Race Balance: Skeleton

[grobblewobble]

It's probably worth noting that Embers solved a lot of potential problems skeletons (and ghouls, really) had, since they're perfectly capable of using medical injectors, removing what amounted to the one notable weakness (difficulty cleansing silences) they had on the inscription front. Questionable whether it's worth balancing anything around, being a DLC and all, but it's a thing.

This is true to some extent. However, it must be noted that without vault abuse, gathering the required ingredients and skills is much more awkward in the base campaign than it is in the Embers campaign.

[Frumple]

Um, is it? The tinker classes I've ran in the main campaign have... not had difficulty with that. The cat point is the biggest difference, really.* Other than that acquisition of schematics, management of generics, and acquiring ingredients have been about on par with Embers runs. Only difference, really, is that you have more opportunities to buy schematics in the Embers campaign, which... considering you still kinda' trip over the things just exploring, hasn't seemed to be that big of a deal in practice.

Though I guess there is a point vis a vis having to get the escort, now that I think about it some more. Slipped my mind, pretty much every run I've had so far in the main campaign hasn't really had trouble with that. So yeah, there's that. Totally be down for the tinkers cave being a guaranteed find rather than contingent on an escort surviving, heh. Maybe even specifically for undead with the dlc -- with the change for the undead start being what it is, it'd kinda' make a sort of sense for the necro to be underneath the cave. Add a steamtech component to the start (and prolly make it so you can re-enter), make it nice and frankensteinian.

*And I won't lie, I would absolutely love to see the main campaign cost for tinker tree access made the same as in the embers campaign. Probably should go make an addon for that, now that I think about it...

[grobblewobble]

Um, is it? .. The cat point is the biggest difference, really. ... contingent on an escort surviving

Haha you already said all that I'd wanted to say.

[Davion Fuxa]

You know, after reading Parcae's idea, I wonder if it would also step a bit on the toes of what makes Ogres unique ability to get an extra Inscription slot. As an alternative idea though to what Parcae noted however, maybe instead of allowing the player to gain more Runic Slots, the talent could instead allow the player to use Runes on cooldown for 'X' turns up to Y times, at the cost of extending their cooldown duration. So, for example:

A player's Skeleton Rogue has a Biting Gale Rune, A Shielding Rune, and a Lightning Rune. He uses Biting Gale Rune to freeze an enemy and the talent goes on cooldown for 12 turns (Reduced 4 turns due to Engraved Bones talent). Soon after he gets Confused and his Biting Gale Rune is still on cooldown, so he activates Engraved Bones and uses his Biting Gale Rune, extending its duration another 12 turns but getting rid of the Confuse status.

This would change it so that Skeletons still have the same amount of Inscription slots, but they could use Runes more then normal thus mimicking the idea that they could have more then the normal amount of Inscription slots.

[Frumple]

Um, is it? .. The cat point is the biggest difference, really. ... contingent on an escort surviving

Haha you already said all that I'd wanted to say.

Eeehhh, I don't really count the cat point tbh There's not much I could think of better to unlock than full tinker access, really, even if I would rather see it brought in line with the dlc campaign, and it's not really more awkward than the regular escort talents. The escort really is a substantial issue insofar as awkwardness goes, though, especially with the idiot escorts in vanilla (it's been long enough using the addon improving those things I had almost forgotten what it was like. Until I was doing some testing with the rogue rework and got mildly confused when one of the things immediately suicided itself, heh). Yet to have problems m'self, but I can definitely see where it's a problem in general.

Re: The runes, why not just make instant inscriptions unable to be shut down entirely? Infusions or runes, no talent needed. Exempt 'em from stun, confusion (well, they're already exempt from confusion, but yeah), silence, etc., etc., etc. It'd even make a nice extra layer of difference between the core inscriptions and embers', and help out ghouls t'boot.

Vis a vis a rune locked equivalent to Ogres, I'd probably rather see an entire race built around that instead of shanghaiing the skeletons for it. Wouldn't be a bad idea for it, though. That golem that's been sitting in the game code for the last long while would be a good candidate -- then you could call it overclocking and also generate a fire AoE around you

[Davion Fuxa]

Making Inscriptions usable regardless of detrimental effects is certainly one way of improving Inscriptions, but that improves Inscriptions - not necessarily Skeletons. Sure, Skeletons (and Ghouls) will be a little bit more fun to play because Rune usage won't be as much of a pain, but the undead races will still be in need of improvement.

However, changing Inscriptions around as stated will mean that the undead races can be improved in other ways. I think those ideas would still need to be somewhat focused around improving a Skeletons situation regarding detrimental effects myself since Runes are still far worse then Infusions for removing them.

[Frumple]

... eh? Runes have been about on par with infusions in regards to debuff stripping for a while now, haven't they? Unless I've somehow missed the changes to the offensive runes being reverted, or wilds got a stealth buff while I wasn't looking. Only comparative advantage wilds have (in regards to debuffs specifically, anyway) is the chance to have more than one category it can effect, and that's frankly often as much a detriment as it is benefit, since it increases the chances of it stripping a debuff you didn't want it to. Either of them is one inscription, instant, and clearing one random applicable debuff. Don't recall the CDs being much different, either... wilds are lower (12-17 vs 15-25, 22 for gales, checking*), but not low enough you get to use them twice in a single fight very often (unless you're an ogre, anyway). So... maybe expand on the statement? Far worse isn't the words I'd use to describe the difference, yeah.

Though detrimental effects are probably the last thing I'd think skeletons need help on, other than resilient bones being kinda' boring (though that's always nice to see changes in regards to, heh). Their racial tree comes with one of the best talents in the game for dealing with those, after all...

*Maybe the other two can be brought in line with the gale runes? S'kinda' odd there's a difference, really.

[bpat]

Resist all is better than Heat Beam's pathetic damage, and Physical Wilds are the only ones you want anyway. The cooldown difference is huge as well, as is the saturation issue for Undead because they can only use Runes while living characters can do a 3-2 split to counter saturation. The only Runes that are as good as the good Infusions are Shielding and Phase Door.

[Davion Fuxa]

While it is true that a Heat Beam Rune, Biting Gale Rune, or Acid Wave Rune might be of use in stripping Detrimental effects, they have a few of weaknesses that make Wild Infusions stronger.

The first weakness is cooldown - applicable to Biting Gale and Acid Wave (Not Heat Beam, Heat Beam can have a cooldown as low as 12). As stated though, this could be fixed by simply making Biting Gale and Acid Wave have lower cooldowns ; but that also means that enemies like Armored Skeletons are going to be THAT much more annoying. More to the point though - even if you think you will not likely be using the Wild Infusion twice in combat, I guarantee that the lower cooldown makes a difference when you do (like against a Rare, a Boss, or an Elite Boss - and I will state I have used Unstoppable 2 times in the same fight against the Final Bosses in the main campaign to note just how long the fight can potentially take).

The second weakness is use - which is applicable to all the Status Cure Runes. You can use a Wild Infusion immediately at the start of combat, or after being hit by a detrimental effect. With the Status Cure Runes you generally have to get within range of enemies first in order to hit them with the offensive power they possess (so for example, within 5 tiles with Heat Beam), or after being hit by a detrimental effect.

The third weakness is Runic Saturation - and bpat pretty well nailed it in that an undead might be using 5 different Runes versus a non-undead being able to mix in Infusions which don't have to worry about Runic Saturation.

The forth weakness is rarity - finding Status Cure Runes is much more difficult versus finding Wild Infusions.

*****

As for Skeletons dealing with Detrimental Effects with their Racials - I must be missing something. Resilient Bones is the only Racial talent that does something - and that something won't mean anything if you need a detrimental effect gone two turns ago. That's why there is a pretty big emphasis for Skeletons on dealing with detrimental effects.

[Frumple]

Resist all is better than Heat Beam's pathetic damage, and Physical Wilds are the only ones you want anyway. The cooldown difference is huge as well, as is the saturation issue for Undead because they can only use Runes while living characters can do a 3-2 split to counter saturation. The only Runes that are as good as the good Infusions are Shielding and Phase Door.

... you mean controlled phase door, right? Or teleport, I guess, though that can have roughly the same problem uncontrolled PD has. Base PD is still basically a suicide button, even with all the buffs it got, and kinda' always has been -- no amount of resall is going to save you from being in the wrong place at the wrong time, heh, and there's almost nothing in the game better at putting you there than uncontrolled PD runes.

Regardless, wasn't asking about the secondary effects, but specifically the debuff stripping ones, which was what was explicitly mentioned in what I was responding to -- goalposts, and all that. I'd agree the wild has a better secondary effect than heat beam, at least (so buff the runes again!). That huge cooldown difference, though... well, I put up the numbers, though I did miss that heat beams are even lower. Best vs best is no difference at all with that noted, and it's entirely possible to find the applicable runes with a lower CD than wild infusions, so that's... not really a thing, y'know? Average tends to be higher, sure, but who actually keeps the high CD ones around? Wilds are literally the only debuff stripping inscription in the game that can incentivise that.

Saturation is more of an issue, but I've never actually noticed saturation make a significant difference for... anything, personally. Not as undead, not as AM, not as an ogre or whatev'. Either a fight doesn't last long enough for it to make a difference, I've got the tools available to work around it, or I really should have dipped out before it became a problem and deserve what's coming to me

As for rarity... eh, that could use some working on, sure. It is kinda' weird how they're just kinda' scattered around numbers wise, and probably the biggest issue so far as that goes is that the runes are mat level 2 vs wild's one... maybe the level difference, but I've never really noticed that mattering much, m'self. Actual rarity wise, though, only the gale is particularly noticeable, with the rest being barely less common than wilds (13 vs 16) and no less common than just about any other rune. And still, in practice you pretty much always end up throwing out who knows how many of the bloody things before the end of the game. They're more rare, but that doesn't mean they're actually rare, and you only really need the one (or two, if you feel like using two).

Point being, as a status cleanser, there's not really that much of a difference.* Runes are a bit worse with everything considered, that much I'd agree on, but not really on the status stripping front, and a skeleton is not particularly worse off than a zigur follower. Trying to get across that calling them far worse is a bit o'hyperbole, y'ken? Far worse would be the difference between medical injectors and the other inscriptions when it comes to that sort of thing, hehe. Ruddy things are crazy in comparison to wilds or the offensive runes.

*And technically, you could make the argument they're better on that front in particular. You can only have two wild infusions, after all, and you can fill up your entire inscription capacity with status cleansing runes :V

'Course, you only need two injectors and a tier five salve (or three) to rip off more debuffs than an entire five slot lineup of infusion and/or rune cleansers (and between artifacts and talents, can double that, ahahaha)...

===

And yeah, skeletons do have to build around getting a debuff stripper or two a bit (but only a bit -- it's important to everyone, wild access or not) more emphatically than living races, for when they do need something gone two turns ago. That doesn't change the fact that resilient bones is one of the best anti-debuff talents in the game, especially once it maxes out. You can't really argue with just about halving the duration of every single negative status you get, y'know? Well... I guess you can, but I hope you forgive me if I call you silly when you do

Power wise, it's easily among the top tier as racial talents go, s'just kinda' boring. I'd be pretty down supporting changing the boring, but making the skeleton stronger on that front racial talent wise is pretty iffy, imo.

[bpat]

I mean regular PD runes, Controlled PD sucks compared to Movement and Teleport just sucks period except in a few scenarios like the final battle. Regular PD is good because it gives insane defensive boosts.

30% resist all vs 400 damage over 5 turns is not even close. Also the rarity means getting a good Physical Wild is way easier than getting a "good" Heat Beam ("good" is in quotations because the best Heat Beam is still really bad). The cross-tier effect thing is actually a really big deal because if Heat Beam cleanses off-balance instead of a stun then you're screwed. Heat Beam has a bunch of downsides compared to Wild for one irrelevant upside, because it's not like the damage matters at all.

[Frumple]

I mean regular PD runes, Controlled PD sucks compared to Movement and Teleport just sucks period except in a few scenarios like the final battle. Regular PD is good because it gives insane defensive boosts.

The game you play is a strange and oddly forgiving one compared to the one I do, apparently I've literally never (from the day it was implemented for the first time to the latest version) had regular PD do anything in the long run (and usually the short one, too) but get me killed. All the defensive boosts in the world (well, save maybe outright no-sells, ala lightning runes or somethin', just without the similarly deadly forced movement) does nothing when it puts you beside something that can kill you anyway, heh. Agreed movement's usually better than CPD or teleport, though -- controlled PD does have several advantages (no chance of interrupt, no need for pathing, and it can go over walls, if inconsistently), but general use is definitely in movement's favor.

Though... um. Vis a vis status cleansing (already noted, wasn't talking about the secondary effects, heh) heat beam does ignore crosstier effects, at least according to the code. All the offensive runes should. If they're not, it's a bug that needs to be reported, heh. And checking again, the descriptions apparently don't say that, which probably does need to be fixed.

I'd disagree fairly substantially the rarity actually matters that much, for what it's worth. More difficult doesn't mean actually difficult, and I'unno about you, but it's been a long time since I wasn't throwing away buckets worth of low CD offensive runes over the course of a run. There's been many a day I wished I could just turn off rune or infusion generation entirely so the game would stop cluttering my chest with even junkier stuff than usual, heh. Not saying it's not a thing at all, just saying you're overplaying the difference, at least insofar as my own experiences go.

[Sheila]

I mean regular PD runes, Controlled PD sucks compared to Movement and Teleport just sucks period except in a few scenarios like the final battle. Regular PD is good because it gives insane defensive boosts.

The game you play is a strange and oddly forgiving one compared to the one I do, apparently I've literally never (from the day it was implemented for the first time to the latest version) had regular PD do anything in the long run (and usually the short one, too) but get me killed. All the defensive boosts in the world (well, save maybe outright no-sells, ala lightning runes or somethin', just without the similarly deadly forced movement) does nothing when it puts you beside something that can kill you anyway, heh. Agreed movement's usually better than CPD or teleport, though -- controlled PD does have several advantages (no chance of interrupt, no need for pathing, and it can go over walls, if inconsistently), but general use is definitely in movement's favor.

Though... um. Vis a vis status cleansing (already noted, wasn't talking about the secondary effects, heh) heat beam does ignore crosstier effects, at least according to the code. All the offensive runes should. If they're not, it's a bug that needs to be reported, heh. And checking again, the descriptions apparently don't say that, which probably does need to be fixed.

I'd disagree fairly substantially the rarity actually matters that much, for what it's worth. More difficult doesn't mean actually difficult, and I'unno about you, but it's been a long time since I wasn't throwing away buckets worth of low CD offensive runes over the course of a run. There's been many a day I wished I could just turn off rune or infusion generation entirely so the game would stop cluttering my chest with even junkier stuff than usual, heh. Not saying it's not a thing at all, just saying you're overplaying the difference, at least insofar as my own experiences go.

PD is great when used properly. If you wait until you're in an unsalvageable position and then use it as an escape you're using it incorrectly because it's unreliable and worse than all the other options as an escape. You cast it defensively and preemptively before a tough fight and suddenly you have 30%+ resall making the fight(s) a lot easier, its short cd and decent duration helps it work well with other out-of-phase bonuses as well. Smart use of PD as tactical repositioning means using it a few turns before you're absolutely screwed, much like you would haul around a psychoport torque and switch it to use it within 2-3 turns (which is why teleport is bad vs movement aside from reliability, it costs a slot!)

[Frumple]

I've tried using it that way repeatedly in the past, yes. It inevitably ends up with me losing vital positioning, ending up surrounded or beside something I really didn't need to be that particular turn (eventually ending up being things with enough penetration and accuracy the defensive boosts mean basically nothing ), and shortly thereafter dead. PD runes have been the touch of death for me since they were implemented, and I'll use pretty much anything instead of one if it's available. Sometimes even a manasurge rune, even when I don't have mana, because at least that way I won't be tempted to try using it.

Even with the boosts, I value no inscription less than I value PD runes. There's basically nothing in the game that has been more consistent in killing my characters, regardless of what gameplay changes I make to try to accommodate them. I'm pretty sure the bloody things have been more consistent in killing me than the shade used to manage when it would regularly one-shot starting characters from out of sight.

There's been times when it was pretty ridiculous. I've used track/etc. to make sure nothing else besides a sane target was around me, used PD, and ended up beside something that had somehow woken up in another part of the map and teleported to that exact spot that then killed me. This has happened more than once. When I use PD the RNG appears to bend itself to see me dead. It is the devil inscription.

[bpat]

Sheila is correct. Late game you can easily get out of phase upwards of 40% for 5 turns, which will bring you to or near the 70% resistance cap (using PD Runes early is usually a mistake). Damage resistance gets better the more you have of it (10% resist is a 10% damage reduction if you have 0% but a 20% damage reduction if you have 50%) so it makes you take less than half as much damage as you would without it. The status duration reduction is nice too, though less important since a 5 turn stun is almost as bad as a 10 turn stun. You can also use it to get out of specific tiles you need to not be in, because you have been pinned or surrounded or something. Using PD Runes when you're one hit from death is usually a mistake, I prefer to use them when I'm above 50% life but I anticipate large damage in the next few turns. PD then Regeneration will usually leave you at max health when they expire, and you will almost never die under PD and Heroism. These Runes are very difficult to use correctly but when you do, they become one of the best. The only Inscriptions I value higher than PD are Movement, Heroism, and Regeneration.