Dragging Sun Infusions into the Light of Day

[Crim, The Red Thunder]

Alright, this has probably annoyed a lot of people for a long time, but lets' get it out here. Sun infusions are seldom touched by players, often used by enemies, and inflict two status ailments when they hit. Blind, which is understandable, and illuminated, which is also understandable. However, the game classes both of these as a physical ailment. And that's where it falls apart. Beyond the balance perspective, where clearing the light instead of the blind can be dangerous to you, it makes no logical sense for a freaking ring of glowing light around your character to be a 'physical' ailment. If anything, this belongs under magical, in it's effects, if not it's origins.

How much would it hurt to seriously consider shifting that from physical to magical? Furthermore, as a second discussion, what would it take to make you consider using sun infusions on your own characters more then you already do (which is seldom on many characters?)

[DaltonRaccoon]

I'm loathe to think of ways to improve Sun Infusions, mostly because enemies outnumber the player by large amounts, and the last thing I want is a dozen rogues (who always seem to have Sun Infusion) spamming superpowered light attacks at me.

A lot of people have suggested that Wild Infusion (physical) should remove both blind AND illuminate. Your idea to make the illumination a magical effect also makes sense.

[grayswandir]

Oh, if we made illuminate a magical effect, we could also make it protect you. So, while you're magically illuminated, you'd be immune to further blinding/illuminating from sun infusions. (Since you're already so bright?)

[malboro_urchin]

An interesting suggestion I saw earlier was to make illuminate a cross-tier effect; since wilds now remove cross-tiers for free, a phys wild could take care of both blind and illuminate with one use

[Effigy]

Why is illuminated even a status effect? Shouldn't it just be a local terrain effect that gives its effect to anything in that area for the duration?

[donkatsu]

It's an infusion, infusions are nature, nature doesn't do magic. But does it have to be an infusion in the first place? If you look at the classes, none of the wilder talents mention anything about the sun. Celestials outright worship the sun, and what do they get? Magic. I also see this making sense from a lore perspective. Why do Sun Paladins not use equilibrium? If nature means some sort of planetary will, then the sun is outside of that. Therefore, not strictly natural. In other fantasy universes, the sun is considered pretty natural, since almost all natural life depends on it, but maybe plants are different in Maj'Eyal?

So how about this then: sun infusions become sun runes, and illuminate becomes a magical effect. Give it the attack rune treatment, and have it remove one detrimental effect of a certain type, like wild infusions. All four of these things (light, blind, reducing stealth, removing effects) are in Sun Paladin trees so we can associate them with the sun. On the other side, vision runes become vision infusions. This thread isn't about vision runes but they're never used either, so give them +crit rate because that's useful and makes sense.

[Radon26]

spell-phantasmal already has 2/3rd of the sun infusion, while the ramaining 1/3rd is owned by the sun paladin, in the radiance tree.
no, it is not counterargument "unneeded", i am just adding to the 'make more sense as magic'.

[edge2054]

donkatsu's right. It's an infusion. It can't remain an infusion and have a magical effect.

The effect was added at a time when stealth/invis mobs (especially banshees and dreadmasters) had very few counters. It was part of a package to give melee classes a means of dealing with these monsters.

I'm in favor of either flat out removing it or making it a cross-tier effect.

[DaltonRaccoon]

I agree, that it should be changed to a Rune, and made a magical effect. The effect of the sun infusion most closely resembles the Illuminate spell, which is arcane, and most other light based abilities are similarly arcane. It only makes sense for consistency, as well as to make Illuminated a magical effect while Blinded is a physical effect (and thus you can select WHICH ability you remove with the appropriate Wild Infusion).

Unfortunately, I would still never use a Sun Rune, unless it's the very beginning of the game and I have no other light sources.

[Effigy]

What if instead of applying this "illuminated" effect it gave you an effect similar to Radiance for X turns that also reduced enemies' stealth/invisibility ratings? So it basically would be the Illuminate spell (without damage) plus the Radiance tree effects. It could be changed to a rune, I don't really care about that. This would make it good as a substitute light source in addition to blinding and countering stealth. If all we do is make it easier to remove the illuminated effect, it's still going to remain the infusion that no one uses.

[HousePet]

Just because its similar to a load of magical effects doesn't mean it should be a rune.
It could also mean the ability should be an infusion to spread it around a bit more.
Healing Infusions are similar to Arcane Reconstruction and Healing Light.

[Hirumakai]

I'm going to take up the second question, what would it take to get me to use a sun infusion on my characters:

I've occasionally used them if I find them in an early level and have not filled out my inscription set, since they're arguably better than nothing.

Issues:
1) Its first effect, lighting squares, is handled by permanent equipment and skills, namely your light source, heightened senses, and infravision. Equipment and skills are on all the time and do not take an action to use. This part is really only useful in early levels when your light options may be limited. With the addition of the equipment store in Derth, its even less needed.

2) Removing permanent darkness is a very, very situation effect. I'd much rather use a light slot which I can swap in (i.e. summertide vial) or the like for such a limited case effect. Using up one of my 3 to 5 inscription slots for this is a huge hit to flexibility.

3) Reducing stealth is also a very, very situational effect, and at high difficulties, not even enough to do anything. As it only reduces stealth, not negate it out right, its possible for this not to be worth it even against the thing its supposed to counter.

4) The blindness component is arguably the only thing which is general purpose. However, it can be saved against with the potential to actually do nothing with your turn. How many skills which apply a mild debuff, do no damage, and take a turn are there? And yes, I consider blindness a mild debuff as casters can still toss AoEs, melee can still bump into you and deal full damage.

Basically there are multiple RNG rolls involved in it actually reducing incoming damage.

Compare that to something like a healing/regeneration/shielding/wild inscription which are guaranteed to increase your health/reduce damage suffered. In the wild/heal infusion cases it both reduces damage/heals you *instantly*, but also has a second generally useful ability in removing a debuff.

At least attack runes are instant and do damage, even if their debuff doesn't work. And also has the guaranteed removal of a debuff on you.

So to get me to use a Sun Infusion middle to late game, it would need to
1) Be general purpose. I would want to use this in at least 50% of my fights, if not more.

2) Be guaranteed to do *something*. Having 2-3 rolls (save, random attack point, miss chance in melee) which may mean I took an entire turn to do nothing is not good.

3) Have the turn usage be worth the effects. There has to be a situation where I'd rather try to use this sun infusion rather than use one of my other inscriptions or skills. Instant attack runes meet this criteria by not actually taking a turn.

4) I tend to favor defensive inscriptions over offensive inscriptions since most classes do plenty of damage. Its just staying alive long enough to do that damage.


For example, if sun infusions, instead of blinding, guaranteed the next X projectiles would be negated or melee attacks miss, for a few turns that might be something I'd use. Thats what blind is supposed to do, but it would be a guaranteed buff on yourself instead of a RNG luck thing offensively trying to beat saves.

[Matanui3]

Just because its similar to a load of magical effects doesn't mean it should be a rune.
It could also mean the ability should be an infusion to spread it around a bit more.
Healing Infusions are similar to Arcane Reconstruction and Healing Light.

Healing infusions are also similar to Realign (psionic) and Nature's Touch (nature).
The point is that creating sudden light underground seems more like a magical effect, at least if you aren't starting a fire.


Of course, it's still useless as a Rune without another effect...

[edge2054]

4) I tend to favor defensive inscriptions over offensive inscriptions since most classes do plenty of damage. Its just staying alive long enough to do that damage.

4) is really the crux of the issue with all bad inscriptions.

Staying alive is just the best option and Shielding Runes, Regen, Heroism, and Healing all do this so much better than any debuffing ever will.

That said I actually use Sun Infusions early game both for debuffing and lighting up the dungeon.

[grayswandir]

Maybe add a 2-4 turn daze to it, instead of the illumination?
Maybe have a random status clear, like wild, but have it be to a specific type? Like stun, or confuse, or poison.

And again, it should probably have some sort of drop-off if you're hit with it several times in a row (like insomnia or the teleport resist or whatever), so that 8 enemies having it isn't much worse than 1. Being illuminated seems a good candidate for this.

4) I tend to favor defensive inscriptions over offensive inscriptions since most classes do plenty of damage. Its just staying alive long enough to do that damage.

4) is really the crux of the issue with all bad inscriptions.

Staying alive is just the best option and Shielding Runes, Regen, Heroism, and Healing all do this so much better than any debuffing ever will.

That said I actually use Sun Infusions early game both for debuffing and lighting up the dungeon.

The main thing, I think, is that all the existing classes were built around using defensive inscriptions. I don't think there's any class whose strongest attack is as weak as any of the offensive inscriptions, but there's plenty whose primary defense is on par or weaker than a regeneration/shielding/whatever.