Race balance: Ghoul
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Re: Race balance: Ghoul
I've had a merge request that makes Gnaw into a sustain sitting for a couple of months.
My feedback meter decays into coding. Give me feedback and I make mods.
Re: Race balance: Ghoul
... addon? Can't recall if there's already one that does that, and it'd be nice to play it and see how it works out. E: Though I guess I can just replace the game code with what you've got on the git, too :V
Re: Race balance: Ghoul
Sure I can make it an addon.
My feedback meter decays into coding. Give me feedback and I make mods.
Re: Race balance: Ghoul
Made an addon.
Would actually be good to get this tested a little more as if the numbers are a bit high, it could end up causing a Ghoul apocalypse. XD
Would actually be good to get this tested a little more as if the numbers are a bit high, it could end up causing a Ghoul apocalypse. XD
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My feedback meter decays into coding. Give me feedback and I make mods.
Re: Race balance: Ghoul
Ho, cheers. It still the same code as is on the git? If so, I don't need to restart to be able to eventually give feedback 
Re: Race balance: Ghoul
Same code.
My feedback meter decays into coding. Give me feedback and I make mods.
Re: Race balance: Ghoul
Cooee. Immediate impression on hitting gnaw level 5, then, is that you'll quite possibly need a limit on number of ghouls out and about -- I'm looking at six of the things right now, and that's after two or three died/desummoned while I was mulching the rest of this poison ivy vault whatsit in old forest. Eight up churning through one of those four honey tree vaults shortly thereafter. Just casual eyeballing says with the class I'm running to sorta' maximize chance of rot (sawbutcher!), there's probably a 2/3rds to 3/4ths (or better) chance of rotting what you hit (or at least something adjacent) before you kill whatever you hit, even if that only takes a single round of attacks, which means it's very likely whatever you kill is going to be a ghoul. Obviously enough, if you've got a lot on hand to kill, you end up with a lot of ghoul 
... on the other hand, it would be pretty amusing to leave as is. Maybe even guarantee them gnaw, too, for a proper zombie apocalypse that might not be too crazy, balance wise.
Definite knock-on effect of having the ghouls so easy to get, though... they're quite likely to end up with diseases that are a lot better than your gnaw (if more limited on an individual basis, though that matters significantly less when you're basically painting the room in ghouls) can probably manage for most or all of the game, which sorta' makes the debuff aspect superfluous once you hit tlvl 5. They also can get stun, apparently, which is definitely overkill considering how many you can have out, currently.
Actually, thinking along those lines, it might be best to guarantee the generated ghouls gnaw, but also guarantee they can't get it over tlvl 4. That way your ghouls won't be overshadowing your ghoul rot, and won't be spiraling out of control, either. Maybe a special ghoul for gnaw? Full access to ghoul talents (though maybe not retch), but otherwise nothing and a hard cap of level 4 for gnaw itself, and maybe no more out than three or four.
E: Though playing a bit more, I do have to say I'm not too sure about the retch healing buff. It was already a pretty substantial heal, in my experience, and it's possibly a little excessive with the boost. Damage and dispel bumps are definitely fine, though... neither were ever terribly noticeable, t'me anyway, so making those aspects a bit more prevalent is nice. Haven't really maxed it out or anything yet, unfortunately... it's still tlvl 1 at level 17 and dipping into nur, so I'll have to see how it scales later into the game.
E2: Ah, bit of possibly unintended behavior: If you rot and kill something that's inside a wall (a xorn, ferex), the generated ghoul will appear inside the wall, too. It... doesn't really make that much of a difference considering how expendable the things are, but it looks a lil' funny. Kinda' makes me wonder if that same behavior's happening in vanilla. Not enough to run a ghoul up and pick gnaw in the base game, but somewhat.
E3: Bit of edge case testing shows that the gnaw tooltip is slightly inaccurate. It probably needs to specify adjacent alongside melee -- attacks that project melee swings (i.e. psyshots mindstar hits, for the ones that do it the most, though anyone can via projection egos) don't seem to be able to project gnaw attacks alongside them despite most other melee-specific procs (on-hit being the big one) going the distance just fine. Actually may be something that could stand to be done to flexible combat's tooltip, too, if it uses the same behavior.
Admittedly, it maybe doesn't make the most sense to be able to gnaw things on the other side of a room, but I was definitely hoping it'd work anyway, heh. Steamtech psy shenanigans can project glove effects across a room, they should be able to send out boomerang ghoul jaws, too!
Anyway, next check is to see how gnaw procs react to temporal warden timeclones... then maybe actually check to see if sunpas can force project 'em. Possibly check with that in-testing rogue rework to see if you can throwing knife out gnaw procs. That's for tomorrow, though.
... on the other hand, it would be pretty amusing to leave as is. Maybe even guarantee them gnaw, too, for a proper zombie apocalypse that might not be too crazy, balance wise.
Definite knock-on effect of having the ghouls so easy to get, though... they're quite likely to end up with diseases that are a lot better than your gnaw (if more limited on an individual basis, though that matters significantly less when you're basically painting the room in ghouls) can probably manage for most or all of the game, which sorta' makes the debuff aspect superfluous once you hit tlvl 5. They also can get stun, apparently, which is definitely overkill considering how many you can have out, currently.
Actually, thinking along those lines, it might be best to guarantee the generated ghouls gnaw, but also guarantee they can't get it over tlvl 4. That way your ghouls won't be overshadowing your ghoul rot, and won't be spiraling out of control, either. Maybe a special ghoul for gnaw? Full access to ghoul talents (though maybe not retch), but otherwise nothing and a hard cap of level 4 for gnaw itself, and maybe no more out than three or four.
E: Though playing a bit more, I do have to say I'm not too sure about the retch healing buff. It was already a pretty substantial heal, in my experience, and it's possibly a little excessive with the boost. Damage and dispel bumps are definitely fine, though... neither were ever terribly noticeable, t'me anyway, so making those aspects a bit more prevalent is nice. Haven't really maxed it out or anything yet, unfortunately... it's still tlvl 1 at level 17 and dipping into nur, so I'll have to see how it scales later into the game.
E2: Ah, bit of possibly unintended behavior: If you rot and kill something that's inside a wall (a xorn, ferex), the generated ghoul will appear inside the wall, too. It... doesn't really make that much of a difference considering how expendable the things are, but it looks a lil' funny. Kinda' makes me wonder if that same behavior's happening in vanilla. Not enough to run a ghoul up and pick gnaw in the base game, but somewhat.
E3: Bit of edge case testing shows that the gnaw tooltip is slightly inaccurate. It probably needs to specify adjacent alongside melee -- attacks that project melee swings (i.e. psyshots mindstar hits, for the ones that do it the most, though anyone can via projection egos) don't seem to be able to project gnaw attacks alongside them despite most other melee-specific procs (on-hit being the big one) going the distance just fine. Actually may be something that could stand to be done to flexible combat's tooltip, too, if it uses the same behavior.
Admittedly, it maybe doesn't make the most sense to be able to gnaw things on the other side of a room, but I was definitely hoping it'd work anyway, heh. Steamtech psy shenanigans can project glove effects across a room, they should be able to send out boomerang ghoul jaws, too!
Anyway, next check is to see how gnaw procs react to temporal warden timeclones... then maybe actually check to see if sunpas can force project 'em. Possibly check with that in-testing rogue rework to see if you can throwing knife out gnaw procs. That's for tomorrow, though.
Re: Race balance: Ghoul
I rather fond of the Ghoul and play them quite a bit. They're probably my favorite but they are in need of some help.
My proposed changes would be:
1. The first skill is nice but I'd suggest this tweak:
Keep the max damage cap but allow for infinite (albeit reduced) scaling with category investment AND eliminate the stat bonuses entirely.
At talent level 5, grant a flat damage reduction against all types that is applied after all other effects, i.e. it is the last thing applied in the damage calculation. Have this reduction scale infinitely with constitution at 2 points per stat for first 10, 1 point per stat, up to 50, 0.5 points per stat up to 100, and 0.1 per stat over that.
This should apply to every attack, and not merely once per turn. It would equal an 85 point flat damage reduction per hit at 100 constitution.
2. I've never liked this skill but it's generally necessary to survive for a lot of classes but I still have another option to replace. Given that Ghouls are slow but persistent, make them such. Here's my suggestion:
Reduce all mental and magical status effects by 20-50% plus a flat reduction of up to 4 that is applied afterwards, i.e. duration*(.50) - 4 when this skill is maxed.
Allow this to scale with further investment in the category (but only the reduction % and not the flat reduction).
The flat reduction would start at level 2 and max at level 5.
3. Retch... I like this ability but I agree that it ought to scale with constitution. That would make it more useful at higher levels when you can get huge stat boosts from gear.
4. Gnaw... I think this ought to cause ability-failure in addition to stat reductions.
This version of the Ghoul would lack a mobility option but would be very, very tanky. You'd be reducing a lot of damage per hit and would be very resistant to magical and mental effects, with a natural means of eliminating physical effects plus an ability to cause skill-failure.
The only downside? Slow as hell. Still, that status-effect reduction would significantly improve your ability to survive at higher levels.
My proposed changes would be:
1. The first skill is nice but I'd suggest this tweak:
Keep the max damage cap but allow for infinite (albeit reduced) scaling with category investment AND eliminate the stat bonuses entirely.
At talent level 5, grant a flat damage reduction against all types that is applied after all other effects, i.e. it is the last thing applied in the damage calculation. Have this reduction scale infinitely with constitution at 2 points per stat for first 10, 1 point per stat, up to 50, 0.5 points per stat up to 100, and 0.1 per stat over that.
This should apply to every attack, and not merely once per turn. It would equal an 85 point flat damage reduction per hit at 100 constitution.
2. I've never liked this skill but it's generally necessary to survive for a lot of classes but I still have another option to replace. Given that Ghouls are slow but persistent, make them such. Here's my suggestion:
Reduce all mental and magical status effects by 20-50% plus a flat reduction of up to 4 that is applied afterwards, i.e. duration*(.50) - 4 when this skill is maxed.
Allow this to scale with further investment in the category (but only the reduction % and not the flat reduction).
The flat reduction would start at level 2 and max at level 5.
3. Retch... I like this ability but I agree that it ought to scale with constitution. That would make it more useful at higher levels when you can get huge stat boosts from gear.
4. Gnaw... I think this ought to cause ability-failure in addition to stat reductions.
This version of the Ghoul would lack a mobility option but would be very, very tanky. You'd be reducing a lot of damage per hit and would be very resistant to magical and mental effects, with a natural means of eliminating physical effects plus an ability to cause skill-failure.
The only downside? Slow as hell. Still, that status-effect reduction would significantly improve your ability to survive at higher levels.
Re: Race balance: Ghoul
I can go ahead and tell you sticking that damage reduction at the end of the calculations would break the game in half. It's exactly what mindslayers used to do with their shields, and it was completely farcical (in the best of ways, imo, but it was changed for a reason 
). From what I've seen playing around with classes and races (particularly mod ones) that utilize the effect, that is still very much accurate. Flat damage reduction at the end of that calculation is incredibly powerful. Like, we're talking it's one of the reasons mega turtles in the turtle mod can actually survive with a <30% global speed.
And... oddly enough, checking the code, it looks like retch already scales with con but doesn't say so in its description, which is rather strange. The damage aspect, at least. Coulda' sworn it actually said that in the description...
). From what I've seen playing around with classes and races (particularly mod ones) that utilize the effect, that is still very much accurate. Flat damage reduction at the end of that calculation is incredibly powerful. Like, we're talking it's one of the reasons mega turtles in the turtle mod can actually survive with a <30% global speed.And... oddly enough, checking the code, it looks like retch already scales with con but doesn't say so in its description, which is rather strange. The damage aspect, at least. Coulda' sworn it actually said that in the description...
Re: Race balance: Ghoul
That might be right but in playing, it doesn't seem like that's the case.Frumple wrote:
And... oddly enough, checking the code, it looks like retch already scales with con but doesn't say so in its description, which is rather strange. The damage aspect, at least. Coulda' sworn it actually said that in the description...
I'll have to test it to be sure but either way, thanks for the input.
As for flat damage reduction... yeah, that was kind of the point. If you take away their leap ability then they're sitting targets and thus, would need something like that.
Maybe the numbers are too big but I'm not sure the concept is unworkable... unless you're suggesting that it IS unworkable. In which case, I'd have to take a serious look at the numbers.
Re: Race balance: Ghoul
Eeeehhh... more not worth the effort of making workable, if anything. You'd probably have an easier (and significantly more scalable, difficulty wise) time doing something like a flat % shave off incoming damage, on top of the base cap that already exists. Just... before the resistance et al calculations. I'd probably say you could get away with taking 2-5% per Tlevel (probably running entirely off raw tlvl, and with no scaling at all) off the top of any incoming damage, ferex. It'd be pretty powerful, but wouldn't have quite so easy a time of completely invalidating chunks of the game if something goes odd with the numbers used.