Melinda and Tropes vs. Women in Video Games

[Effigy]

Well, we already have the red skin cosmetic option. If that could be adapted for a few other skin tones, it would allow people to pick how they want their character to look. I don't think it's really necessary to change the actual character model design other than skin tone, since it's already stylized to begin with.

[Mankeli]

There certainly can be. There are now. I just think it would be a better game without them.

Ok, thanks for the response. I'm not sure what to add, Hogulus actually wrote what I was thinking better than I did and he/she didn't even have to edit his/hers post four times to make it even barely readable like I did lol. I guess I'll stick to my original conclusion which is that I don't have anything against the changes proposed either.

I really only see two valid sides to this: you want minority representation/strong female characters/what have you or you don't care about political correctness and you just want to murder stuff and take their loot. Both of these are perfectly reasonable preferences. What I find interesting is when people get all up in arms in defense of the status quo. Why is it so important to you that all humanoids must be light-skinned, or that Melinda must be a trophy? The best counterargument is "it's too much work and I don't want to bother" but most of the people in this thread wouldn't be the ones doing the work anyway. The actual reason is probably just that they feel morally threatened and the natural response to such a perceived threat is to lash out. Fight that instinct; it just makes you sound silly.

Lol, well, dividing opinions into groups that nicely fit into definitions made by one person (you) and then telling the two imaginary groups what is, or is not wrong with them is pretty much the antithesis of what this thread was about. Surely there are positions in the middle too, I'm not sure that even the ones that normally don't care about political correctness would like to play an openly racists game, for example. Also you completely disregarded every comment about the general presentation of women in ToME which is topic I find very interesting (other people have posted about this too). You basically just said that other people who don't agree with you are stupid, I'm not sure this is the best way of writing a metapost in the lines of "what's going on in this thread".

In addition, who has said that he/she doesn't want to code anything related to this? Also, even the ones that have raised question about whether or not Melinda quest has some larger implications about the presentation of women have advocated for a change in the quest. I've thought for a long time that the quest is a complete mess and I don't really do it ever anymore. There is no payoff to do it and it's not very interesting quest anyways. For me, the quest doesn't currently exist. I can't speak for anyone else, but for me, I'm interested in the why this needs a change -the reasons behind advocating for a change and the arguments that are used in doing this. From my perspective, the end result certainly can't be any worse than the current situation: the current situation being, once again, that the quest doesn't exist.

[donkatsu]

Lol, well, dividing opinions into groups that nicely fit into definitions made by one person (you) and then telling the two imaginary groups what is, or is not wrong with them is pretty much the antithesis of what this thread was about. Surely there are positions in the middle too, I'm not sure that even the ones that normally don't care about political correctness would like to play an openly racists game, for example. Also you completely disregarded every comment about the general presentation of women in ToME which is topic I find very interesting (other people have posted about this too). You basically just said that other people who don't agree with you are stupid, I'm not sure this is the best way of writing a metapost in the lines of "what's going on in this thread".

The two groups are not imaginary. You can either care a non-zero amount, or you can care a zero amount. Every amount of caring falls into these two categories. You cannot care a negative amount. I don't know why you're so perturbed by this, acting like it's some wildly subjective value judgement. If you don't normally care about political correctness but you think ToME is openly racist and you don't want to play it because of that, that is called caring. And if me saying that both caring and not caring are reasonable positions is grievously offensive to you, then I'm sorry. Please feel free to elaborate on why they are unreasonable.

In addition, who has said that he/she doesn't want to code anything related to this?

No one has said it. That's just the best, and really only possible reason for not doing it, whether you care or not. If someone does want to do it, then there is really no reason to stop them. That is the only unreasonable position. That for whatever reason it is vitally important that things remain as they are.

Try breathing. No one is judging you. Relax, and maybe read a little slower.

[grobblewobble]

The two groups are not imaginary. You can either care a non-zero amount, or you can care a zero amount.

I care an imaginary amount.

About the skin tone discussion. There is a simple reason why all humanoid species in ToME are currently white: ToME is based on lore that originates (roughly) in ancient Scandinavia. In that time and place only white people lived, and this is the reason no other skin colors are represented in the lore. (This may be easy to overlook from the point of view of modern-day US, where all skin colors are represented.)

That said, sure, why not add more options to character creation.

But if we go that way, we'll need to be consistent and include bear fur too. *ducks tomato*

[Zonk]

What I find interesting is when people get all up in arms in defense of the status quo. Why is it so important to you that all humanoids must be light-skinned, or that Melinda must be a trophy? The best counterargument is "it's too much work and I don't want to bother" but most of the people in this thread wouldn't be the ones doing the work anyway. The actual reason is probably just that they feel morally threatened and the natural response to such a perceived threat is to lash out. Fight that instinct; it just makes you sound silly.

It's perfectly possible to think that 'minority representation' while a laudable goal could end up being done in a way that feels forced or odd and makes immersion less meaningful - like, again, the possibility of nonhuman races suddenly having all the skin colors humans can have.
Or that it could result in less 'creative freedom'.

Making the fantasy world more similar to the real one does make it easier for a lot of people to fit in/identify with their character which is good... but it DOES make it less fantasy.
(Granted, Maj'Eyal is already somewhat 'generic' as settings go as it's not based on one specific myth. It has elves, dwarves, halflings, demons, magic...with 'twists', true. But it's not the most original setting EVER as much as like it.)

And I say that as someone who is not really opposed to changing some stuff (Melinda especially, skin colors a bit less so).

Try breathing. No one is judging you. Relax, and maybe read a little slower.

Earlier you wrote about people 'feeling morally threatened' : which sounds to me like you are saying people are feeling like they are being accused of racism.
Since you described this 'threat reaction' reaction as non-positive ('it makes you look silly', well, isn't that implying these people ARE racist in some way, even if just unconsciously?

I'd consider that a (negative)judgement.
If that's not the implications you meant to make, can you see how it's easy to read it that way, as in 'People who don't want the change must be racist or sexist in some way'?

As for the work argument - I think some people might be implying that the time spent working on this could be spent on other good things for the game by the developers/graphical artists. It's not an intrinsically bad argument, although of course it's the developers/artists who should chose what they consider the best use of their time anyway.

I say we make every skin-tone purple and be done with it, but the suggestion that it's purely for the sake of political correctness is unfair. The "caucasian" as default is not insignificant if you're not white.

I assume you are joking and bring up an intentionally 'absurd' example, but I actually *like* the idea of making the Maj'Eyal humans look so different from RW humans that they do not 'match' to any real world group.

Granted, I would not make them purple (just me, but I feel purple is a silly color), but it might be interesting if they looked 'universally exotic' or if they looked like an uniform mix of all realworld ethnicites. Of course that's quite hard to do conceptually and graphically..

THAT I would consider an interesting improvement on always being white or having a lot of ethnicities which just happen to match real world ones. Would be 'fairer' while also keeping (and in fact, reinforcing) the fantasy part of the world.

[donkatsu]

It's perfectly possible to think that 'minority representation' while a laudable goal could end up being done in a way that feels forced or odd and makes immersion less meaningful - like, again, the possibility of nonhuman races suddenly having all the skin colors humans can have.
Or that it could result in less 'creative freedom'.

That, specifically, I think is a weak argument. There's no reason for everything with human skin color to specifically have caucasian human skin color besides, as I already mentioned, and as you just expounded, inertia. Tradition is not a good reason either, or else we would still be quaffing potions. Fear of poor execution can come when there is actually any execution to be had.

Earlier you wrote about people 'feeling morally threatened' : which sounds to me like you are saying people are feeling like they are being accused of racism.
Since you described this 'threat reaction' reaction as non-positive ('it makes you look silly', well, isn't that implying these people ARE racist in some way, even if just unconsciously?

Not at all. It's implying that they're responding rashly based on gut instinct. This is a phenomenon that comes up all the time in these sorts of discussions. It feels really bad to feel like you're being accused of racism, and that has nothing to do with whether you're racist or not, subconsciously or whatever. In fact, the effect is probably magnified if you're NOT racist. The result is that the person feels angry and this leads to all sorts of crazy things like belittling the perceived attacker or dismissing them as extremists. It's called do-gooder derogation and it happens to good, rational people through no fault of their own. It looks silly, like slipping on a wet floor and landing on your bum, but that doesn't mean you're stupid.

This exchange got sort of sidetracked into the race issue, which is auxiliary to this thread, but the same concepts apply to Melinda, just in different ways. She doesn't have to be some sort of weird sex trophy, so if even a handful of people would like to see it changed and at least one person is willing to put in the effort to actually change it, why not?

[Zonk]

That, specifically, I think is a weak argument. There's no reason for everything with human skin color to specifically have caucasian human skin color besides, as I already mentioned, and as you just expounded, inertia. Tradition is not a good reason either, or else we would still be quaffing potions. Fear of poor execution can come when there is actually any execution to be had.

I agree on that there is no good reason for all humans to be white. Especially when the human culture is not even particularly 'nordic', 'caucasian' or similar to the European Middle Ages .

What I am saying is that having all sort of human skin colors and ethnicities *at the same time* for NPC (for PC there is some more flexibility, we do have all kind of exotic custom sprites) even where it does not QUITE make sense can damage immersion and lore.

You could have all humans look african/black, or asian, or native american or only have a very few similar-looking ethnic groups..as long as it makes sense considering the game history and geography which yes, I know, can be changed.

It feels really bad to feel like you're being accused of racism, and that has nothing to do with whether you're racist or not, subconsciously or whatever. In fact, the effect is probably magnified if you're NOT racist. The result is that the person feels angry and this leads to all sorts of crazy things like belittling the perceived attacker or dismissing them as extremists. It's called do-gooder derogation and it happens to good, rational people through no fault of their own. It looks silly, like slipping on a wet floor and landing on your bum, but that doesn't mean you're stupid.

Some people in these kind of discussions imply that when someone is accused of racism, any attempt at 'defense' is actually evidence of furher racism.
Good of you not to be one of them (I don't think they would EVER say that its easier to get angry at this if you are not racist, in fact they might vehemently object) and sorry for the misunderstanding then.


But again can you see how it is VERY easy to see some counter-arguments as accusing people of being racist? Even if the racism accusation is done as 'conservativeness for its own sake'.
So it's a fairly natural reaction and I don't think it's particularly irrational - the 'I am being called a racist' reaction, not the insulting/belittling which is bad, of course.

I do agree there has been some of that here - references to 'political correctness/social justice gone wild' which IMHO were exaggerated.

What I am saying is that there are reasonable, non-racist reasons (or 'conservative')reasons to not have every real world ethnic group represented in Eyal.

This exchange got sort of sidetracked into the race issue, which is auxiliary to this thread, but the same concepts apply to Melinda, just in different ways. She doesn't have to be some sort of weird sex trophy, so if even a handful of people would like to see it changed and at least one person is willing to put in the effort to actually change it, why not?

I 100% (maybe 99% )agree that Melinda could use a change and is well, awkard. She's a trophy more than a 'real' character
It's just that gender is one thing, race is another, so I don't think comparisons work very well here.

If Melinda was not there, or if she had a random gender, or if you got to save BOTH a male and a female (I don't think anyone suggested that?) and then pick your love interest I don't think it would be odd. Things would be gained, nothing would really be lost.
Men and women are females are everywhere, after all, it doesn't have much to do with location.

But if suddenly there were people of all human ethnicities wandering around in say, Derth and Last Hope, that would feel...out of place to me? Too modern, I guess.
And yes, I do know there were multi-ethnic empires like Ancient Rome, but it's pretty obvious this is not the case for Eyal.

It would feel more like you're wandering in a real world city rather than an actual fantasy town, really. I suppose you could argue that still falls in the 'tradition for its own sake'.

Sure, you can have multi-ethnic fantasy settings which work VERY well but doing it Maj'Eyal feels a bit weird to me. I am not even saying it can't be done in a decent way, it just would need A LOT of work and writing to look like it makes sense.
(Would have been way better if it had been multi-ethnic from the start, of course. Which would in my opinion could have worked way better if Eyal was, well, bigger, and had way more human towns.).

[Mankeli]

The two groups are not imaginary. You can either care a non-zero amount, or you can care a zero amount. Every amount of caring falls into these two categories. You cannot care a negative amount. I don't know why you're so perturbed by this, acting like it's some wildly subjective value judgement. If you don't normally care about political correctness but you think ToME is openly racist and you don't want to play it because of that, that is called caring. And if me saying that both caring and not caring are reasonable positions is grievously offensive to you, then I'm sorry. Please feel free to elaborate on why they are unreasonable.

You can, for example, care a 0 amount at the moment and you can care an X amount of some threshold level of unsensitivity Y is achieved. I don't think your classification simply was granulated enough to actually capture what was going on in this thread. I didn't say your classification was false per se. One can have classifications like "either you don't or you do" or "you are either with us or against us" in probably every area imaginable but the fact that the classification is not false per se doesn't necessarily mean that it has much value as an argument. Especially if you portray the other people as ones who just "sound silly".

Try breathing. No one is judging you. Relax, and maybe read a little slower.

Sure, but I didn't think that your post that I quoted was about me in the first place (at least not mainly)! So I'm not sure if I was able to get my point across.

I simply didn't appreciate the tone which I thought was patronizing regardless of who it was meant to. Implications of "being morally threatened" are such that if they are made one should 1) have the decency to quote the people and the parts of the posts that you feel are subjected to "being morally threatened" and 2) have credible arguments in support of your view. I feel that you clearly were being judgemental but I don't think being judgemental is always a bad thing if you have some valid arguments.

[HousePet]

Since when does skin tone equal ethnicity?
I've also never considered Melinda a trophy. Maybe she likes hanging around in an ancient fortress of a long dead race because its cool, or she has an interest in archaeology?
Melinda has one of the most developed character of any NPC in the game. Any shortfall in her personality is not a deliberate design choice, just a simple limit of how much work has been put into it.
The same for the races all being light skinned. They are just the same image with different heads. Its not like there are multiple options which are all white. There is only one option, so it has to be neglecting other skin tones.

Seriously, stop overthinking these things and contriving offense at it. This is like looking at an ink blot and declaring the artist is racist. (slight exaggeration)

[0player]

Oh my god it finally turned ugly!
Thank heavens, my hope in humanity lasted undestroyed for whole 2 days, I needed a reality check.
Guys, when bears are going to play the actual game, then we'll consider adding bears. Seriously, the point of representation isn't justice, it's representation.
It might be a little hard to understand being the default race/gender/sexuality in the majority of western-world games, but you could at least try.
When you're not really considered "normal" in real life for no apparent reasons, AND this translates to your favourite vgame, things get harsh.

Seriously, stop overthinking these things and contriving offense at it. This is like looking at an ink blot and declaring the artist is racist. (slight exaggeration)

I don't think the blame is being thrown around? Unless it is, in which case I'm glad I haven't read through these walls of text.
The talk is about areas of the game that could use some love. There are plans to give them love. And people try to turn this thread into Reddit.
P.S.(A.): stop using the phrase "political correctness", please. 1) it's 20 years old; 2) it's not about politics; and 3) it's not about being correct.

EDIT: I also genuinely don't understand how can you be so strongly opposed to people wanting more options for character creation. Why? You clearly are worried about something else than interface clutter.

[spottedshroom]

I've also never considered Melinda a trophy. Maybe she likes hanging around in an ancient fortress of a long dead race because its cool, or she has an interest in archaeology?

That's exactly the kind of thing I'd like to see reflected in the actual game lore. As-is, I agree she feels rather trophy-ish.

[Mankeli]

I've also never considered Melinda a trophy. Maybe she likes hanging around in an ancient fortress of a long dead race because its cool, or she has an interest in archaeology?

That's exactly the kind of thing I'd like to see reflected in the actual game lore. As-is, I agree she feels rather trophy-ish.

If this is the route to go then maybe she gives benefits from selling items or something? Lorewise it could be justified that now you know true value of items so that merchants can't rip you of and/or she can use her knowledge which she has gained by researching the Sher'Tul Ruins to improve your transmog chest?

This way, there would be more payoff to actually do the quest to justify the difficulty of the guest.

Good idea yes/no?

[Delmuir]

I assume you are joking and bring up an intentionally 'absurd' example, but I actually *like* the idea of making the Maj'Eyal humans look so different from RW humans that they do not 'match' to any real world group.

Granted, I would not make them purple (just me, but I feel purple is a silly color), but it might be interesting if they looked 'universally exotic' or if they looked like an uniform mix of all realworld ethnicites. Of course that's quite hard to do conceptually and graphically..

THAT I would consider an interesting improvement on always being white or having a lot of ethnicities which just happen to match real world ones. Would be 'fairer' while also keeping (and in fact, reinforcing) the fantasy part of the world.

No. Why would I be joking? I'm a little glib, and purple is a silly color, but the premise is totally sincere. I agree with you.

The Melinda quest is mildly irksome to me because it's just so tone-deaf. It doesn't fit and I don't like it. Does it necessitate a discussion on gender roles and sexism? No. If I want that, I will literally just go into the office next to mine.

However, it could use some work and I would encourage those who can code to open discussion with those who can write stories. The overlap is not that common which is why these tropes exist: they're easy, and that's okay. Not everyone is good at everything but justifying them any other way is dubious.

The same holds true for race. All of the races are white because the author of the original artwork is probably white and never gave it a second thought, and it was easier to do one color. That's not a bad thing, or good. It just is.

Now, if someone thinks it an issue, that's also not a bad thing, or good… but the reality though is that no one wants to be guilted, shamed, or threatened into something. If this issue matters to someone then they need to either code it themselves or ingratiate themselves into the community and convince someone else to do it.

You don't see me complaining when no one likes my ideas, ha ha… which by the way, I have another Necro… just kidding!

Melinda has one of the most developed character of any NPC in the game. Any shortfall in her personality is not a deliberate design choice, just a simple limit of how much work has been put into it.
The same for the races all being light skinned. They are just the same image with different heads. Its not like there are multiple options which are all white. There is only one option, so it has to be neglecting other skin tones.

Seriously, stop overthinking these things and contriving offense at it. This is like looking at an ink blot and declaring the artist is racist. (slight exaggeration)

It's a point well-taken about Melinda… but it's also the cause of the problem. The more fleshed out the characters, the more issues like this will arise.

The same is true of skin-tone. No one is asking the skin-tone of an ASCII character, etc. More story, graphics, quality, means more discussion of the "why."

I can practically SEE you bristling at the suggestion… trying so hard to make it not matter but you're missing a critical point. It wasn't a random choice that just happened to make everyone look European and white. It was the likely choice of the author because this kind of game and setting derives from and appeals to just those people.

It does matter but just because it matters, doesn't mean it's bad or good.

If the authors and coders of this game want to make a point of showing multiple races, fine. That's on them. If someone wants to make an add-on, go for it.

If they don't, that's also fine.

However, their freedom to do with their product as they please is not the same as it not mattering. I encourage you to stop trying to minimize it as though race isn't a noteworthy factor in the life of a lot of people, including its representation in popular media, or specialty media. Not everyone who points out race is a histrionic opportunists. Sometimes, it matters.

[donkatsu]

I didn't say your classification was false per se.

I'm pretty sure you called them imaginary groups. Imaginary, as in not real, as in not true, as in false.

Implications of "being morally threatened" are such that if they are made one should 1) have the decency to quote the people and the parts of the posts that you feel are subjected to "being morally threatened" and 2) have credible arguments in support of your view. I feel that you clearly were being judgemental but I don't think being judgemental is always a bad thing if you have some valid arguments.

Targeting specific people would be much, much worse. Also, there was a lot of it and I didn't have time to quote all of them, even if I was feeling mean-spirited enough to do so.

If you've never realized that this is a thing, and you're looking for credible evidence, here's a research paper from Harvard on said psychological effect. You sound like the kind of person who would find this interesting.

[Mankeli]

Ok, I managed to produce one actual suggestion to improve the Melinda quest but now it's back to the metadiscussion land, bare with me please.

I'm pretty sure you called them imaginary groups. Imaginary, as in not real, as in not true, as in false.

I meant that the groups are imaginary in a sense that they don't really exist in the real world but only as your classification. I meant that they are not false in a sense that people who have been pigeonholed in to one category really do exist even if the definition of the group they are said represent doesn't fully incorporate the plurality of their individual positions on this matter.

I think something may have been "lost in translation" when I wrote the imaginary part, I'm not a native English speaker as you may have noticed.

Targeting specific people would be much, much worse. Also, there was a lot of it and I didn't have time to quote all of them, even if I was feeling mean-spirited enough to do so.

Well, differences of opinion on this can be a matter of cultural differences too. [Warning: generalization] In my culture, people tend to say things clearly and face-to-face if it's possible in way that sometimes can be interpreted even being blunt and rude. So let's agree that we tend to work differently on this matter and leave it at that.

If you've never realized that this is a thing, and you're looking for credible evidence, here's a research paper from Harvard on said psychological effect. You sound like the kind of person who would find this interesting.

I am, and I've been for some time, perfectly aware of the existence of this phenomenon. It's funny, I have actully seen a city counsil discussion about vegetarianism that used some of the arguments (or "arguments" because they were too weak to be called arguments) listed in this very study.

However, I've read enough Popper to be critical about thought constructs that make claims of explaining everything (and hence are forever irrefutable even in theory). And this is BTW really at the heart of what I felt what was problematic in your post: You implied that every position that you think is unwarrented can be explained by "feeling morally threatened". Your exact words were "the actual reason is probably just that they feel morally threatened and the natural response to such a perceived threat is to lash out. Fight that instinct; it just makes you sound silly." So basically it sounded like the thought construct of "being morally threatened" is enough in its own right to explain all the opinions you don't like.

The quoted part was the part I found, and still do, find a tad offensive. And I believe I wasn't the only one. I think these kind of generalizations can be interpreted as a fallacy. All differences of opinion between the positions you deem warranted and unwarranted in this thread really cannot be recuded to be of a result of a one single phenomenon. Also, even the very positions themselves were introduced and decided by you! I'm not saying the phenomenon doesn't exist, I'm saying that it doesn't explaing the things in the order of magnitude you claim it to. I'm sure Julia Minson didn't mean that because a backlash against a "moral minority" was found in her study that means that the moral minority is always right. Some claims, be it about gender equality or vegetarianism, can be justified, others can't.