Rethinking Mages 2: What should elements have in common?

[Atarlost]

The discussion from part 1 (http://forums.te4.org/viewtopic.php?f=39&t=43509) is trending towards what I consider step 2 of planning so I guess it's time to start this thread. That thread is for how they should differ. This is for what they need to have in common to be interchangeable.

The baseline assumption is that single element builds should be possible for any of the five classical elements that have two trees.

The base tree obviously must start with a basic 3 or less cooldown attack. Every advanced elemental tree ends with a damage boosting and resistance penetration talent. Those are set in stone I think. I also think that the killer apps need to all be in the same place, but am not sold on which tree it should be in.

Additionally, every element except air has a killer app. Arcane, Earth, and Water have Disruption Shield, Stone Prism, and Shivgoroth Form in the 4th slot of the base tree. Fire has Cleansing Flames in the third slot of the locked tree. I think this should be made consistent, either at the end of the basic tree or in the first slot of the locked tree. I suspect Thunderstorm was intended to be Air's killer app and if so it follows the pattern set by Arcane, Earth, and Water.

Arcane, Fire, and Earth all have some sort of area spell in the third slot of the base tree. Air has it in the second slot. Fire has them in both the first and second slots. Arcane's isn't much of an area spell, but it does explode if you kill the recipient and therefore sort of fills the mook busting role.

Fire, Water, and Earth all have a utility spell in the second slot of the base tree. Arcane has it in the first slot. Air has it in the third slot. For every element except Arcane and Air it is also an attack.

Aether, Stone, and Water all have an elemental form spell. One of these is also its element's killer app, but that could be changed.

Looked at another way, Aether, Stone, Wildfire, and Storm all have offensive enhancers. Aether and Stone's elemental forms are cooldown reducers and Wildfire's Burning Wake and Storm's Hurricane put riders on other spells in the element.

Which of these commonalities should be preserved or made universal and which should be discarded? Should the elemental killer apps be at the end of the base tree like Disruption Shield so everyone can get at them or in the locked trees like Cleansing Flames so they're limited availability?

[HousePet]

Obviously they should all start with a low cooldown basicish attack spell, though I don't think it needs to have a cooldown as low as 3, but 6 would be the absolute maximum.

Keeping the mastery talent at slot 4 in the advanced category is good.

I would say that each category must have one great trick or synergy in it. Since a synergy requires more than one talent, you can't say where it should be for each case.

All they really need in common is that they are all usable and decent.

In addition, it would be good to ensure some synergy between elements. Currently Water should synergise with Storm via the Wet debuff (but Water is awkward at the moment). I think we should aim for each category to synergise with one other at minimum, preferably not with advanced categories synergising with a second advanced category.

[Delmuir]

I generally don't think the elements should necessarily have that much in common at all.

I'm probably the contrarian on this but I don't think every element demands an early attack spell, or any offense at all… necessarily. I rather like that some elements are weaker than others in one category but might make up for it in another.

I like that earth/stone has a lot of defense… I just with it were better so that it could compete against temporal or disruption shield.

To me, the balance is the problem, not the forced utility. After all, if every element has similar features then they're interchangeable. To that end, I actually think the elements should have very, very little in common at all.

What I think all of the elements should have in common? SYNERGY!

I think the elements should have cross-over effects with each other such that using combinations of elements could produce unique effects such as "steam" damage (steam is hotter than boiling water after all) when you layer water spells with fire.

Every element should have cross-over effects with every other element, predicated on the order of layering OR just a natural synergy such as "one reduces freeze resistance and the other freezes, etc."

That's what I'd like to see them have in common…

[Atarlost]

I generally don't think the elements should necessarily have that much in common at all.

I'm probably the contrarian on this but I don't think every element demands an early attack spell, or any offense at all… necessarily. I rather like that some elements are weaker than others in one category but might make up for it in another.

I like that earth/stone has a lot of defense… I just with it were better so that it could compete against temporal or disruption shield.

To me, the balance is the problem, not the forced utility. After all, if every element has similar features then they're interchangeable. To that end, I actually think the elements should have very, very little in common at all.

What I think all of the elements should have in common? SYNERGY!

I think the elements should have cross-over effects with each other such that using combinations of elements could produce unique effects such as "steam" damage (steam is hotter than boiling water after all) when you layer water spells with fire.

Every element should have cross-over effects with every other element, predicated on the order of layering OR just a natural synergy such as "one reduces freeze resistance and the other freezes, etc."

That's what I'd like to see them have in common…

This is pretty much the exact opposite of my desired direction. I want to make the single element builds you see in non-named NPCs the default. That means getting rid of explicit synergies and making all elements stand on their own.

[Delmuir]

This is pretty much the exact opposite of my desired direction. I want to make the single element builds you see in non-named NPCs the default. That means getting rid of explicit synergies and making all elements stand on their own.

To each their own, and if you're just looking to make an add-on, I wish you best of luck. However, I would be very disappointed to see the game go in that direction.

[Atarlost]

This is pretty much the exact opposite of my desired direction. I want to make the single element builds you see in non-named NPCs the default. That means getting rid of explicit synergies and making all elements stand on their own.

To each their own, and if you're just looking to make an add-on, I wish you best of luck. However, I would be very disappointed to see the game go in that direction.

There's so much room for accidental synergy that baking more in will either make multi-element completely overpowered or single element builds nonviable.

Just as an example, you can use arcane eye to look into a room, high level auger to cut a diagonal path through which a minimum of threatening enemies can see you, LOS snipe with fireflash, and then plug the gap with stone prism while burning wake wears down the survivors. Or just use multiple elements to have multiple LoS sniping spells. Or the simple synergy between disruption shield and high mana consumption spells. Or between fireflash or earthquake and the stun/freeze immunity reducing conditions.

The only way you won't be able to make a multi-element build is if access to each element is restricted by an alchemist infusion style sustain. The alchemist already has that shtick nailed down. I want there to be options to not make a multi-element build.

[HousePet]

Synergy between elements and making mono element builds great aren't mutually exclusive.
Mono element builds already have the benefit of stacking only one type of damage boosting equipment.
There is already inbuilt synergy between the base element category and the advanced category.
Either way, you will need to invest in two different categories and you do have enough points to invest in four.

[Delmuir]

Synergy between elements and making mono element builds great aren't mutually exclusive.
Mono element builds already have the benefit of stacking only one type of damage boosting equipment.
There is already inbuilt synergy between the base element category and the advanced category.
Either way, you will need to invest in two different categories and you do have enough points to invest in four.

I couldn't agree more.

Mono-element builds already have a big, built-in advantage: damage stacking. However, there is an easy solution to the notion that mono-element builds are lacking… increase resistance penetration based on talent point investment in the single element rather than just the mastery skill. Stack the penetration like mind power bonus on Cursed gloom effects… every point in a fire skill WITH mastery grants 1% resistance penetration. That alone would encourage people to skip multi-element builds and invest in the weaker skills in their single element as they could survive on one element alone, seeing as how no enemy would be immune.

Of course, that's only 40 talent points… 8 for disruption shield… you still have 22 points to spend… maybe temporal, light, etc. Ultimately, pure single element builds are essentially impossible without a third category for each element.

Multi-elements builds don't have such a bonus but building in natural synergies between all of the elements should allow for a wide-range of flexibility, especially with the randomness of gear.

The fear of natural, OP combinations is an overblown one to me as it's a matter of competency on the deliverable versus concept. As I imagine it, every element should work in some combination with every other element such that the play style of the Archmage changes with each combination.

[HousePet]

Could also make certain super useful talents not stand alone.

[edge2054]

Cross tree synergies are fun I agree. I like trees having internal synergy too. Adds a lot of tactical depth to the game when you have to consider what order you use your abilities to get the most benefit.

[Atarlost]

One doesn't have to branch out from a single element until high level if at all provided it stands alone and doesn't have one point wonders. You can spend 20 on arcane, 20 on aether, 13 on meta, 6 on temporal and that's 59 points. With the elixir of focus that will take until level 45 by my count. Metaflow I think can take another 3-5 points and essence of speed 6 including the prerequisite. The dispel from meta the name of which escapes me at the moment can take another 2 for stripping more sustains off bosses. That'll give you places to invest right up to 50. The trees that antisynergize with meta will actually need to branch out, but still only need to do so in the late game if all the skills benefit from investment. If temporal goes away as I'm contemplating it would be replaced by another non-elemental locked tree that would still have some sort of advanced shield. I'd like to see Phantasm get more worthwhile as well.

Cross tree synergies are fun I agree. I like trees having internal synergy too. Adds a lot of tactical depth to the game when you have to consider what order you use your abilities to get the most benefit.

These things just happen. You don't have to deliberately design stuff that will emerge naturally. Let's say you have a fire/water build. Your ability use matters a lot even with no deliberate synergy and only one instance of one spell reinforcing the other.

Let's say you have a current fire/water build. Order matters even though there's no explicit synergy except tidal wave wetting. Let's even assume you're fighting someone outside tidal wave range to remove that. You still have choices that matter. You can open with Freeze so that you can walk into range of tidal wave and ice storm and possibly risk winding up in melee or you can open with Flameshock to debilitate, or you can just start nuking away with Flame, Fireflash, and Freeze if you think that will kill it before it can do anything back that opening with something debilitating might have prevented. At shorter ranges you get to decide if you want to set up regeneration through Shivgoroth Form and Glacial Vapours or wet with Tidal wave as well. There's also the issue of making best use of the low cooldown high damage Flame while also putting up the DoTs that make up most of your area damage when you're too close to use fireflash safely so as to get the most out of them. Also whether to hold off on flameshock until tidal wave reaches more enemies, and probably other interactions as well. I'm quite sure the tidal wave-flameshock interaction was never contemplated by the designers. If it were it would have been made an exception because it's silly. Not only does the order still matter, it's not obvious which is best because it wasn't designed in deliberately.

Explicit synergies make for fiddly classes and overlong tooltips and make any builds the designer didn't think of and support bad. There is no solipsist build that uses disruption but doesn't 5/5/1/5 it or dabbles in dream hammer.

[edge2054]

I agree phantasm could use some love. I'd love to see more classical illusion tricks here. A Mirror Image spell that lets you swap places with an image on your turn and drop AI aggro comes to mind. Invisibility I think could be rethought and would probably work better as a timed effect rather than a sustain. Illuminate is really really good. I don't know if it needs to be that good or not but it's kinda carrying the tree right now.

Blur Sight and Phantasmal Shield I'd merge. I'd also have Phantasmal Shield deal damage to targets without Phantasmal Shield in a small radius on death so that it would synergize well with Mirror Image.

[HousePet]

If you had spent category points to unlock Meta and Temporal, I'd say you branched out from using a single element (thematic element, not damage element).
And since you get more than 20 class points, it appears that branching out from a single element is only possible to avoid by dying.
You can still focus in a single element by investing mostly in that element; just because you have grabbed some other spells that support your main element, doesn't mean you aren't doing a mono element build.

[0player]

I would add that Flame, Manathurst and Lightning are consistently taken at level 3-4 in practically all Archmage builds since they're quite good. Ditto Flameshock (excellent utility) and more often than not, Pulverizing Auger. So single element is very much defied and will continue to be if trees have good-on-its-own spells -- and if we want early game to be suvivable, we need such spells.

[donkatsu]

Why are people taking Lightning on single-element, non-Air builds? Manathrust you always get 1/5 in because it's on the way to Disruption Shield, but there is no reason to take Lightning, which doesn't unlock anything useful, has no utility, and crap damage if you're not stacking +lightning damage.