Race Balance: Skeleton

[Frumple]

And as I said, the game you play is a strange and forgiving one to me. I've waited until late/end game to start trying to substantially use it before (several times!), did exactly what you described, and inevitably died specifically for it, to things that would not have killed me had the PD rune not put me a bad position. I've been trying to get PD to work for basically ever, because hope springs eternal, and for basically ever it has been paving my road to disappointment. Devil's inscription.

Also one of the reasons I've never really valued resall all that much, heh. It's definitely nice, but it's only nice until something has enough resistance penetration to cheerfully kill you through it anyway, and there's almost always one of those sooner or later, as PD runes seem to love to demonstrate more than just about anything else in the game.

Really, what I'd like to see re: PD runes is for the things to just become incapable of landing you besides something. That would have probably halved the number of times that bloody rune has killed me, at the very least.

[Atarlost]

Resist all is better than Heat Beam's pathetic damage, and Physical Wilds are the only ones you want anyway. The cooldown difference is huge as well, as is the saturation issue for Undead because they can only use Runes while living characters can do a 3-2 split to counter saturation. The only Runes that are as good as the good Infusions are Shielding and Phase Door.

... you mean controlled phase door, right? Or teleport, I guess, though that can have roughly the same problem uncontrolled PD has. Base PD is still basically a suicide button, even with all the buffs it got, and kinda' always has been -- no amount of resall is going to save you from being in the wrong place at the wrong time, heh, and there's almost nothing in the game better at putting you there than uncontrolled PD runes.

Regardless, wasn't asking about the secondary effects, but specifically the debuff stripping ones, which was what was explicitly mentioned in what I was responding to -- goalposts, and all that. I'd agree the wild has a better secondary effect than heat beam, at least (so buff the runes again!). That huge cooldown difference, though... well, I put up the numbers, though I did miss that heat beams are even lower. Best vs best is no difference at all with that noted, and it's entirely possible to find the applicable runes with a lower CD than wild infusions, so that's... not really a thing, y'know? Average tends to be higher, sure, but who actually keeps the high CD ones around? Wilds are literally the only debuff stripping inscription in the game that can incentivise that.

bpat missed the most obvious and critical weakness of debuff stripping runes: They're spells and spells are uniquely disadvantaged. Absolutely nothing can prevent you from using a wild infusion that is not on cooldown and I think they're exempt from being placed on cooldown by stuns. Runes can be blocked by silence. Other than one artifact that you probably wish you didn't have to use because it takes your light slot and gives less light than a basic lantern, there is no generally available way for undead to remove silence and silence shuts down all other generally available debuff removal options for undead.

I still say that any undead fix needs to address the problem of silence first.

[Mex]

If you want to prevent silences use a mental torque, it will prevent up to (tier level) mental effects for 10 turns.

Skelton is still trash though don't worry!

[Frumple]

I still say that any undead fix needs to address the problem of silence first.

Most of that conversation was at least partially in relation to doing something about that for runes, sure. Like I said and for what it's worth, I'd be pretty happy to get behind making any and all instant inscriptions incapable of being stopped; no way except use to put them on cooldown, use them any time, under any effect, etc. We already see this to a degree (instant stuff is usable without fail through confusion, etc.), and it'd probably be pretty nice to just make it ubiquitous. It'd even give a reason to use healing infusions :V

[HousePet]

So it appears that Skeleton is great on Normal difficulty but crap on higher difficulties. But a lot of these suggestions to fix it are going to be pretty blanket across all difficulties and NPC skeletons do not need a buff.

No I don't have any suggestions for fixes, but maybe the cause of the issue needs to be looked at, rather than the fixing the symptoms?

[Davion Fuxa]

Point being, as a status cleanser, there's not really that much of a difference.* Runes are a bit worse with everything considered, that much I'd agree on, but not really on the status stripping front, and a skeleton is not particularly worse off than a zigur follower. Trying to get across that calling them far worse is a bit o'hyperbole, y'ken? Far worse would be the difference between medical injectors and the other inscriptions when it comes to that sort of thing, hehe. Ruddy things are crazy in comparison to wilds or the offensive runes.

'A Bit Worse' might be correct if Runes (specifically the Status Cure Runes) were updated with some of the ideas here; where they are always usable (Silenced or not), had cooldowns comparable to Wild Infusions, and are made to have the same rarity as Wild Infusions (potentially along with a guarantee that Heat Beam might be in starting Rune Shops in Anglowen, or Last Hope, or Elvala).

However, the above only applies on the status cleansing front. Looking at everything else: Runes still make you hostile to Zigur Patrols, Runes don't have a Movement Infusion equivalent that gives you immunity to Stun, Daze, and Pinning type effects to give you an additional way to manage detrimental effects, and their effects (certainly Heat Beam Runes here) pale in comparison to the damage reduction Wild Infusions also give.

All and all, I stand by my Far Worse comment - specifically when looking at the whole picture, but probably still just on the status cleansing front.

And yeah, skeletons do have to build around getting a debuff stripper or two a bit (but only a bit -- it's important to everyone, wild access or not) more emphatically than living races, for when they do need something gone two turns ago. That doesn't change the fact that resilient bones is one of the best anti-debuff talents in the game, especially once it maxes out. You can't really argue with just about halving the duration of every single negative status you get, y'know? Well... I guess you can, but I hope you forgive me if I call you silly when you do

Power wise, it's easily among the top tier as racial talents go, s'just kinda' boring. I'd be pretty down supporting changing the boring, but making the skeleton stronger on that front racial talent wise is pretty iffy, imo.

While all races need to be mindful of removing harmful buffs, Skeletons have to be moreso since they are extremely reliant on Status Cure Runes to do the job. Another race, say a Cornac, could make use of Wild Infusions and Movement Infusions in addition to the Status Cure Runes Skeletons use.

Ignoring that though, Resilient Bones is useful and technically from my very first posts I made sure to keep its effects in the Skeletons Racials by moving it to the first talent. However, what kills Skeleton (and Ghoul) characters is when a really bad detrimental effect is put on that you are incapable of removing fast enough.

So it appears that Skeleton is great on Normal difficulty but crap on higher difficulties. But a lot of these suggestions to fix it are going to be pretty blanket across all difficulties and NPC skeletons do not need a buff.

No I don't have any suggestions for fixes, but maybe the cause of the issue needs to be looked at, rather than the fixing the symptoms?

Arguable, Skeletons are crap on Normal Difficulty - eliminating detrimental status effects is still going to be an issue regardless of difficulty.

In regards to suggestions here to improve them though, I wonder if some of the suggested ideas to improving Skeletons will carry over that much to improving NPC Skeletons. Going back to my first post, the first Runic Cleansing Idea I had will likely provide little improvement - whether the skeleton using the Biting Gale Rune removes one detrimental mental effect or five of any detrimental effect, if there is only one effect of Confusion on him then it don't mean much.

[Frumple]

Um, okay, disregarding the rest for the moment because I really should be in the other room, skeletons are not even remotely crap on normal right now. They're still one of the easiest races in the game to net an initial normal difficulty win with, so far as I'm aware -- between the shield and the heal, their racials bloody close to invalidate most of the game as a problem. And the bones render already fairly low duration debuffs into even lower duration debuffs, meaning you can afford to just walk off even more than you usually can on that difficulty.

[Sheila]

Something being fine on normal isn't a good reason not to make it better though as normal is the lowest denominator where everything is viable anyways (I don't consider easy something that most people play or that it matters in regard to balance anyways)

[Frumple]

Except skeleton's shields aren't just "fine" on normal, heh. They're the reason skeletons don't particularly care about the lack of infusions on that difficulty -- the amounts are such their racials alone can out shield/heal a very, very large portion of the game, nevermind what happens when you use them in conjunction with other stuff. Making skeletons better on that front would make an already comparatively very, very strong race quite possibly rather silly.

Something being very good on normal is a good reason to not make it better, or at least not better in a way that shows itself on normal (however the blazes you manage that, heh). When you're dealing with balance that's going to effect what appears to be (if the available stats are anything to go by) the vast majority of the game's playerbase, you want to keep an eye on it, yeh.

[Sheila]

Except skeleton's shields aren't just "fine" on normal, heh. They're the reason skeletons don't particularly care about the lack of infusions on that difficulty -- the amounts are such their racials alone can out shield/heal a very, very large portion of the game, nevermind what happens when you use them in conjunction with other stuff. Making skeletons better on that front would make an already comparatively very, very strong race quite possibly rather silly.

Something being very good on normal is a good reason to not make it better, or at least not better in a way that shows itself on normal (however the blazes you manage that, heh). When you're dealing with balance that's going to effect what appears to be (if the available stats are anything to go by) the vast majority of the game's playerbase, you want to keep an eye on it, yeh.

Skeleton shields are worse than just about any heroism infusion so I don't see your point there.

[HousePet]

Not true.

Skeleton shields are worse than any heroism infusion for higher difficulty levels.

On lower difficulty levels, inscriptions are weaker and Heroism is less critical.

[Frumple]

Yeah, I actually spend a lot of time playing normal. Let me spell things out a bit more: Heroism wise, on normal, the closer words would be "utterly unneeded"*, and arguably worse (or at least little better**) than most other defensive inscriptions for almost the entirety of the game -- it's not until pretty late in the game that they become particularly competitive just in terms of raw numbers to the other primary defensive inscriptions (regen, shield) with any degree of regularity. The great bulk of heroism infusions that get thrown out in my normal runs get thrown out because they just don't give as much oomph as the regen or shield inscriptions I already have.

Skellie shields will also just straight up give more shielding than heroism infusions give die_at (+stats) for most of a normal difficulty game if you're investing points as you go -- you won't find ones that can match their shields in effective health until probably the latter third to a quarter of the game*** (normal heroisms tend to top off on average in the 5-600 range, die_at wise, from what I can recall, and you'll be lucky to find one with a stat boost large enough for con/etc. to make much of a difference), and even then it'll be difficult to find one that's on par with a 6-800+ point, ten+ turn shield.

So... the "point", is that there seems to be some very bad misunderstanding of the situation on normal going on here. There, bone armor is both largely better than available heroism (or regen, or shield runes, or...) infusions for much of the game and fairly difficult for them to surpass in the late game, especially if you're running a dex class. More than that, it also builds in a guaranteed source of defense that matches or surpasses most other options for much of the game. It's already incredibly powerful, numbers and balance wise, on that difficulty. Making it moreso would probably be a bit... much. Which is what I was getting at! Now with more numbers and rambling

... also, it's not just the shields. 5/5 reassembly is around a 600 hp heal, and you're going to 5/5 reassembly because extra♪life. Comes out to somewhere in the 1200-1400 range in terms of effective HP when maxed out, bundled right into your racial talents, inscription slots free to flap in the wind as they please. There may be heroism infusions that match that on insane just about by their lonesome, but you'll be fairly lucky to find two combined that do on normal. It's much better stuff than some of y'all seem to think it is.

*Maybe one of the characters (probably over a dozen over the course of the game's development? Don't really keep count, and there's a lot that hit east and don't bother finishing) I've won on normal used heroism (and that was before the die_at was even a thing, iirc, and entirely for the unnecessary giggles), and basically none of the rest use it either. Mostly because the heroism runes just can't reliably provide as much effective HP as a shielding or regen inscription until very, very late in the game. Die_at is more or less pointless on normal, from everything I've seen, and the stats are just kinda' eh (which was the entire reason heroism got die_at to begin with ).
**Checking some insane wins, I actually hadn't realized how much of a difference insane makes for inscriptions vs. normal. We're talking 120-200% effectiveness for end-game of what you'll see on normal, so far as heroism goes, as near as I can tell... though a lot of insane winners seem to not use heroism at all, hrm.**** Seriously though, you're not going to see a 1k point heroism on normal. You're probably not going to see an 800 point heroism on normal (if you're a dex class, you will see 800 points on bone armor), if those are the numbers broadly being considered. You're likely to end up with very high end ones being maybe 6-700s, and most being 5-600s (note: This is pretty much exactly where regen and shielding will be). Also, you'll basically never find 10 turn ones -- and more than all that, it's pretty rare you ever actually use die_at, even if you have it. The damage on normal just isn't enough to have to worry about the sort of spikes that takes. Honestly, I'm beginning to see why higher difficulty players value heroism infusions so much. Bloody things apparently take off after some point, and exist in a considerably different paradigm just raw numbers wise.
***Well, you probably won't find them period until then. Heroism infusions are incredibly rare for most of the game in a normal run, though I rarely argue much for considering rarity a concern, balance wise, so long as it's not too silly. Still. One of the bigger advantages for bone armor is that it's a scaling ~200 point shield at level four, giving skeletons a faintly ridiculous amount of latitude in getting off the ground to begin with, compared with all the other races.
****Really, now I'm somewhat confused. I regularly see heroism talked up for high difficulty games, but now I'm looking at insane winners and it's more or less a crap shoot as to whether they're ending the game using one. What's up with that? Do they fall off by the end or somethin'?

[HousePet]

I have found a 900 die_at heroism infusion once in Normal.
They are rarely anywhere near that.

[Frumple]

Yeah, I've seen 'em every once in a blue moon (they almost always end up languishing in my inventory as a trophy ). Maybe one in the 800s every other game or so that makes it to high peak range, though I may be overestimating the rarity there a lil'bit. They happen, it's just very, very much not likely.

I've literally never seen a 1k point heroism in normal, though, and I've probably transmogged (a few times) more than 1k heroism infusions while playing normal, heh.

[HousePet]

So anyway, its been mentioned many times that Skeleton racials scale badly, and since higher difficulties give increased loot, maybe the simplest solution here is to increase the stat scaling on the talents a little.