes in the future), as a talent idea for Shield Defense, this could be part of another talent. Other than that as (I think?) astral has recommended in another thread it should take less than a full turn to block, I think that'd be a good starting place and should be done to Block regardless of bulwark.

I find block always being up to be yet another a brainless defense mechanic which is what makes normal and classes like Oozemancer and Sun Paladin so easy to play since they need 0 player input or consideration, therefore I think cooldowns and SOME level of management are important.
Spectral Shield and Eternal Guard should either be a single prodigy or shouldn't exist, as they're rarely worth taking compared to other options.
Baselining Spectral Shield was another idea that could be attached to blocking/shield using or maybe Bulwark. I don't think it's great that your shield needs an ungodly good roll of resistances or 50 mag+prodigy to be able to block most damage types. A way to remedy this is; you could make incomplete blocks if your shield lacks the element if we keep this mechanic, aka everything but physical on a starting shield is reduced by x% or x+y% block value where x is base and y is scaling from talent level, which could be a nice replacement for Riposte. So for example you could block up to ~50% of your block value regardless of damage, going up to 100% if your shield has the corresponding resistance.
All else aside, I think all weapon hits should be blockable (even if not fully) regardless of its element both to make the current system more forgiving and for it to make more sense thematically with Armor. Depending on what changes are made to block, block values might need to be tweaked, but it would feedback to all shield users instead of only Bulwark. This post is just general ideas at the time of writing this.

TL;DR: Reworking Shield Defense isn't something that should be done in a vacuum as the whole class could use an overhaul.
Block sucks. Some ideas for this are making it a free/faster action, baselining Riposte, making a talent that allows you to block all damage types at reduced efficiency if your shield doesn't have the element resistance, make weapon hits blockable regardless of element (even at lower efficiency), this would feedback to all shield users and not only Bulwark.

[Radon26]

Rogue and Archer.

rogue is getting a rework from razakai fom what i seen, and i am fairly certain, all of archer's talents are archer specific. oexcept for the ones ACTUALLY generic... checked, 5 uniques, 2 rogue's and 3 common. decent score.

I'd prefer it if it activated as a free action somewhat like double strike

fairly certain double strike is NOT a free action. it still takes time to use, and it still obeys cooldown.
only if you hit something, it will be used INSTEAD of a normal melee attack.
"If you already have Striking Stance active and Double Strike isn't on cooldown, this talent will automatically replace your normal attacks (and trigger the cooldown)."

I find block always being up to be yet another a brainless defense mechanic which is what makes normal and classes like Oozemancer and Sun Paladin so easy to play since they need 0 player input or consideration.

well, my suggestion was one that would only block damage from a certain direction of a targeted enemy (automated reflexes does something similar, only extra turn instead of blocking). or perhaps place, if you targetted it instead. and it a sustain, so that also restricts you.

[Sheila]

Rogue and Archer.

rogue is getting a rework from razakai fom what i seen, and i am fairly certain, all of archer's talents are archer specific. oexcept for the ones ACTUALLY generic... checked, 5 uniques, 2 rogue's and 3 common. decent score.

I'd prefer it if it activated as a free action somewhat like double strike

fairly certain double strike is NOT a free action. it still takes time to use, and it still obeys cooldown.
only if you hit something, it will be used INSTEAD of a normal melee attack.
"If you already have Striking Stance active and Double Strike isn't on cooldown, this talent will automatically replace your normal attacks (and trigger the cooldown)."

I find block always being up to be yet another a brainless defense mechanic which is what makes normal and classes like Oozemancer and Sun Paladin so easy to play since they need 0 player input or consideration.

well, my suggestion was one that would only block damage from a certain direction of a targeted enemy (automated reflexes does something similar, only extra turn instead of blocking). or perhaps place, if you targetted it instead. and it a sustain, so that also restricts you.

I know rogue is getting a rework, and that's great! The problem with Archer goes beyond having unique trees or number problems though, they have no generic trees and lack any real tools for survival, utility, or synergy. They lack anything other than doing damage really and the tools that they do have are few and far between or fall short, which doesn't cut it most of the time, so you can't just tweak a few numbers and say they'll be okay like you could for like, doomed. Similarly bulwark doesn't have a lot of things aside from high armor, they're bad at dealing damage and they're bad at blocking/surviving damage, there's no real synergy as they're a mashup of old trees at this point, just fixing shield defense will make them better but ultimately you're sweeping dust under the rug. Therefore they need a rework.

I never said block shouldn't have a cooldown, in fact I said it SHOULD have a cooldown or otherwise it'd be up all the time severely reducing difficulty and becoming a brainless defense mechanic.
blocking damage from one direction isn't that great of a solution since you can just easily stand in a corridor, a doorway, or a hole that you dug in the wall, it's easily abusable. This isn't hard to do either, it's a very, very basic roguelike tactic.

As far as double strike goes, I see what you mean, I'm just giving an example of something similar. Double Strike is pretty much always better than your bump attack, so it frees you of having to press an additional button on cooldown, but blocking isn't always better than bumping or using another talent, therefore I think it needs to come faster and cheaper in its current state, like a talent that gives you a free shield block when you bump attack (w/ cooldown) or adds them to other shield strikes aside from just shield slam,(the latter could or could not be bulwark exclusive) but those are just my ideas .

[Radon26]

yes, sure, you can make a hole in the wall and then hide in it... most of the time.
also, most of the time you are fighting fodder, at least until you get to dreadfel. then there are all the open field fights, like ambushes, and fixed enounters. then there are also rogues with switchspots, and cultists with their vilevortex., whatever it was called.
MOST of the time, its not that much of a restriction. not always through. and i didn't intend for it to replace the block talent completely, just another talent to do it.

auto block after a shield bash, is something i can understand. although, if anyone cares about realism (there got to be SOME base, even if majority is whatever right?) it should only happen if the shield bash is the last part of that action. so assault wouldn't, since shieldbash is the first thing that happens.
or you can wave it off with "needlessly complicated, who cares.".

[Zeyphor]

I actually like that talent called block

it certainly doesn't waste a turn, it means you get valuable time for your talents, such as healing/regen infusions and rush, to come off of their cooldowns, and with the counterstrike debuff, it means you do extra damage after the block too

I also think that the change to block to make it not wear off after blocking a single attack was unnecessary, and that spectral shield and eternal guard shouldn't be changed at all, especially since stone wardens exist

[Sheila]

I actually like that talent called block

it certainly doesn't waste a turn, it means you get valuable time for your talents, such as healing/regen infusions and rush, to come off of their cooldowns, and with the counterstrike debuff, it means you do extra damage after the block too

I also think that the change to block to make it not wear off after blocking a single attack was unnecessary, and that spectral shield and eternal guard shouldn't be changed at all, especially since stone wardens exist

It gets you valuable time when... your shield has the pertaining element, very often it doesn't, or you could just use a stun, or any other of your abilities/items, or walk/movement/etc away and you get more out of your turn than blocking. Sure, it gets you bonus damage... after you spend a turn doing no damage, so I think Riposte should be part of block and we should get a cheaper block.
I think that block change is fine, considering how many times you can get hit in a turn, it'd be beyond worthless if it didn't, there's no reason for it to stop working after getting hit once... unless you think blocking a 10 damage on-hit and then getting hit by the brunt of a flurry or assault is fair or useful (it isn't)
Two nigh-useless prodigies not being touched because one out of 32 classes exists isn't really a great argument, sure it works on them, but it's still arguable whether you'd take both or either one at all, they're not that great compared to better choices which there are plenty. These are pretty much reasons not to change or improve anything ever again.

[Radon26]

yeah, as awesome as it sounds in theory, these two limits cripple it hard.

while i am not sure how to solve the elemental problem, i would suggest that the shield would either block up to the 5 times the value, OR until a 1 strong attack, that is at least equal or greater to the block value.

or well, just for the total of damage equal tot he block value is actually blocked, but i think my version is better. the x5 might be lowered though.

[HousePet]

Would be good if more enemies had Nektosh style attacks so that the choice for using Block was more than just 'is it available?' and 'will it work against this damage?'.

I'm thinking it might be nice to make it more like a damage shield that remains until the absorb amount is done, or a few turns pass, or you attack. So you could put your Shield up and move a few steps, turtle style.

[Strongpoint]

Random small buff suggestion

Shield expertise should give +% blindness resistance (blocking blinding attacks with shield) and +% disarming resistance (disarming is rather nasty for bulwarks)