About armor / weapon usage of different classes.

[Porrima]

Hello there.
Been playing roguelikes for a long time, many types of them. Started to play with ToM'E a while ago. Been liking it a lot.
Very combat-focused even by roguelike standards, but it does that very well.

Not sure if this is really a dumb question per se, but it's dumb and against the spirit of discovery in roguelikes to ask it, so I say it counts:

Of course, your playstyle matters and what stats you may get matters and so one.
But in a very general sense:
1.) Many classes seem to start with two-handed weapons in use. (Or dualwield / ranged weapon) Aside from Bulwark who wants to use a shield, is there any other classes which would prefer to use a 1-h weapon and a shield? Haven't opened other new classes besides archmage, summoner and cursed so there might well be other "obvious" ones too.

2.) Armor. Wearing more armor is generally good in life. There's this thing called fatigue, however. How much does fatigue (and the talent point / points / category point) hurt compared to the increased protection? I assume spending points to open that category isn't good, but of all the classes who already have armor training there to slap poiints into, are there any classes besides rogues who want to stealth who don't want to put at least 3 points to wear plate into it?

[tylor]

Sun Paladin, Skirmisher, Wyrmic, Arcane Blade and (DLC)Demonologist can use shields more or less effectively.
Fatigue is not that bad factor. It only increases skill use cost in terms of spell points, stamina points etc.

[Mankeli]

Porrima: If you are not aware of this, donators also get a special class called Stone Warden which actually dual-wields shields by default.

Fatigue isn't that big of a factor at all: As a rule of thumb, classes that get strength want the heaviest armour available (massive plate). Brawlers want to go light armour, however.

Anyone can buy combat training tree from Last Hope, you don't have to spend category points to unlock it.

[twas Brillig]

I've founded that I have enough trouble with Demonologists' stamina management that I prefer heavy over massive armor. When in doubt, try it and be prepared to run away if it doesn't work out. The extra points in armor mastery will still increase the bonuses you get from heavy armor, so they aren't a complete waste even if you're not going massive.

Anyone can buy combat training tree from Last Hope, you don't have to spend category points to unlock it.

Though it's worth noting that not ever build can afford the generic points to benefit from it. It may be worth it just for the ability to equip metal gloves, boots, and helmets at one point invested.

[Mankeli]

Anyone can buy combat training tree from Last Hope, you don't have to spend category points to unlock it.

Though it's worth noting that not ever build can afford the generic points to benefit from it. It may be worth it just for the ability to equip metal gloves, boots, and helmets at one point invested.

Sure, but getting combat training has thick skin too which is useful for most characters that don't want to invest in armour training nor any other skill in that tree besides that one point in armour. So getting combat training is usually, but not always (example: archmages), useful even if you want to invest zero poits in armour training.

I don't remember winning a character tha hadn't invested at least one point that said tree but it's possible.

[Porrima]

Okay, thank you.


First of all, do even highly mage type characters stay on the cloth robes, which seem to provide "caster bonuses" of a different sort, or do they too move higher up in armor?

About the strength usage, however - so far in my 5-6 test games I've placed most points in the "primary stats" which are required for talent usage, but occasionally every few levels upped other stats too in some sort of rpg-spirit. However, while there again might be a lot of different special cases why you might not, are there generally speaking any good reason to put stats in any other stat except the two or three class stats?
If there isn't, do you still generally increase strength enough to get points in there?

And save for that potential demonologist example, are there any classes which want to get heavy armor, but not massive? Any classes besides classes with stelath who want to stay in light? (is brawler even a rogue class, doesn't sound like it)

[edge2054]

Brawler is a warrior class and they can wear heavy armor just fine but not massive. Thematically the class is sort of a gladiator/boxer/sport fighter. Additionally they need to be able to move freely to punch and kick effectively.

Light armor is sorta meh. Partially because Armor Training is so nice (crit reduction among other things). But there's some nice light armor egos that I tend to use early game and some nice artifacts as well.

And I recently won wearing robes on a Temporal Warden because of the stats on the robe. That's a class that starts in leather armor but in theory could wear whatever (though fatigue hits paradox pretty hard so I don't know).

But I play on normal and I'm sure there's quite a wide difference between my perception of what works and what in fact is 'optimal' gameplay.

[Mankeli]

Brawler is a warrior class and they can wear heavy armor just fine but not massive.

Oh, yeah this is true, I forgot that they can wear chain. Good correction.

@ OP: For spellcasters (meaning classes that use ranged spells to kill things) and oozemancers, there are some pretty incredible light armour/robe options out there, like Molten Skin for wildfire archmages.

Most of the classes that kill things in melee raise strenght so it comes naturally to them anyways. Do note, that you can also pump stength up with items. The strenght requirement is only for wearing to item, once it's worn, you can have whatever strength.

Most classes have two useful main stats and the third stat you should pump is cunning (if this stat isn't already your primary stat).

For example, I've played quite a lot of archmages. I always raise as much mag per level I can. Leftovers are put in wil. Then, when mag is maxed I use all the points in wil and then when it's maxed, all the points in cun. For some classes this is not as incredibly simple, however.

[Porrima]

Thanks again.

Will have to see I guess. I don't know very much about this game yet, so it isn't fair for me to say this, but I feel it's not good if there's such an imbalance in item wear. Sure, in real life the limiting factor in not everyone wearing great armor were immense costs, but this is that kind of game where a diseased rat drops a plate armor and a sling, so there should maybe be other considerations. It irks me that something like an archer would wear massive plate. But, all game designers do their own design decisions and that's fine.

A few more additional questions in the same thread:

To consider a talent like, say, Precise Strikes. -10% attack speed, +12 accuracy, +6% Crit. These numbers are given to me, and I can make some sort of educated guesses upon them, but I don't know what they really mean. Are the plusses worth the minus? How can I know? My gut feeling (arse feeling, as the similar proverb means where I'm from) that a rogue might want to keep this on, but what about a BUlwark?

Finally, these Zigur guys are anti-magic and so on. Their flavor text even says there's nothing to fear unless I use arcane magic. Unless I'm crazy, I remember that they weren't hostile in my first game. I'm now a human bulwark. Why are they hostile to me? Because of the one (1) arcane powered item I wear? Taking it off doesn't turn them friendly. Because of the Chant of Fortress ability I learned from an escort? Because of my face?

[Effigy]

One point in Armor Training is worth it on almost any character, if only to use metal non-body armor. Like an Archmage will probably want to use Dakhtun's Gauntlets or other good metal gloves/boots/helmets.

The main reason not to wear heavy/massive armor is if you use magic resources, like mana and psi, which have doubled fatigue penalty. If you rely on stamina as your main resource, it's more of a judgment call as to how fast you're running out of resources. Sometimes running out of resources too fast is a consequence of playstyle rather than fatigue. See this page for more info.

[Mankeli]

One point in Armor Training is worth it on almost any character, if only to use metal non-body armor. Like an Archmage will probably want to use Dakhtun's Gauntlets or other good metal gloves/boots/helmets.

If only a certain ongoing madness archmage could find those beatiful gauntlets .

By default, I wouldn't skip massive plate on any stamina using classes though, excluding stealth users and brawlers. But these are just generalizations, of course, depending on drops and stuff.

@ OP Zigur patrols will hunt your character if it has magical talents, like chants, or runes.

[ekeron]

I've always thought that arcane blade would be better off with heavy armor since he uses mana as part of his fighting style.

[Mankeli]

Looking at insane and nighmare winners, people have used both light armours/robe and massive plate (and even regular heavy armour). I have a normal zero death arcane blade winner which ended up using a robe in the end IIRC but it's so long ago that I don't know if it was optimal. ABs certainly can make use of some of those great randart robes being depended on spellpower. If I'd have to guess what the outcome of like 10 characters of my own would be, I'd still say that more would pick massive than light/robe.

[edge2054]

Most of the classes that kill things in melee raise strenght so it comes naturally to them anyways. Do note, that you can also pump stength up with items. The strenght requirement is only for wearing to item, once it's worn, you can have whatever strength.

This is changing very soon. If you put equipment on to equip something else you won't be able to take off the stat boosting equipment.

[Effigy]

If that's changed, the stat requirements on items should probably be lowered a bit so you're not pigeonholed into only using specific kinds of items based on your class.