Buffing bad prodigies

[jenx]

No, balancing on normal is not like balancing on insane.
If something works on insane it'll work for sure on normal and nightmare, 100%.
If something works on normal there's no guarantee that it'll work on insane. Stealth/defense/saves are good examples of this.

Saves are critical on insane, both yours and overcoming theirs.

Defence still matters to reduce cross tier effects.

[bpat]

Can you name an example where it hasn't happened?
Has anything ever been balanced based on Insane?

Shibari balances for Insane and his Brawler design is well balanced for Normal and Insane. New Doomed category is good but not great on Normal and Insane as well. Again until you can name examples your comments are not useful. Either come up with an example or stay on the original topic.

Strongpoint that's a cool idea and I will think about how good it may be. I think that Thuggery should be removed from that list though because it's Marauder's signature category.

[grobblewobble]

I thought YSBMW already worked that way though I guess it doesn't now that I look at the wording again. It's probably still a little weak but I don't really know how to make non-passive damage prodigies good aside from straight buffing their damage. Maybe if it knocked the people hit by the primary targets in random directions too, creating a kind of ripple effect? Also a stun or something would help too.

It already applies a stun to the monsters that are hit.

If it needs a further buff after making it damage the monsters that have been hit with the monster, you could do that by increasing the range. Right now it knocks back for 6 tiles, that´s pretty short. If it knocked the "primary" back for 10 tiles AND damaged the "secondary" monsters, you could use it better as a tactical long-range beam attack. (Throw weak monsters at the boss.) I would prefer that to random directions.

[grobblewobble]

I don't have any real ideas for fixing Tricks of the Trade but perhaps it should give a secret bandit shop or something to replace the randart crafting, some kind of gold sink would be required I think. Like allow you to buy any artifact of your choice for 1000 gold per item tier. Possibly too good but it really could use the buff. Giving access to Lethality probably won't work since it's a class category but the idea is pretty cool. I'm can't think of anything that Snap would make overpowered since Unstoppable has a fixed cooldown, but I still don't think it could give Lethality since it's a class category. Maybe something else like Acrobatics?

I think it can be balanced while still giving up randarts. You just need to make it so good that it is worth that.. Having a huge pile of gold without any way to spend it is awkward, but it's not the end of the world. And randarts are great, but then again in some games you can be unlucky and get crappy ones, so.. you're basically giving up a lottery ticket. A good one, but still.

The reason why I came up with Lethality is precisely because it is a class tree. There is no reason why a prodigy cannot give you a new class tree, I think? I thought Lethality would be a pretty strong addition to many classes (that have class points to spare), because increasing critical hits and multiplier is good for anyone and snap is interesting, even if not necessarily overpowered. So my hope is that this will at least create a few corner cases where people will seriously consider giving up their randarts, which is all that's needed..

but maybe it's still not enough, idk

[HousePet]

Shibari balances for Insane and his Brawler design is well balanced for Normal and Insane. New Doomed category is good but not great on Normal and Insane as well. Again until you can name examples your comments are not useful.

Shibari altered how the difficulty modifier for Insane works, which has no effect on Normal at all. So that isn't valid.
Brawler damage reduction would be an example of something OP on normal. How is it in Insane?
The example is supposed to be something that was balanced for Insane but ignoring Normal difficulty, which doesn't end up as unbalanced for Normal. I can't think of any instance where anyone balanced something for Insane and didn't consider how it would affect Normal. But you are claiming that is what should be done and then telling me to give a counter example, which is impossible.

[bpat]

You're just plain wrong that Brawler is OP on Normal. I can make anything sound OP on Normal by saying how I'd faceroll with it. That doesn't mean it's OP though and if you think Brawler is one of the best classes on Normal you are dead wrong (doesn't come close to how faceroll Oozemancer and Summoner are).

Berserker: Nothing can kill you before Unstoppable ends and you're pretty much immune to relevant debuffs.
Bulwark: Immune to physical damage and hit like a truck with GWF and Assault. Step Up is crazy good against groups and Last Stand against single targets
Archer: Just kills stuff in a turn and Poisons debilitates enemies.
Arcane Blade: Literally oneshot everything with Flurry and autocasting Shielding Runes makes you unkillable.
Brawler: Grapple to victory, never get hit in melee.

Rogue: Oneshot from Stealth and disable with Poisons.
Shadowblade: Same as Rogue but replace Poisons with Time Shield and Essence of Speed. Also has a silence.
Marauder: Unstoppable plus Battle Tactics plus Momentum. Basically Berserker but better.
Skirmisher: Same as Archer with better defense.

Alchemist: Don't play that class so I don't know. Probably just get Golem to spam damage Runes and throw lots of Bombs.
Archmage: Wildfire and autocasting Shielding Rune.
Necromancer: Forgery of Haze with offense Runes. Spam Nightfall spells and Chill of the Grave.

I can go on but what's the point? I already covered the worst classes.

[Strongpoint]

Strongpoint that's a cool idea and I will think about how good it may be. I think that Thuggery should be removed from that list though because it's Marauder's signature category.

I actually dislike signature generic trees concept. IMO, class trees should play this role... But yes, Thuggery is the only tree that is unique for marauder and taking that uniqueness away may be a not nice step to do.

[Sheila]

Scoundrel is the unique generic tree for rogue but that didn't stop it from being in a prodigy.
Why should thuggery be different?

[bpat]

You two make a good point. Thuggery still feels a bit class-defining to me since it used to be a class category. Now that it's generic I suppose that making it more available is fine.

[HousePet]

I can go on but what's the point?

If you aren't going to read what I wrote correctly, I'm not sure why you even started.


Tricks of the Trade is such an awkward situation it could do with it own thread.

[bpat]

Edit: Removed since I was frustrated when I made this post and said some pretty uncalled for things. I still disagree with HousePet's views on balance, but I ought to do so in a more civil way.

[grobblewobble]

Windblade doesn't need any nerfs at all except making it not work without dual wielding because that seems like an oversight more than anything, it's seriously not that great.

I'm still surprised that you say so, by the way. Playing through nightmare with a marauder now and just reached level 30, im trying to figure out if flexible combat might be better than windblade. My thoughts:

- a quick test shows that the glove attack triggers much more often than 60% of the time when dual wielding, my guess is that both weapons can trigger it, but only once per attack. That makes flexible combat especially good when dual wielding.
- Even so, the extra raw damage is okay but not amazing. You really need an interesting debuff or spell proc on your gloves to get the most out of it.
- I would really like to wear gloves of dispersion, because they are awesome. But their special is 10% mana thrust, not good enough to make flexible combat really worth it.
- Marauders (and melee characters in general) are great at killing bosses but weak against crowds. An aoe attack that deals as much damage as a flurry, with a low cooldown and a large radius too, will suddenly make you very strong against crowds and seems highly practical. Also because it helps to ensure that you kill some monsters while unstoppable.

So could you please explain why you think it's not that good? Especially compared to flexible combat.. Something like Draconic Will is much harder to compare of course.

[bpat]

Windblade doesn't need any nerfs at all except making it not work without dual wielding because that seems like an oversight more than anything, it's seriously not that great.

I'm still surprised that you say so, by the way. Playing through nightmare with a marauder now and just reached level 30, im trying to figure out if flexible combat might be better than windblade. My thoughts:

- a quick test shows that the glove attack triggers much more often than 60% of the time when dual wielding, my guess is that both weapons can trigger it, but only once per attack. That makes flexible combat especially good when dual wielding.
- Even so, the extra raw damage is okay but not amazing. You really need an interesting debuff or spell proc on your gloves to get the most out of it.
- I would really like to wear gloves of dispersion, because they are awesome. But their special is 10% mana thrust, not good enough to make flexible combat really worth it.
- Marauders (and melee characters in general) are great at killing bosses but weak against crowds. An aoe attack that deals as much damage as a flurry, with a low cooldown and a large radius too, will suddenly make you very strong against crowds and seems highly practical. Also because it helps to ensure that you kill some monsters while unstoppable.

So could you please explain why you think it's not that good? Especially compared to flexible combat.. Something like Draconic Will is much harder to compare of course.

Marauder is excellent at dealing with groups since it can move from one target to the next with Step Up and you should be dropping enemies fast thanks to GWF, Momentum, and Blinding Speed or another global speed boost. Flexible Combat is under the assumption that you will be using gloves with good procs like Cripple and Dominate, which give you another dual wielding attack. Also they can apply awesome statuses. If you keep dispersal gloves on all the time then don't bother, but I prefer to swap them in as needed rather than have them always on. Windblade is fine as a second prodigy since nothing else is particularly great on Marauder but I would almost always take Flexible Combat first.

Really though, Windblade isn't that bad, it's just not that great either. It's worth considering but out of the prodigies worth considering, it's one of the weaker ones. I don't think it needs any nerfs or buffs because it's in a good spot.

[grobblewobble]

or another global speed boost.

You mean Grace of the Eternals.

Thanks for the explanation.

[Strongpoint]

I got one more idea for remaking tricks of the trade prodigy.

Here is the list of rogue's talent trees.

Technique\Dual Weapons
Technique\Dual Techniques
Cunning\Stealth
Cunning\Trapping
Cunning\Dirty Fighting
Cunning\Lethality
Techniques\Combat Techniques
Techniques\Combat Veteran
Cunning\Poisons
Techniques\Acrobatics
Techniques\Combat Training
Cunning\Survival
Cunning\Scoundrel
Techniques\Field Control

Idea is to remove all current bonuses from Tricks of the Trade and instead give the prodigy a very simple effect.

Taking it unlocks each of above if characters know them locked. It does nothing else, no plus masteries, no giving new generic trees. Just unlock trees from the list.

Rogue will get
Techniques\Combat Techniques
Techniques\Combat Veteran
Cunning\Poisons
Techniques\Field Control unlocked, making it rather good option for them giving access to all skills (tricks of the trade, remember?) and leaving free cat points for mastery\unlocking quest rewards. I do want it to be the best prodigy for a rogue

Now other classes that will get something:

Berserker and bullwark will get dirty fighting and field control trees unlocked (exactly the trees you don't want to spend cat point on because there are better options)
Archers will be another class to gain a lot, with 4 class trees opening - poisons, combat techniques, trapping and dirty fighting.
Arcane blade will get combat veteran and dual techniques unlocked
Brawler will get dirty fighting and survival unlocked
Shadowblade will get stealth and combat veteran unlocked
Marauder will get poisons unlocked (the only rogue metaclass member that will get little)
Skirmisher will get poisons, trapping and field control
Summoner will get combat veteran and combat techniques
Wyrmic and sun paladins will get combat techniques and survival

I think it can be interesting prodigy to unlock talent tress while using class points for other stuff.